Your religion, your crutch?

[Tantum_ergo]

Strength, tell me please how you are able to judge whether you are a “good” person. Is it because “society” tells you that you are? How does society know? How do we “know” that some things, like stealing and killing, are wrong?

And what about the people who disagree? If my society, or my own judgment, says that it’s all right to kill or steal, then why is one society’s judgment preferred over another ones?

Where did we get the ideas of “good” and “evil”?
If we are products of random actions, if we have just “evolved” from compounds which, by a random accident, became “life” and then continued to evolve, where in the process did one group of those evolutionary species develop “good” and “evil” and why, in all that we know of recorded history, no matter what the society was, were the ideas so SIMILAR?

 

[Strength]

Well, judging by this thread I obviously think it’s absurd that people can somehow quantify the relevance and existence of a god through any means except that which exists in their own minds…

I’m not integrated among society because I’m scared to go to hell.
I came to the conclusion that lying and cheating and stealing etc…etc… were simply illogical…You can break down laws and moral ideas through simple logic…cause and effect. I don’t need to fear that I will go to some mythical place called “hell”…to do the right thing…I also don’t think that people who think differently than me are going to hell…I mean how horrible is that? That’s something that most Christians are never really strong enough to meet head on - which is why I always ask - what God are you talking about?..as a Christian you must realize that more than half the world is going to hell right? Whole continents and countries of muslims, jews, hindis, etc… are going to hell…you realize this right?..Anyone who doesn’t prescribe to the Christian notion of god is a pagan and a heretic…off to hell. So in that sense even morality itself isn’t relevant - because if you aren’t on the right god train…you’re going to the fire…How could that make sense to anyone? I’m just not able to understand religious thinking.

deb1:

Could you explain this in more detail? What exactly do you mean the social contract with other humans?

 

[VociMike]

Strength,

You say that you’re a good person, as though that matters. What do you mean when you say you’re a good person, and why should we (or you) care?

 

[Strength]

Well…I will be strong enough to admit that the words, good and evil are just words, and maybe not a definition of an experience…Sometimes words don’t do a great job. I guess my idea of good would be to be able to live your live with liberty, and justice without infringing on anyone else’s right TO DO THE SAME THING…As soon as you cross over into someone else’s realm of existence and effect it negatively - then you are probably doing the wrong thing.

I’m not sure that all of the ideas we know throughout “recorded” history are similiar…???
Tantum ergo:

Strength, tell me please how you are able to judge whether you are a “good” person. Is it because “society” tells you that you are? How does society know? How do we “know” that some things, like stealing and killing, are wrong?

And what about the people who disagree? If my society, or my own judgment, says that it’s all right to kill or steal, then why is one society’s judgment preferred over another ones?

Where did we get the ideas of “good” and “evil”?
If we are products of random actions, if we have just “evolved” from compounds which, by a random accident, became “life” and then continued to evolve, where in the process did one group of those evolutionary species develop “good” and “evil” and why, in all that we know of recorded history, no matter what the society was, were the ideas so SIMILAR?

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

You’re assuming that I subscribe to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. I don’t happen to agree with it…I believe that some things can indeed be quantified…supernatural gods do not happen to be one of them…That’s only partly what I’m talking about though.

I certainly don’t want to sound like I’m insulting, that’s not my intent, but I don’t think you grasp the concept of quantification - in order to quantify you have to measure and any measurement you have to understand there is no exact. How you measure is different then how I measure - it is part of the human flaw, we are not the same or consistant. God is consistant and actual, just because science cannot explain it does not negate God - because humans are trying to measure God. We can’t do that the same way with every person.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

Well, judging by this thread I obviously think it’s absurd that people can somehow quantify the relevance and existence of a god through any means except that which exists in their own minds…

I’m not integrated among society because I’m scared to go to hell.
I came to the conclusion that lying and cheating and stealing etc…etc… were simply illogical…You can break down laws and moral ideas through simple logic…cause and effect. I don’t need to fear that I will go to some mythical place called “hell”…to do the right thing…I also don’t think that people who think differently than me are going to hell…I mean how horrible is that? That’s something that most Christians are never really strong enough to meet head on - which is why I always ask - what God are you talking about?..as a Christian you must realize that more than half the world is going to hell right? Whole continents and countries of muslims, jews, hindis, etc… are going to hell…you realize this right?..Anyone who doesn’t prescribe to the Christian notion of god is a pagan and a heretic…off to hell. So in that sense even morality itself isn’t relevant - because if you aren’t on the right god train…you’re going to the fire…How could that make sense to anyone? I’m just not able to understand religious thinking.

