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Elric
Guest
I agree.
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Alisa
Guest
Thank you, Urban Hermit, for your comments. I’m not condoning homosexual acts, by any means. I’m just suggesting that those of us who have not walked in the shoes of others might have a little compassion for the things they struggle with.
Maybe we’ll have snow soon in Seattle!
Alisa
Maybe we’ll have snow soon in Seattle!
Alisa
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rlg94086
Guest
LOL…I didn’t check your profile to see “what kind of person would be ‘soft’ on the ‘sins’ of others.” I checked to see what your background was, so I didn’t make an assumption that you are Catholic. As a Catholic, it is easy for me to point out my understanding about Catholic teaching. If someone is atheist (for example), I don’t expect them to have the same viewpoint on sins as a Catholic. I know that the Orthodox are quite close in most doctrine, but I am not familiar enough that I would assume we are the same.
BTW…you could say I am “soft” on the “sins” of others. I don’t treat my fellow sinners different. I only challenge them, if they claim that certain sins aren’t sins. We all have personal failings, but IMO we should acknowledge they *are *failings. We also should support laws which are in line with our faith (i.e. no civil unions, no gay marriage). Tolerance should not go to the point that we decide that everything is relative.
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Pug
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That’s exactly what I meant.
We’ve all managed to stay charitable enough and somewhat on topic for nearly 1000 posts, and the topic is “gays” (a difficult topic). I think that’s really nice.
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Alisa
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It’s even more complicated than that, rlg. I was Catholic my entire life until I converted to Orthodoxy 12 years ago (without my husband and children). Now I am in the process of returning to Catholicism. So I know the Catholic Church well, but I am participating in Catholic Answers to acquaint myself with any changes which may have occurred since leaving the church. Sorry, but I still feel, and always will, that the sins of others are for them to take the consequences for, plus or minus. We grown-ups must make our own decisions. For what it’s worth, that is my opinion. It’s different, of course, with children, who must be brought up the correct way by their parents.
Nor would I appreciate anybody pointing out to me the errors of my ways (and there are plenty of them!).
Alisa
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rlg94086
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I guess we will have to disagree. To me, if I have a big booger hanging from my nose, I would prefer that someone tell me that I have a big booger hanging from my nose rather than expecting me to see it and take care of it myself. Sins are like boogers.
(Edit: just to clarify…I will take care of the booger myself, but I need to know it is there.)If it weren’t for people explaining to me that artificial contraception was a sin and why it is a sin, then I wouldn’t have changed on my own. The Church tells us we are to fraternally correct each other. I think it is important.
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Pug
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I think in those cases where we have an obligation to warn someone that we ought to warn them. (I know, basically a truism). I just wanted to explain the reason for the bible quote, though. A person’s hands are clean (or maybe unbloody?) if they have met their obligation to explain or to warn or to teach.
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Pug
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Thanks! But your example was more universal.Okay…much more eloquent than my example.
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blessedtoo
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Alisa,
There can not be more than one Truth. People may “feel” differently about what is true, but that will not change what is objectively true.
When I lived as an active homosexual, I “felt” I was fulfilling my “truth”. To do so, I had to deny that which I had always KNOWN to be truth and create my own interpretation. But my “feelings” or “beliefs” could not change what is and always will be objectively true.
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blessedtoo
Guest
True compassion is guiding those we love to their rightful places in Heaven. It is not compassionate or loving to allow someone to remain locked in sin, knowing that their eternal soul is in danger.
For me, I want to hang out with my loved ones in Heaven. I don’t want to imagine that I may have missed the opportunity to help them get there.
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ozmatt
Guest
lol this thread is just too long to read it all… but please find my opinion on this different thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201054
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=201054
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rlg94086
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lol…we probably covered your opinion about 900 posts ago. Even if someone is ‘born with’ a predisposition toward a sinful act, that wouldn’t change the requirement to abstain from that sin. There is a more definite link to a pre-disposition to alcoholism. Such people are expected to abstain from alcohol. Would you hold your same opinion if they find that pedophilia, murderous rage, etc. are found to have a genetic factor?
