your opinions on gays

[LittleDeb]

It seems to be up there with cancer, autism, MS and other things that we are trying to research/cure.

And that’s a bad thing? My believing that curing SSA would be an amazing break-through and worth the time is a bad thing? Hmm. How selfish of me.

 

[Pug]

Again I ask why should we have to “cure” something that is not sinful. It is only sin that needs to be eradicated not all disorders.

We do not need to fix everything that is broken/imperfect. For example, you do not need to have a sterilization reversed. That seems like a broken type of situation. Also, you are not obligated to have an operation to straighten your legs if you are born with crooked legs. Some fixes are pretty traumatic and don’t always work and may be overly burdensome. Other fixes are much easier and I think more likely to be employed.

You put “cure” in quotes like that, however. This says to me you might be trying to say that there is nothing wrong with disorders so they don’t benefit from fixes. Unless a disorder brings a peculiar advantage along with it, I’d expect them to benefit from fixes, so long as the fix is easy enough. Maybe a peculiar advantage would be a photographic memory or some other unusual feature of a syndrome.

 

[Elric]

And that’s a bad thing?

Truthfully, yes.

My believing that curing SSA would be an amazing break-through and worth the time is a bad thing?

Making out that SSA/homosexuality is such a horrible thing (on par with cancer ect) is a bad thing.

Hmm. How selfish of me.

Yes it is frankly. Honestly why should it bother you if a person is attracted to their own gender, why should they have to ebe cured of that?

Whats next, cureing people who are liberals?

Or Muslims?

What about people of different ethnic origins and have different coloured skin?

 

[Kevin42]

While the desire of the same sex is not sinful in itself (unless one is lustfully indulging), it obviously demonstrates some degree of attachment towards sin. While it may always be the “thorn in the flesh”, and most likely is not curable like a disease, it is good and well for people to try and minimize it IF possible, through prayer. That being said, I agree that therapy is not and should not be mandatory.

On a personal note, if there was some magic pill that could “cure” the same-sex desire, I am not sure I would take it anyways. This cross, through God’s goodness, has bestowed many blessings upon me. It has taught me virtues which I certainly am in need of, such as compassion, sympathy, empathy, kindness, gentleness, respect, mercy, sensitivity, courage, strength, endurance, and dignity. It forces me to maintain a relationship with our Lord in prayer. It has given me suffering to rejoice in, and share with Jesus. I have learned to rejoice in God’s mercy and love, and give Him thanks always. If I were to have taken a pill several years ago to “cure” this disorderly desire, what of these might I have missed out on? I will simply stick to prayer. If God so chooses to lift this burden from me, I will give thanks and glorify His name. If he chooses to leave this thorn in my flesh, I will give thanks, and glorify His name.

 

[LittleDeb]

Truthfully, yes.

Making out that SSA/homosexuality is such a horrible thing (on par with cancer ect) is a bad thing.

Sadly, then you don’t understand. I put it on par with MS. Something that probably won’t kill you outright, but is very difficult and painful to live with. Also it is a disorder many people have and yet few people (who don’t have it) recognize it for the great cross it is.

Yes it is frankly. Honestly why should it bother you if a person is attracted to their own gender, why should they have to ebe cured of that?

Whats next, cureing people who are liberals?

Or Muslims?

What about people of different ethnic origins and have different coloured skin?

Bother me that they are attracted to their own gender? Who’s reading what into whose statement?

While not SSA myself, I cannot even begin to count how many friends I have who are. But, I have suffered deep physical illness my whole life. I never chose my illness. It has both genetic and environmental causes. I too have been made fun of and ostracized for something I have. I don’t want anyone to suffer for something that is beyond their control. Not a single person I have ever known has said that they would freely choose to have their SSA. There is nothing wrong or offensive in wanting to cure something that no one would want to have. Cancer, MS, SSA, Autism, Migraines, Endometreosis, Fibromyalgia…etc and so on. (The last three are my disorders.)

