Your religion, your crutch...Part 2

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So bottom line…can you objectively illustrate how you’re belief system enables you to lead a more fulfilling, just, moral life than an individual such as myself? AND once you realize that you indeed cannot do this…then hopefully you will start to realize how religion in fact divides us…holds us back from true universal compatibility and companionship with our fellow human beings.

I’m a pretty simple person. Not well educated but I have at least half a brain (I think).

I don’t claim to lead a more fulifilling, just or moral life than you but I would ask this…Why do you have any morals? Why would you not kill a man to get what he has in order to benefit yourself? What stops you from doing this?

I am interested to understand why you are moral.
 
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Strength:
Look…I am actually not testy…I just find it bewildering to say the least - that you guys feel I am attacking you or that I have an agenda. PLease see “seeks gods” posts…those are almost outright lies…Agenda?? Look I STARTED THIS THREAD…When does it ever work when the protagonist submits the ideas, and questions…and then others respond with more questions?
In just about every thread in this forum! It is completely legitimate to include questions in one’s response and doing so is a part of normal civil discourse.
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Strength:
I asked in an earlier post “why can’t we have moral absolutes without religion”…the responses I got were anything from “On what ground would these absolutes be formed in a way that is absolute and not subject to the changing views of the majority or powerful? This question has been asked of you several times and you ignore it again.”…“who would we be accountable to”?..

Let’s take the easy one…Murder…can you show me evidence in a society, group of people, where murder was deemed ok?
Two points. First, you have answered a question with another question. See how it works? Second, you still haven’t answered the question.
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Strength:
Pre christian, post christian whatever. I’m talking about global exceptance hear…Hitler murdered people, Stalin murdered people etc…etc… of course…Did the world think that was ok???
Again you fail to catch the point of the examples you cite. The moral justification concocted by Hitler and Stalin arose from societies in the world that had abandoned and rejected the influence of religion. The decision that such actions were justified and moral were made solely on intellectual arguments while deliberately ignoring the teachings of religion. The societies who did not think that their actions were okay still took religious teachings into consideration. Once again, you have helped to demonstrate our position.

Conclusion: The removal of the influence of religion on society removes the absolute morals that religion provides and replaces them with subjective ones.

Additionally, your completely new requirement that such moral ideals must be globally accepted to be considered as evidence contradicts your own question. First you say,
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Strength:
can you show me evidence in a society, group of people, where murder was deemed ok?
and then you say,
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Strength:
I’m talking about global exceptance hear.
[sic]

So, now you are saying that, using solely reason and intelligence and not taking religion into account, the societies OF THE ENTIRE WORLD are going to agree on a standard set of morality? This is pure fantasy.

Strength said:
'm still not clear on how you guys seem to think that without god everything goes out the window…It points to a severe lack of strength in your own neural power…Is it that you don’t believe in yourselves so you believe in a god figure?

It is because we have seen and studied the evidence of what societies and other groups of people will “justify” when they abandon the guidance of religion and come up with their own morality based on reason and intellect; an extremely subjective morality. Your apparent inability to recognize the simple facts of history and psychology might be thought to suggest something about your own neural power. :rolleyes: We believe in God because creation clearly reveals His existence.
 
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Strength:
What?..are you telling me that the only reason you know the difference between right and wrong is…because of Christianity?
Loose canon or not, you have not only not answered the question, you have done so by asking one yourself. At least those of us who directed questions back to you had the courtesy to answer your question first.

Nobody can know the difference between right and wrong without being taught. So, whence comes the origin of right and wrong without religion? Even Natural Law is a religious concept.
 
This article contains a lot of information that I am in agreement with…Although I don’t relate to what a lot of what Freud postulates…but this is effective reading to help support my point…in that I do not have time to write it all out in my own words and thinking.

this is mostly for JimO

spectacle.org/1095/moral.html
 
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Strength:
I asked in an earlier post “why can’t we have moral absolutes without religion”
Just to be perfectly clear, I’ll restate the answer without any accompanying question.