We also discussed the possibility that SSA could be ‘cured’, once the cause is known. There are all sorts of ‘natural’ disabilities that we have cured and/or are working on cures. If you take God out of the picture, it is pretty obvious that same sex attraction is objectively disordered from a biological standpoint. Therefore, it would make sense to correct the attraction, if science can find a way to do it in a humane manner.
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TMC
Guest
I have a number of problems with the way the Church handles this topic, but there is one in particular that I think applies to the way this conversation has developed. There have been many assertions that all unmarrieds are called to chastity, and because gay people can’t be married they must be chaste, just like single heterosexuals. But the truth is that gay people are not treated the same as umarried heterosexuals. The most chaste gay person is still the object of derision and ridicule – this thread proves that if nothing else.
But it is more than that. Most Catholics I know will say that premarital sex between heterosexuals is wrong, but will accept that its going to happen and seem to just accept that these kids will eventually settle down, be forgiven their youthful indiscretions, and move on. I know that some of the more conservative don’t see it that way, but most Catholics do, and many clergy feel the same way. But homosexuals that give in to the same urges are severely castigated.
Individuals that admit to SSA but assert that they don’t act on those feelings are not treated the same as chaste heterosexuals. They are met with general distrust, in my experience. The Church requires that hey prove their chastity for a period of time to be presented for ordaination. They are sometimes not trusted with children (as if a chaste homosexual is even somehow more likely to be a problem than an active heterosexual.) Rather than being told that they are holy for their sacrifice, they are told that they are disordered. We say we love them but hate their sin. Do you know how that comes across to many?? We can love you in theory, but what you are disgusts us. That is what is heard.
When people do things we don’t like - we accuse them of being gay. When a gay Catholic does something good and holy (like Father Judge) we deny he was ‘really’ gay.
We don’t do this to divorced people (although I have heard that the Church used to and maybe some parishes still do.) We don’t act like this towards those that contracept. We certainly don’t carry on like this about fornicators. They all get a place at the table (go ahead and deny it, you know its true). But not gay folks. There sin is safe to condemn – maybe because its a sin we know we will never be in danger of committing?
Any homosexual person that stays in the Church is carrying a huge cross and is greatly to be admired. We need to reach out to gay people, admit they have been treated badly, and bring them back into the fold. If they stumble and sin, they should be treated no differently than single heterosexuals. This would not require changing anything but attitudes. I think if the Church kept its current teachings, but the Church (both officials and lay people) simply treated homosexuals with the respect and dignity that the Church already teaches they are due, it would be a HUGE step forward.
But it is more than that. Most Catholics I know will say that premarital sex between heterosexuals is wrong, but will accept that its going to happen and seem to just accept that these kids will eventually settle down, be forgiven their youthful indiscretions, and move on. I know that some of the more conservative don’t see it that way, but most Catholics do, and many clergy feel the same way. But homosexuals that give in to the same urges are severely castigated.
Individuals that admit to SSA but assert that they don’t act on those feelings are not treated the same as chaste heterosexuals. They are met with general distrust, in my experience. The Church requires that hey prove their chastity for a period of time to be presented for ordaination. They are sometimes not trusted with children (as if a chaste homosexual is even somehow more likely to be a problem than an active heterosexual.) Rather than being told that they are holy for their sacrifice, they are told that they are disordered. We say we love them but hate their sin. Do you know how that comes across to many?? We can love you in theory, but what you are disgusts us. That is what is heard.
When people do things we don’t like - we accuse them of being gay. When a gay Catholic does something good and holy (like Father Judge) we deny he was ‘really’ gay.