Politics, religion, and ethnicities are NOT disorders, no matter how many people try to tell you they are. Everyone I know of those categories: my liberal friends, my Muslim friends, and my friends (and family) of other ethnicities would freely choose those even if they hadn’t been born into it. (Gee, kind of like me being a conservative, Catholic, and Italian. )

 

[LittleDeb]

Kevin,

You have just belied my statement that no one would choose to have SSA

I think though that you view it much the same as I have come to view my physical illness. While not a path you would have wished to have, God has brought you closer to Him through your particular trial. This particular cross has helped make you who you are. Same with my physical illness. God took something I didn’t want and brought forth good.

I someday hope I can also write about my rape in as eloquent a way as your previous post. God bless you!

 

[Tim_Hayes]

The real problem and it is statitically driven, and factual as far as statistics allow is that those who are inclined towards homosexuality are extremely likely to sexually abuse those under the age of consent, the rate of sexual abuse upon young men by men is almost as high as sexual abuse of young girls by men, the real problem being that homosexuals supposedly account for between 1-3% of the population and heterosexuals the reamining amount.

So if we use 3% as the number then do the statistical maths about the percentage of abusers amongst the homosexual.

Now of course most sexual offenders are serial offenders, so clearly not every homosexual will be an abuser, but the odds are so high, that never will I knowingly allow homosexuals to have dealings with my children, on a social or work atmosphere.

That is the real proble here and when we talk sin it is no different from those who commit other sins, for eg if you know someone has a high chance of lying, then naturally enough yu guard against being caught out by such a person.

The real sad fact is that we are all sinners and so we should be as friendly as we can be to those who are sinners, however we must always use prudence.

If any one does not believe the risk that homosexuals are, then one can simply do an honest investigation to themselves and see what is the chances.

I use to investigate those who were sexually abused as youngsters and there is an extremely high prevelence for those who are homosexual to have been sexually abused by homosexuals.

Not only that there have been various studies done for eg about the living of boys in a household where there is no father and the stats certainly indicate that for some reason those in such households have a greater tendancy towards being homosexual.

For thos ewho car to study humanity you will find that despite the way we are born or “inclined” to be, it is the environment of life experience which actually pushes people down various paths.

Let me give you an example, when a young male boy, prepubescent, is sexually abused in some sort of supposed loving relationship and before he is aware of the “morality of sex” or otherwise, he will simply experience sexual enjoyment, becasue something is occuring that of itself is pleasurable (ejacualtion) and knows not that it is wrong.

So he is in a relationship that is conditioning him. Until one day he learns that it is not normal and then you can imagine what goes on inside the poor boys head when he finds out that something he has historically found pleasureable is wrong.

That my friends is why just about all those who are homosexual are those that have been abused.

 

[rlg94086]

Making out that SSA/homosexuality is such a horrible thing (on par with cancer ect) is a bad thing.

I wouldn’t put it on par with cancer. SSA would be more like an impairment - a birth defect (if SSA is found to be genetic). We correct those all the time. If someone is near-sighted, for example, they can possibly get it corrected with a laser treatment. Who wants to go around near-sighted because it’s “natural” and “the way God made me?”

Now, there is risk involved in any of those fixes, and I could see someone not wanting to take the risk of getting their SSA repaired if the possible side-effects were not worth it.

Again, I will use my brother as an example. He had his feet straightened several times when he was growing up, so he could walk like everyone else. Doctors also offered to straighten his wrists when he was a teenager (they are bent similar to someone with palsy), but if they did it his wrists would be fused. That would mean he would lose most of the freedom of movement he had. The straightening was more for aesthetics - so he could shake hands like everyone else. He said, “forget it! If they don’t want to shake my hand as it is, who needs them!”

So, I could see someone faced with the possibility of a fix for their SSA reacting the same way.

Whats next, cureing people who are liberals?

Or Muslims?

What about people of different ethnic origins and have different coloured skin?