We cannot have moral absolutes without religion because, without religion, people will be left to their own reasoning powers to try and develop a moral standard. Groups of people, subject to their own whims and prideful of their own perceived intelligence, will come to different conclusions of what is and is not moral behavior. As opinions change so will the judgment of what is and is not moral. Therefore, such judgments fail to meet the “absolute” standard which is a direct topic of your question. History reveals this to be the case in those societies noted for abandoning religion. Morality in such societies is never the collective reasoning of the entire population but, instead, the back-room decisions of people who are either in power or who deem themselves to be of superior intelligence than the masses (or both).
 
I think I am missing something. Again, forgive my simple post. Reading through this thread has been quite a chore.

If I understand correctly you want me to understand you can be equally moral and just as a person of religion?

I say sure, you can.

Why do I now have to believe religion is bad and divides mankind?
 
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PaulDupre:
I am proud to have Jesus as my crutch. I admit that I need Him to live a truly fulfilling life, and so does everyone, whether they know it or not.

I admit that He is strong where I am weak.
I admit that He is wise where I am foolish.
I admit that He is all-seeing where I stumble in the darkness.
I admit that I need Him as a crutch.

God bless us all,
Paul
👍 Great post!:blessyou: One of my dearest friends, an RN, is fond of saying that people who think that calling faith a “crutch” have clearly never had any broken bones…
Me, I’ve had more than my share. I freely admit to being spiritually broken. Thankfully, my Lord is as willing to help me limp along, as He was to carry His cross…
 
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PaulDupre:
I am proud to have Jesus as my crutch. I admit that I need Him to live a truly fulfilling life, and so does everyone, whether they know it or not.

I admit that He is strong where I am weak.
I admit that He is wise where I am foolish.
I admit that He is all-seeing where I stumble in the darkness.
I admit that I need Him as a crutch.

God bless us all,
Paul
👍 Great post!:blessyou: One of my dearest friends, an RN, is fond of saying that people who think that calling faith a “crutch” is an insult have clearly never had any broken bones…
Me, I’ve had more than my share of physical breaks. I also freely admit to being spiritually broken. Thankfully, my Lord is as willing to help me limp along, as He was to carry His cross…
 
Just for clarification, I only think that describing religion as a crutch in the sence in which Strength has described it is insulting. According to the description, religion is to comfort those too ignorant and fearful to rely on the human intellect. As a result, they invent the idea of God and religion.

In as far as the teaching of the faith goes, I agree with St. Augustine who is supposed to have said, “Work as if everything depends on you but pray because everything depends on God.”
 
More answers for Strength:

You seem to be laboring under a misunderstanding of the basis of faith. I say this based on your questions about why we believe in God and adhere to our religion. Not once have you just asked why we believe; instead you always frame the question with a presumed explanation for that belief. Also, in post number 4 you listed three reasons you apparently believe account for it.

Therefore, I will answer the unasked question with references to the asked one. As I stated a couple of posts ago, we believe in God because His existence is revealed in the world. Every aspect of the known world, when examined, leads one to the conclusion that God exists. We do not believe because of the unknown, but because of the known. The more that is known, the more God is revealed. Modern science has done much to confirm the necessity of God’s existence for the world’s existence.

We do not believe because of fear. This may be the case with other religions but not ours because we believe that God is merciful, loving, and just. Not just sometimes, but always and infinitely. There is nothing you could do, no matter how horrid, that would cause Him to stop loving you. That is the essence of the Gospel.