Then according to your rational, there is no purpose to life. There is no reason for people like Hitler, Stalin or other malicious individulas to be held accountable for their actions. Cause and effect…Stalin propbably thought he was doing good since nothing ever ‘effected’ him negatively…

 

[mercygate]

Quantify? How do you quantify love or beauty?

Your question is like asking if God can make a rock heavier than his omnipotence can lift. It’s a verbal conundrum – a faulty question that may elicit some sort of answer, but it will not satisfy the intended question.

 

[Della]

Strength:

Well, judging by this thread I obviously think it’s absurd that people can somehow quantify the relevance and existence of a god through any means except that which exists in their own minds…

I’m not integrated among society because I’m scared to go to hell.
I came to the conclusion that lying and cheating and stealing etc…etc… were simply illogical…You can break down laws and moral ideas through simple logic…cause and effect. I don’t need to fear that I will go to some mythical place called “hell”…to do the right thing…I also don’t think that people who think differently than me are going to hell…I mean how horrible is that?

What you are talking about here is called “natural law”. People of faith believe that God instilled these instincts for doing what’s right into the human person because he made us in his image. Others think it is a survival instinct. It’s probably both/and rather than one or the other. After all, if God created us with a survival instinct that must be a part of his plan for us and perhaps for all creation.

That’s something that most Christians are never really strong enough to meet head on - which is why I always ask - what God are you talking about?..as a Christian you must realize that more than half the world is going to hell right? Whole continents and countries of muslims, jews, hindis, etc… are going to hell…you realize this right?..Anyone who doesn’t prescribe to the Christian notion of god is a pagan and a heretic…off to hell. So in that sense even morality itself isn’t relevant - because if you aren’t on the right god train…you’re going to the fire…How could that make sense to anyone? I’m just not able to understand religious thinking.

You’ll forgive me, but you are simply wrong about this. I don’t know about the whole of Protestantism, which speaks with literally thousands of voices, but the Catholic Church does not and never has consigned anyone to hell, not even Judas.

We do not believe that God is so unmerciful or unjust as to hold people accountable for what they could not have known or could not accept due to insurmountable barriers of time, distance, or culture.

God extends his mercy to whom he pleases. What he expects of those who do know about his saving grace is that we live it out in our lives. It is we who know who have no excuse before God not those who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus or the Gospel. I hope that helps you.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

As soon as you cross over into someone else’s realm of existence and effect it negatively - then you are probably doing the wrong thing.

QUOTE]

What is to judge your statement? What dictates a negative effect? How do you base it? without absolute “good and evil”, you lose “positive and negative” to relativity

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Good point.
Affect it negatively? Affect it positively? By whose judgment is there a positive or negative effect? The minute you have “positive” or “negative” effects, you have yourself made a judgment. On what do you base that judgment other than an absolute standard?

 

[VociMike]

Strength:

I guess my idea of good would be to be able to live your live with liberty, and justice without infringing on anyone else’s right TO DO THE SAME THING…As soon as you cross over into someone else’s realm of existence and effect it negatively - then you are probably doing the wrong thing.

X marries a woman that Z wanted to marry. It affects Z very negatively.

X bought a house that Z wanted badly. It affected Z very negatively.

X had better test scores and got accepted at a university, keeping Z out. It affected Z very negatively.

X lifted a greater weight than Z, thus winning the Olympic gold medal and depriving Z of it. It affected Z very negatively.

How is it OK to use one’s money, one’s intelligence, one’s personality, one’s strength in a way that affects others negatively in these cases?

When would it not be OK to use one’s money, one’s intelligence, one’s personality, one’s strength to affect others negatively? What’s the difference?

The fact is, we affect each other negatively every day.

 

[Strength]

Seeks God:

I certainly don’t want to sound like I’m insulting, that’s not my intent, but I don’t think you grasp the concept of quantification - in order to quantify you have to measure and any measurement you have to understand there is no exact. How you measure is different then how I measure - it is part of the human flaw, we are not the same or consistant. God is consistant and actual, just because science cannot explain it does not negate God - because humans are trying to measure God. We can’t do that the same way with every person.

Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word “quantify” then…it’s probably not even a word… kind of like “pro-active”…I think you are indeed helping me prove the “irrelevance” point I am trying to make though.