That is just ridiculous. None of those things are impairments/birth defects.

 

[LittleDeb]

Now, there is risk involved in any of those fixes, and I could see someone not wanting to take the risk of getting their SSA repaired if the possible side-effects were not worth it.

Again, I will use my brother as an example. He had his feet straightened several times when he was growing up, so he could walk like everyone else. Doctors also offered to straighten his wrists when he was a teenager (they are bent similar to someone with palsy), but if they did it his wrists would be fused. That would mean he would lose most of the freedom of movement he had. The straightening was more for aesthetics - so he could shake hands like everyone else. He said, “forget it! If they don’t want to shake my hand as it is, who needs them!”

So, I could see someone faced with the possibility of a fix for their SSA reacting the same way.

You bring up a good point here.
I am thinking more like an overall cure for cancer, or MS, or SSA, a more preemptive cure. Not the “undergo chemo till your hair falls out even if it won’t work” kind of cure. I do agree with goofyjim there. Narth is expensive and might not work, or do more harm than good. That is not the kind of “cure” I am talking about.

I think I like your analogy to your brother’s disorder better than mine to MS. Good job.

 

[Elric]

Sadly, then you don’t understand.

Since I am not homosexual of suffer from SSA, how can I?

On the same token, how can you?

I put it on par with MS. Something that probably won’t kill you outright, but is very difficult and painful to live with.

The pain and difficulty isnt a part of homosexuality, its mainly societies opinion that you are not normal and the stigma attached to what apparently a homosexual is. There is the difficulty of comming to terms with being homosexual and that can be extremly painful, but most of that is believing that there is something wrong with you.

Also it is a disorder many people have and yet few people (who don’t have it) recognize it for the great cross it is.

MS is a disorder like that yes (my father suffers from a very similar thing to MS) but I dot think that homosexuality/SSA complies with that.

Bother me that they are attracted to their own gender? Who’s reading what into whose statement?

Just going by what you wrote.

While not SSA myself, I cannot even begin to count how many friends I have who are.

Yet you would want to “cure” those friends and essentially change them.

But, I have suffered deep physical illness my whole life. I never chose my illness. It has both genetic and environmental causes. I too have been made fun of and ostracized for something I have. I don’t want anyone to suffer for something that is beyond their control.

You know how you do that?

You educate society about such things so that they understand.

The school where my son goes to has a boy who has Autism Spectrum Disorder, he only just started school this year. I honestly thought that the boy would get picked on by the other kids because he is different and does things in a different way to everyone else, but it has been the exact opposite.

The class teacher as well as the principal and other educators teach the children about his differences and make the kids aware of his condition, the kids (especally in his class) actually go out of their way to help him (like helping him pack his bag, reminding him what they are doing, making sure he goes where he is meant to go and even comforting him when he is upset or overwhealmed by what is going on). He gets invited to birthday parties and is invited to play with the others at lunch time (one of the girls even has a bit of a crush on him). He also does maths 4 years ahead of his level.

Not to play the sympathy card, but I have a mental illness that nearly cost me my life and I have suffered the torment of others becuase of it. There are a few physical side effects that make things difficult and make things uncomfortable for me in public and to tell you the truth, I wouldnt wish this on anyone.

I agree with you about not wanting people to suffer because of things that are beyond there control, but I think that a lot of that can be fixed by awareness and education.

Not a single person I have ever known has said that they would freely choose to have their SSA.

Yet I do know people like that.

There is nothing wrong or offensive in wanting to cure something that no one would want to have. Cancer, MS, SSA, Autism, Migraines, Endometreosis, Fibromyalgia…etc and so on. (The last three are my disorders.)

I hate getting migraines.

Politics, religion, and ethnicities are NOT disorders, no matter how many people try to tell you they are.

Thats the problem, who is to say what exactly classifies as a disorder?

For a while being black was a “disorder” and lets not go into the events of WW2.