Now, when it comes to our particular religion, that relies on revelation. Nature reveals the existence of God but nothing much more about God. This is evident in the pagan religions that date back beyond recorded history. As I stated before, the mere fact that they all came to believe in some kind of God is also evidence of God’s existence. It is simply not logical to say that different peoples in different cultures in different parts of the world with no interaction with one another all independently came up with the same false idea to explain the unknown. Yes, the pagans, using intellect and reason, discovered that God must exist but had no way of knowing anything about God Himself. Thus they developed ideas about God that resulted in their believing in multiple gods. But their gods were only understodd as one can understand nature. Their gods were not forgiving because nature is not forgiving.

Some Greek and Roman philosophers looked at both nature and humanity and reasoned that there must only be one god (they were, admittedly the minority in their societies).

The Israelites received what no other society had - revelation. God chose to reveal Himself to Israel and, through them, to the rest of the world. It was then that a new idea about God entered into human consciousness; that God is merciful. Such an idea could not logically be derived from nature (as is evidenced by the pagans). Israel went from being slaves to the most powerful kingdom on Earth in a way that defies reason. This was to give evidence that their God is the one true God.

Then God further revealed Himself further to the Jews by becoming man. He did this and introduced another new concept of which even the Jews could not conceive; He is humble.

Throughout history, many miracles have occurred to reinforce our weak faith. Many skeptics have tried to disprove the miraculous nature of these events but have failed. Now, it is true that there have been false claims of miracles. those were disproved and justly so. However, there have been many more cases where the only explanation is the miraculous. You are free to ignore these, but we are free not to.

This is why we believe in God and why we will maintain our adherence to His religion.
 
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Strength:
This article contains a lot of information that I am in agreement with…
I read the article and I could write an lengthy response. None of us have the time for that, so I will try to be brief.

Psychology - I wouldn’t want to base any argument on the findings of Freud. I studied Freud and found him to be very speculative. I’ll go on to something with more substance.

Biology - The problem I have with the genetic basis for behavior is that it takes as much faith to believe this as it does to believe in God. It presumes that there is this “force” that “drives” genetic development in a specific direction and that our genetic code “wants” to survive. When people speak of evolution (I don’t discount certain elements of evolution, I’m not a strict creationist), they refer to the evolutionary process in terms of intelligence, cognition, and purpose. You hear statements like, “Evolution moved in the direction of…” or “The species evolved to live in colder climates”, as though there is an intelligence or purpose driving evolution that rises above the individual. These types of statements are required to describe the evolutionary process because in order to rationalize evolution without a Creator, one has to presume some kind of order to the process, and not just order, but purpose. I’m a geologist, so I know a bit about this subject.

Regarding the genetic evolution of morality, the examples given in the article sound straightforward enough, except the one postulating that the homosexual “gene” evolved in spite of the lack of reproduction because homosexuals may have preferentially taken risks to save family members. That flies in the face of scientific reason. If you believe that homosexuality is genetic, then homosexuality would have died out long ago. However, the examples given are extremely simplistic when one considers that along with genetic evolution of those simple behaviors, we are daily bombarded with millions of other stresses that have evolutionary implications. Thus, saying that because green-bearded men who take more risks to save their own kind means that green-bearded people will proliferate is overly simplistic and doesn’t take into account the ability of green-bearded men to resist disease, out run predators, find food, survive cold, etc. The sum of these characteristics is what allows one individual to survive preferentially over another and pass on his entire genetic code. You can’t single out individual genetic traits, or even groups of traits and claim that they produce an advantage, because there are not focused environmental stresses that determine survivability. This doesn’t even consider random chance (a rock falling on the genetically superior green bearded guy).

As far as the memes idea goes. I can’t believe the author actually wants us to take this seriously. He has absolutely made this up with no data and no evidence.

I returned to my original postulation. Yes, you can have a moral code in a non-theistic world but it is not absolute. Why? Look around. We think the human race has come so far and that we have evolved societies that are superior to past societies. I disagree. Technology and knowledge have advanced light years, but basic human behavior has not. If statistics were available, you’d likely have just as many people, as a percentage, who rape, kill, steal, lie and cheat as you ever had. We might be better at catching them and, thus, reducing the incidences of such behavior, but the percentages of people with these tendancies doesn’t seem to be decreasing. Our collective concept of what is right and wrong has ocellated back and forth depending on who is in power and what the majority believes. Therefore, any morality with a human origin cannot be considered absolute.