We don’t do this to divorced people (although I have heard that the Church used to and maybe some parishes still do.) We don’t act like this towards those that contracept. We certainly don’t carry on like this about fornicators. They all get a place at the table (go ahead and deny it, you know its true). But not gay folks. There sin is safe to condemn – maybe because its a sin we know we will never be in danger of committing?
Any homosexual person that stays in the Church is carrying a huge cross and is greatly to be admired. We need to reach out to gay people, admit they have been treated badly, and bring them back into the fold. If they stumble and sin, they should be treated no differently than single heterosexuals. This would not require changing anything but attitudes. I think if the Church kept its current teachings, but the Church (both officials and lay people) simply treated homosexuals with the respect and dignity that the Church already teaches they are due, it would be a HUGE step forward.
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rlg94086
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Very well written TMC. 
As you explain, this is a failing of individuals, not Church teaching. I agree with your statements, even though I haven’t experienced all of them them myself. I have not known anyone in the Church in the last few years (since I turned more orthodox myself) who claimed to be gay and/or struggling to live chastely with SSA, but I have experienced the ‘acceptance’ of people who are knowingly sinning in other ways as you mentioned.
I will say that our priest does strongly teach against contraception, fornication, etc. (more so than homosexuality, because those sins are more prevalent); and, I am certain he gives proper counsel in Confession based on my own experience and classes he has taught about sin during Faith Formation. However, as you say, people who raise their voice about contraception and divorce during these classes are not ostracized.
I think the same treatment should be given to people with SSA - clear teaching, engaging in discussion, but let them work out their sins in fear and trembling like the rest of us. Confession is the place for these things to be worked on. Perhaps that is what needs to be urged the most. I know it is off-topic, but many have noted that there are a large number of Catholics who receive the Eucharist regularly but rarely, if ever, go to Confession.
As you explain, this is a failing of individuals, not Church teaching. I agree with your statements, even though I haven’t experienced all of them them myself. I have not known anyone in the Church in the last few years (since I turned more orthodox myself) who claimed to be gay and/or struggling to live chastely with SSA, but I have experienced the ‘acceptance’ of people who are knowingly sinning in other ways as you mentioned.I will say that our priest does strongly teach against contraception, fornication, etc. (more so than homosexuality, because those sins are more prevalent); and, I am certain he gives proper counsel in Confession based on my own experience and classes he has taught about sin during Faith Formation. However, as you say, people who raise their voice about contraception and divorce during these classes are not ostracized.
I think the same treatment should be given to people with SSA - clear teaching, engaging in discussion, but let them work out their sins in fear and trembling like the rest of us. Confession is the place for these things to be worked on. Perhaps that is what needs to be urged the most. I know it is off-topic, but many have noted that there are a large number of Catholics who receive the Eucharist regularly but rarely, if ever, go to Confession.
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urban-hermit
Guest
I guess we will have to disagree. To me, if I have a big booger hanging from my nose, I would prefer that someone tell me that I have a big booger hanging from my nose rather than expecting me to see it and take care of it myself. Sins are like boogers.
If it weren’t for people explaining to me that artificial contraception was a sin and why it is a sin, then I wouldn’t have changed on my own. The Church tells us we are to fraternally correct each other. I think it is important.
That was funny, rlg - thanks for making a good point and making me laugh at the same time. God bless you and yours!
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goofyjim
Guest
Again I ask why should we have to “cure” something that is not sinful. It is only sin that needs to be eradicated not all disorders.
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Elric
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Apparently its bad.
It seems to be up there with cancer, autism, MS and other things that we are trying to research/cure.
I honestly would not be suprised if someone came out (no pun intended) and said it was contagous, although the idea of a bunch of Homer Simpsons running around saying “He didnt give you gay did he?” is quite funny.
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rlg94086
Guest
Since when does something have to be sinful in order to be cured? It is good to fix/cure a disorder. As far as “having” to…that is a different question. My brother’s birth defect doesn’t have to be fixed. He opted for some of the surgeries/corrections, but not all of them.
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