Everyone I know of those categories: my liberal friends, my Muslim friends, and my friends (and family) of other ethnicities would freely choose those even if they hadn’t been born into it. (Gee, kind of like me being a conservative, Catholic, and Italian. )

 

[goofyjim]

We do not need to fix everything that is broken/imperfect. For example, you do not need to have a sterilization reversed. That seems like a broken type of situation. Also, you are not obligated to have an operation to straighten your legs if you are born with crooked legs. Some fixes are pretty traumatic and don’t always work and may be overly burdensome. Other fixes are much easier and I think more likely to be employed.

You put “cure” in quotes like that, however. This says to me you might be trying to say that there is nothing wrong with disorders so they don’t benefit from fixes. Unless a disorder brings a peculiar advantage along with it, I’d expect them to benefit from fixes, so long as the fix is easy enough. Maybe a peculiar advantage would be a photographic memory or some other unusual feature of a syndrome.

Well, then, don’t fix me because I am not broken. I just have SSA.

 

[Holly3278]

I honestly believe that homsexuals suffer from some sort of mental disorder that mainstream psychology doesn’t acknowledge. After all, homosexuality is objectively disordered. Also, homosexual acts are grave sins. Therefore, I am against homosexuality. However, we should treat homosexuals with kindness just as we would anyone with any other mental disorder. That does not mean giving homosexuals special rights.

 

[Valke2]

HOw is it objectively disordered? What criteria are you using? Can love be objectively disordered?

 

[goofyjim]

The real problem and it is statitically driven, and factual as far as statistics allow is that those who are inclined towards homosexuality are extremely likely to sexually abuse those under the age of consent, the rate of sexual abuse upon young men by men is almost as high as sexual abuse of young girls by men, the real problem being that homosexuals supposedly account for between 1-3% of the population and heterosexuals the reamining amount.

So if we use 3% as the number then do the statistical maths about the percentage of abusers amongst the homosexual.

Now of course most sexual offenders are serial offenders, so clearly not every homosexual will be an abuser, but the odds are so high, that never will I knowingly allow homosexuals to have dealings with my children, on a social or work atmosphere.

That is the real proble here and when we talk sin it is no different from those who commit other sins, for eg if you know someone has a high chance of lying, then naturally enough yu guard against being caught out by such a person.

The real sad fact is that we are all sinners and so we should be as friendly as we can be to those who are sinners, however we must always use prudence.

If any one does not believe the risk that homosexuals are, then one can simply do an honest investigation to themselves and see what is the chances.

I use to investigate those who were sexually abused as youngsters and there is an extremely high prevelence for those who are homosexual to have been sexually abused by homosexuals.

Not only that there have been various studies done for eg about the living of boys in a household where there is no father and the stats certainly indicate that for some reason those in such households have a greater tendancy towards being homosexual.

For thos ewho car to study humanity you will find that despite the way we are born or “inclined” to be, it is the environment of life experience which actually pushes people down various paths.

Let me give you an example, when a young male boy, prepubescent, is sexually abused in some sort of supposed loving relationship and before he is aware of the “morality of sex” or otherwise, he will simply experience sexual enjoyment, becasue something is occuring that of itself is pleasurable (ejacualtion) and knows not that it is wrong.

So he is in a relationship that is conditioning him. Until one day he learns that it is not normal and then you can imagine what goes on inside the poor boys head when he finds out that something he has historically found pleasureable is wrong.

That my friends is why just about all those who are homosexual are those that have been abused.

And this still sounds like the same old stupid suspicion that I as an individual with SSA am extremely likely to molest children. Hogwash. I am 100% safe around children.

 

[goofyjim]

I honestly believe that homsexuals suffer from some sort of mental disorder that mainstream psychology doesn’t acknowledge. After all, homosexuality is objectively disordered. Also, homosexual acts are grave sins. Therefore, I am against homosexuality. However, we should treat homosexuals with kindness just as we would anyone with any other mental disorder. That does not mean giving homosexuals special rights.