Also, although the article was well written and the author articulate, he violates the same principle that theists are accused of violating. We are accused of assuming God’s existence as a basis for our arguments. The author assumes that God doesn’t exist as a basis for his. In the process, he violates logic by making leaps of faith that are every bit as broad as those of the theist.

I still content that there are many intellectual atheists (anti-theists) who think themselves superior and thus better equipped to make moral decisions for society. These people don’t even want people like me at the social table making these decisions. Forgive me for lumping you in with this group. That was unfair.

We have to remember that people are never in unanimous agreement on morality, thus, some group is always deciding what will be moral for the entire society. Therein lies the conflict.
 
In regards to evolution. I to agree with some evolutionary aspects; what is sometimes called micro evolution. However, the idea of evolution is, as JimO points out, that certain genetic traits will be passed on based on the superior ability to survive and in order to survive. This not only presumes an order established outside of the evolutionary process itself but it does raise some interesting questions about those traits.

Consider the eye. According to evolution, there was a point at which no organisms had eyes. They survived and reporduced and, so there was no “need” based in survival to evolve into a type of organism that had eyes. The eye is an enormously complex organ that would have taken a long time, according to evolutionists, to develop to the point where it could actually see. However, during that development time - when the eye was present but it could not yet see, the very presence of the eye would have been a greater weakness for those organisms that had it. A new hole in the head right next to the brain filled with soft tissue and no way of detecting danger??? What evolutionary advantage does such an organ have without also having the ability to see? None. It would have been extremely disadvantageous to have such an organ until it could actually see.
 
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Strength:
Look…I am actually not testy…I just find it bewildering to say the least - that you guys feel I am attacking you or that I have an agenda. PLease see “seeks gods” posts…those are almost outright lies…Agenda?? Look I STARTED THIS THREAD…When does it ever work when the protagonist submits the ideas, and questions…and then others respond with more questions?..Such as “Show me a society that didn’t have religion”…how does that work? Blah blah blah… Were there airplanes before someone invented an airplane? Right…? Just because humans have never overcome their psycological limitations when it comes to understanding god theory…doesn’t mean that it can’t be done? You accuse me of not answering your questions…I’ll take the most simple one (in my eyes)

I asked in an earlier post “why can’t we have moral absolutes without religion”…the responses I got were anything from “On what ground would these absolutes be formed in a way that is absolute and not subject to the changing views of the majority or powerful? This question has been asked of you several times and you ignore it again.”…“who would we be accountable to”?..

Let’s take the easy one…Murder…can you show me evidence in a society, group of people, where murder was deemed ok? Pre christian, post christian whatever. I’m talking about global exceptance hear…Hitler murdered people, Stalin murdered people etc…etc… of course…Did the world think that was ok???
I’m still not clear on how you guys seem to think that without god everything goes out the window…It points to a severe lack of strength in your own neural power…Is it that you don’t believe in yourselves so you believe in a god figure?
If I may add something here:

You may have morals in a society, but not moral absolutes. Someone has already explained that absolutes are definitive - they don’t change. However, humans change and determine what is absolute and what is not depending upon culture, environment, etc.

You presuppose people’s intellect here is faulty and yours is not. You presuppose any people globally with any religious faith do not use reason and intelligence. Have you read any works by people such as St. Augustine or C.S. Lewis, or perhaps even in the Buddhist realm - something from The Dalai Lama? These are/were extremely intelligent people who use intelligence and faith in their respective religions to live their life.

I have realized that there have been many who have gone before me that have: a) more education, b) more common sense and/or c) more intelligence than I have. They have grappled with some of the same issues and problems I have already faced. It’s called the “human condition”. You may feel that you have stumbled upon some new revelation or that you have the answers to life. First, realize this is probably completely false.