 

[Strength]

Seeks God:

Then according to your rational, there is no purpose to life. There is no reason for people like Hitler, Stalin or other malicious individulas to be held accountable for their actions. Cause and effect…Stalin propbably thought he was doing good since nothing ever ‘effected’ him negatively…

I’m not sure how you got any of that from what I wrote.

 

[Strength]

Forgive me…but you are wrong…if you’re making the assumption that all of the millions upon millions of muslims etc…don’t know about the christian god…They know, and they simply don’t believe…so they will go to hell. (that’s the rumor)

Della:

What you are talking about here is called “natural law”. People of faith believe that God instilled these instincts for doing what’s right into the human person because he made us in his image. Others think it is a survival instinct. It’s probably both/and rather than one or the other. After all, if God created us with a survival instinct that must be a part of his plan for us and perhaps for all creation.

You’ll forgive me, but you are simply wrong about this. I don’t know about the whole of Protestantism, which speaks with literally thousands of voices, but the Catholic Church does not and never has consigned anyone to hell, not even Judas.

We do not believe that God is so unmerciful or unjust as to hold people accountable for what they could not have known or could not accept due to insurmountable barriers of time, distance, or culture.

God extends his mercy to whom he pleases. What he expects of those who do know about his saving grace is that we live it out in our lives. It is we who know who have no excuse before God not those who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus or the Gospel. I hope that helps you.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

I’m not sure how you got any of that from what I wrote.

You whole arguement is based upon Moral Relativism - not a new concept. The intention of all your posts surround the idea that you can be basically as good as a someone who has faith in God and there really is no reason to believe in heaven or hell…isn’t that what you are truly saying? That seems to be your argument.

With that as your argument, then there is no reason to think people like Hitler, Stalin or others should be seen in a bad light. Your argument removes an absolute morality…cause and effect: without absolute morality, there is no good and evil.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word “quantify” then…it’s probably not even a word… kind of like “pro-active”…I think you are indeed helping me prove the “irrelevance” point I am trying to make though.

That is my point as well: your ‘irrelavence’ leads to Moral Relativity. According to your ‘irrelavence’ there is no need for good and evil

 

[Fieryjades]

Strength, I suggest that you clarify your terminology about being “pro-active” to ease communications and morality/religion is irrevelant. Furthermore, what I believe Seeks God is trying to say is without an absolute moral standard, we are left to equate Mother Teresa to Hitler. Do you judge morality by actions or intentions? Or, how do you judge morality in general?

 

[Seeks_God]

Fieryjades:

Strength, I suggest that you clarify your terminology about being “pro-active” to ease communications and morality/religion is irrevelant. Furthermore, what I believe Seeks God is trying to say is without an absolute moral standard, we are left to equate Mother Teresa to Hitler. Do you judge morality by actions or intentions? Or, how do you judge morality in general?

Yup…that’s exactly what I was saying…thank you!

 

[Strength]

I didn’t realize that I was talking to a group of people that were going to use any type of wanton deceit in attempts to stay fast to their ideal…WE MUST DEAL WITHIN CONTEXT IN THIS DISCUSSION… please do not insult my intelligence. hahhaahah

OBVIOUSLY we can affect people in negative ways everyday…the idea is of WILLFULL action…If I’m standing on a tall building eating an apple and I choke on a seed - spit it out and it falls down through the air and hits a kid in the eye…YEA HE WAS AFFECTED NEGATIVELY BY MY ACTION…but I did not WILLFULLY try and harm this person…nor was it the result of negligence or simple misconduct…DO NOT BE ABSURD…these are cheap little games you’re playing really - I would hope you would have more on the ball than that…cmon.

VociMike:

X marries a woman that Z wanted to marry. It affects Z very negatively.

X bought a house that Z wanted badly. It affected Z very negatively.

X had better test scores and got accepted at a university, keeping Z out. It affected Z very negatively.

X lifted a greater weight than Z, thus winning the Olympic gold medal and depriving Z of it. It affected Z very negatively.

How is it OK to use one’s money, one’s intelligence, one’s personality, one’s strength in a way that affects others negatively in these cases?

When would it not be OK to use one’s money, one’s intelligence, one’s personality, one’s strength to affect others negatively? What’s the difference?

The fact is, we affect each other negatively every day.

 

[Strength]

Everyone seems hung on the words “good and evil”…
Seeks God:

That is my point as well: your ‘irrelavence’ leads to Moral Relativity. According to your ‘irrelavence’ there is no need for good and evil