If you insist on classifying it as a mental disorder then there is the Americans with Disabilities Act which does give us some special protection and accomodations.

 

[urban-hermit]

I have a number of problems with the way the Church handles this topic, …

Any homosexual person that stays in the Church is carrying a huge cross and is greatly to be admired. We need to reach out to gay people, admit they have been treated badly, and bring them back into the fold. If they stumble and sin, they should be treated no differently than single heterosexuals. This would not require changing anything but attitudes. I think if the Church kept its current teachings, but the Church (both officials and lay people) simply treated homosexuals with the respect and dignity that the Church already teaches they are due, it would be a HUGE step forward.

So, basically, you are of the opinion that homosexuality should be treated the same way as contraception is, i.e. largely unchallenged.

And that this would be a HUGE step forward.

TMC, are you a Catholic? You speak in this post as if you are.

The most chaste gay person is still the object of derision and ridicule – this thread proves that if nothing else.

This thread proves nothing of the sort and I cannot see how you can not know that.

We are all entitled to our own opinions. But not our own facts. I am a lifelong Catholic and have been a homosexual all my adult life. I have never been ridiculed by anybody in the Church, clergy or layperson. Many of the assertions you make in your post seem to me exaggerations and distortions. I find this offensive as I feel you are using an opportunity to vent your opinion as an opportunity to slander Catholics.

 

[rlg94086]

HOw is it objectively disordered? What criteria are you using? Can love be objectively disordered?

Hi Valke2,

“Objectively disordered” means the “object” of desire is not properly “ordered” - IOW…a man’s unitive desire for marital love should be directed towards a woman and vice versa. So, “objectively” is used as an adjective to describe how it is disordered…not the severity or certainty.

I hope that helps.

 

[urban-hermit]

HOw is it objectively disordered? What criteria are you using? Can love be objectively disordered?

Can a homosexual sex act be an expression of love?

What criteria are you using?

 

[TMC]

So, basically, you are of the opinion that homosexuality should be treated the same way as contraception is, i.e. largely unchallenged.

And that this would be a HUGE step forward.

The huge step would be to treat homosexuals with the dignity and respect they deserve. They, too, were created in the image of Christ. They are no less loved by Him, and no less deserving of our respect than anyone else.

TMC, are you a Catholic? You speak in this post as if you are.

Yes.

This thread proves nothing of the sort and I cannot see how you can not know that.

We are all entitled to our own opinions. But not our own facts. I am a lifelong Catholic and have been a homosexual all my adult life. I have never been ridiculed by anybody in the Church, clergy or layperson. Many of the assertions you make in your post seem to me exaggerations and distortions. I find this offensive as I feel you are using an opportunity to vent your opinion as an opportunity to slander Catholics.

I don’t know if you are serious or not, but I will assume that you are. I think that saying that homosexuals are mentally ill is derision. I think that saying that gay people are child molestors is wrong and hurtful. I think that the posters that suggested that gay people just lack will power or equated homosexuals to gluttons and are ridiculing and deriding. Do you think it is OK to say these things about people? They are all in this thread. I have seen worse in others.

I am not homosexual, but I have friends and family that are. I have known them to be personally insulted and ridiculed without any relation to their actions, but only to their orientation. Do you not know anyone who has had this experience? Do you not agree that homosexuality is treated differently than the other sex-related sins? I live in what is considered a pretty ‘liberal’ area, and I have heard these things many times. Mostly from lay people, yes, but from clergy as well.

 

[Pug]

Well, then, don’t fix me because I am not broken. I just have SSA.

I have not said at all on this thread that I need to fix you or that you need to undergo some treatment to be fixed. I am not someone who advocates that SSA people must be fixed with a treatment. They may try a treatment if they like, of course. I have met SSA people who indicate that they would like to not be SSA.

I had wished to express that people are not obligated to have treatments for things (which includes SSA).

Perhaps you are indicating that you personally prefer to be SSA?