Be well…peace…
 
JimO, mutant, et al.

I didn’t mean to imply that the article represented all of my notions completely…most of us have dimissed Freud long ago - (even though some of his work is valid)…the theme I was trying to convey is when does a sense of morality actually develop in a human being?..Do we actually believe that a small child (2-3 yrs. old) has any concept of what a god belief means? BUT the child displays evidence of morality…i.e fair play/cheating, adherence to rules etc… this can only be evidence that a sense of right and wrong develops though intellect and social experience…BEFORE any understanding of religion (s) can be even remotely grasped. I’m in my thirties and am completely befuddled as to how people come to god…but am convinced that I know right and wrong based on a logical examination of mans interaction with fellow man. Mutant explains to me that society would fall and crumble without religions…but religious societies have crumbled throughout history (relevance comes into play deeply here)…this concept folds over onto itself because one exception destroys the unversiality of any rule obviously.

We have never have a modern society without a god belief…so comparison cannot be made in that sense…

Peoples throught history coming to the same conclusion regarding supernatural existence is just not worth getting into…I don’t believe that it is valid evidence of god.
 
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Strength:
We have never have a modern society without a god belief…so comparison cannot be made in that sense…

Peoples throught history coming to the same conclusion regarding supernatural existence is just not worth getting into…I don’t believe that it is valid evidence of god.
Modern? Is Russia modern? Is North Korea modern? Okay, how about ummm… China?
 
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Strength:
Do we actually believe that a small child (2-3 yrs. old) has any concept of what a god belief means? BUT the child displays evidence of morality…i.e fair play/cheating, adherence to rules etc… this can only be evidence that a sense of right and wrong develops though intellect and social experience…BEFORE any understanding of religion (s) can be even remotely grasped.
Two things here. I have four children and I agree that they have an innate sense of fair play; however, it is not based on the premise that “I need to be fair to to others.” It is based on the premise that “I have been wronged.” In other words, it is a selfish instinct. There are, of course, exceptions, but children are, by nature, selfish and have to be trained to have compassion for others.

On the other hand, the Christian believes that God is responsible for any innate sense of justice or fair play, particularly that which is selfless. C.S. Lewis argued that the very existence of an innate sense of what is right and wrong is one line of evidence for a personal God.

Not to get off topic, but may I pose a question? If you were given physical “proof” that God exists, would you respond and believe? Sadly, many atheists I know would not, as I indicated in an earlier post. Therefore, for many, it is not simply an absence of belief, but and unwillingness to submit. God’s existence is denied, but His existence doesn’t really matter. It is a rejection of God, not an absence of belief.
 
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Strength:
JimO, mutant, et al.

I didn’t mean to imply that the article represented all of my notions completely…most of us have dimissed Freud long ago - (even though some of his work is valid)…the theme I was trying to convey is when does a sense of morality actually develop in a human being?..Do we actually believe that a small child (2-3 yrs. old) has any concept of what a god belief means? BUT the child displays evidence of morality…i.e fair play/cheating, adherence to rules etc… this can only be evidence that a sense of right and wrong develops though intellect and social experience…BEFORE any understanding of religion (s) can be even remotely grasped. I’m in my thirties and am completely befuddled as to how people come to god…but am convinced that I know right and wrong based on a logical examination of mans interaction with fellow man. Mutant explains to me that society would fall and crumble without religions…but religious societies have crumbled throughout history (relevance comes into play deeply here)…this concept folds over onto itself because one exception destroys the unversiality of any rule obviously.

We have never have a modern society without a god belief…so comparison cannot be made in that sense…

Peoples throught history coming to the same conclusion regarding supernatural existence is just not worth getting into…I don’t believe that it is valid evidence of god.
A 2 year old does not exist in a vacuum. Thake a look a some of the kids that were kept locked up in rooms for years.
 
I’m not sure if how we come to morality dimishes the fact that we indeed do come to it…and it doesn’t necessarily have to be through a religion…right? ( I am evidence of this I contend) Didn’t jesus mention giving up our worldly possessions?..but yet - we still have selfishness… Even if religion does provide a moral absolute…is society as a whole even aware of it? Do we operate in this context? This is probably something worth discussing.

Regarding if there were proof of god…would I believe? Brother…if I could even understand a religion(s)…I may come to it…but this is a big limiter for me I guess. How would I choose? Why would I choose? The three major religions all say the same thing about eachother…and then themselves. Islam is the one true religion…Christianity is the one true religion etc…etc… How could I compel myself knowing full well that there is not a way to critically, and empirically come to a satisfactory conclusion (at least for my own intellect)…this is important stuff…Maybe when I was a teen I spent to many lazy afternoons reading Kant, and Nietzche…James…religious books of all shapes and sizes…Heck I own a copy of the Bhagadvad Ghita!..I recently came into possession of a huge piece of work that compares and contrasts major religions…postulates ancient religions that our modern ones may have evolved from…Zoroastrianism is quite amazing…Do you know there are ancient persian religious traditions that correspond very closely to accounts in the bible?..neat stuff…

I still postulate that a group of individuals could get together…and develop an absolute moral code…I believe this strongly in human intellect. I guess if I didn’t…maybe I would turn to god…maybe that is the answer?
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JimO:
Two things here. I have four children and I agree that they have an innate sense of fair play; however, it is not based on the premise that “I need to be fair to to others.” It is based on the premise that “I have been wronged.” In other words, it is a selfish instinct. There are, of course, exceptions, but children are, by nature, selfish and have to be trained to have compassion for others.

On the other hand, the Christian believes that God is responsible for any innate sense of justice or fair play, particularly that which is selfless. C.S. Lewis argued that the very existence of an innate sense of what is right and wrong is one line of evidence for a personal God.

Not to get off topic, but may I pose a question? If you were given physical “proof” that God exists, would you respond and believe? Sadly, many atheists I know would not, as I indicated in an earlier post. Therefore, for many, it is not simply an absence of belief, but and unwillingness to submit. God’s existence is denied, but His existence doesn’t really matter. It is a rejection of God, not an absence of belief.
 
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Strength:
JDo we actually believe that a small child (2-3 yrs. old) has any concept of what a god belief means? BUT the child displays evidence of morality…i.e fair play/cheating, adherence to rules etc… this can only be evidence that a sense of right and wrong develops though intellect and social experience…BEFORE any understanding of religion (s) can be even remotely grasped.
One of my daughter’s is currently three and I past experience babysitting and working in day care. You are absolutely wrong. The average 2-3 year old has no concept of fair play and their entire relation to the outside world comes form a completely self-centered perspective - what THEY want - not from some notion of fairness. As they grow old, they LEARN the concept of fairness from others. There is no self-realization of the concept and absolutely no evidence that there ever would be.
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Strength:
Mutant explains to me that society would fall and crumble without religions
I have never said this. I have said that such a society would not have an absolute sense of what is and is not moral and I have noted, as evidence of this fact, the recent societies which completely rejected religious guidance and formed their morality based solely on intellect and reason.
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Strength:
We have never have a modern society without a god belief…so comparison cannot be made in that sense
Just because members of a society believe in God doesn’t make the society itself a religiously based society. Communist and other socialist societies were established specifically as unreligious societies and their morals and laws were a product of that fact. So the comparrison is valid.
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Strength:
Peoples throught history coming to the same conclusion regarding supernatural existence is just not worth getting into…I don’t believe that it is valid evidence of god.
Your refusal to “get into” this fact is not the same as refuting the point made regarding it. You don’t believe that it is valid evidence, I do. I guess we’re just at a stand-off on the matter.
 
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