Your religion, your crutch?

[Seeks_God]

Strength,

Are you truly looking for answers or are you trying to defend your belief that there is no God?

Willful action still takes on some responsibility, as you are admitting (I think), to understand if it is bad, good, negative, positive, evil, whatever takes a standard. The people who believe in God have a hunch that that standard of judgement had to come from somewhere…

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

Everyone seems hung on the words “good and evil”…

we can use ‘positive and negative’ if you like. I can see that good and evil makes you uncomfortable

 

[Fieryjades]

Strength:

Forgive me…but you are wrong…if you’re making the assumption that all of the millions upon millions of muslims etc…don’t know about the christian god…They know, and they simply don’t believe…so they will go to hell. (that’s the rumor)

God doesn’t send us to hell. He gave us free will, meaning he won’t force us to love Him, serve Him, or listen to any of His teachings: he made humans, not robots! Unforturnately, they are some who CHOOSE to be separated from God in this life–and the next. (BTW I cannot say that anybody will be sent to hell since that’s God’s call, not mine, but I can say that an action is right or wrong based on God’s law) If God didn’t do so, He would not be just. God is just but He is evermore merciful.

Lord, have mercy on us and on all the whole world,
Fieryjades

 

[Strength]

Some clarifications…

My dictionary defines morality as: Rightness or wrongness as of an action. Right or moral conduct. Moral principles.

It doesn’t say anything about gods, god, supernatural, religion etc…

Good and evil doesn’t make me uncomfortable to say the least…it’s just absurd to play the extreme game…(which most people on this board seem to fall into)…I’m not meaning to insult but a lot of my religious friends are right wing reactionary in this way also…It’s amazing how many times Hitler gets brought up in an attempt to legitamize a concept.

What I was fishing for and looking for was someone to be completely honest with themselves and profess the fact that they simply don’t know (because they don’t…like I don’t)…The reasons we believe in the things we believe are almost overwhelmingly geographical, tied together with our paternal teachings, and a social/cultural backdrop…Look at a map…point to different countries, and do some research on what most of the population believes in these different locations…it’s quite fascinating…and IRRELEVANT to what we as human beings are capable of in structuring an orderly, moral society, that through strong intellect and logical teaching can create…instead of tempering our lack of understanding with religious ideology and hate, and segregation…etc…It is written in the bible that god did not come upon this earth to bring peace…but to bring the sword…you will be torn from your families…and your possessions lost. IT IS VERY TELLING…a lot of people on these boards talk about the great satanic deception…etc…etc… How could anyone of you even know what that is? You live your lives wallowing in a cobweb of fear, searching, longing and dishonesty…your dishonest with yourself…your insecure in the strength of your own mind…UNWILLING to help yourself…and praying for a god to help you…NONSENSE! Empower yourself…strengthen your mind…do not abuse your mind…it is pecious.Speaking of Satans deceptions…here’s a softball for you…What if Jesus was and is a Satanic deception? How would you even know the difference? (of course I don’t believe this…but everyone likes to throw around absurd hitler type arguments…so why can’t I?)…We need to make the world a better place…and we can’t do it with millions of people running around somehow convinced that they all know how we got here and where we are going. Someone mentioned that I believe that life has no purpose then…let me tell you something brothers and sisters…when I wake up in the morning, and walk out through the yard with my barefeet in the grass, the wind blowing through the trees, the fresh deep inhale of clean air and a blue sky above me…I could care less about god, gods, demons, ghosts or anything…I am supremely happy, and could not imagine a more wonderful existence…That is honesty…that is truth.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength,

I’m not offended in the least. Go look up good and evil too. I’m sure the dictionary doesn’t mention God. I’m willing to bet that the dictionary doesn’t mention God or morality when you look up postivie and negative as well.

I think you want people to accept that they cannot fully explain God. And you know what - you are correct. But it does not mean that we can’t attempt to describe Him or what He wants us to do with our lives. It is obvious that you want to accept whatever you see as good (or positive) and bad (or negative). I don’t beleive you can quantify, explain or rationalize something that is impossible for the human mind to fathom. Much like the mathematical concept of infinity - our minds cannot grasp it. Want me to admit that I cannot describe God or morality to its fullest? Okay, I admit that I am incapable of explaining God to you. But I am sure about one thing - I KNOW

(know cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gif)
v. knew, (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gif, nyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gif) known, (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifn) know·ing, **knows **
v. tr.

1. 
   *]To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
   *]To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won’t fail.
   *]To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.
   *]To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
   *]To have experience of: “a black stubble that had known no razor” (William Faulkner).
   *]
   1. • To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
        *]To be acquainted with: He doesn’t know his neighbors.
        *]To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
        *]To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.)
        
        that God exists.
        
        I think knowledge is relevant to one person and may not be to another.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

You live your lives wallowing in a cobweb of fear, searching, longing and dishonesty…your dishonest with yourself…your insecure in the strength of your own mind…UNWILLING to help yourself…and praying for a god to help you…NONSENSE!

See…that is one (among many) that you truly do not understand about believers…we do not fear God…we have hope.

 

[Strength]

Hey…I rambled on there for a second… heheeh - Good response…but while you may think that you know there is a god, and this god just happens to be the god of the bible…you are not really being honest with yourself, and I know that sounds mean…but that’s what faith is brother. The problem with your dictionary definition of “know” is that your using it as a buttress for the supernatural. Using “know” as in I know she won’t fail etc…really isn’t objective reality either…but we will not get into that…morality isn’t a supernatural concept …we can come to know what right and wrong is through pure intellect…we cannot know the supernatural…we can only have faith…If a one god was so easily evident…we would all have no problem conforming to the idea…instead of the 100’s of different religions throughout the world…Objective facts are not debateable…they cannot be argued at least by the sane. If I stick 40 people in a room…and drop a pencil…only a fool would argue that gravity didn’t bring it down…supernatural notions and mysticsm do not fall into this arena.
Seeks God:

Strength,

I’m not offended in the least. Go look up good and evil too. I’m sure the dictionary doesn’t mention God. I’m willing to bet that the dictionary doesn’t mention God or morality when you look up postivie and negative as well.

I think you want people to accept that they cannot fully explain God. And you know what - you are correct. But it does not mean that we can’t attempt to describe Him or what He wants us to do with our lives. It is obvious that you want to accept whatever you see as good (or positive) and bad (or negative). I don’t beleive you can quantify, explain or rationalize something that is impossible for the human mind to fathom. Much like the mathematical concept of infinity - our minds cannot grasp it. Want me to admit that I cannot describe God or morality to its fullest? Okay, I admit that I am incapable of explaining God to you. But I am sure about one thing - I KNOW

(know cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gif)
v. knew, (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gif, nyhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/oomacr.gif) known, (nhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifn) know·ing, **knows **
v. tr.

1. 
   *]To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty.
   *]To regard as true beyond doubt: I know she won’t fail.
   *]To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in: knows how to cook.
   *]To have fixed in the mind: knows her Latin verbs.
   *]To have experience of: “a black stubble that had known no razor” (William Faulkner).
   1. 
      *]
      • To perceive as familiar; recognize: I know that face.
        *]To be acquainted with: He doesn’t know his neighbors.
        *]To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct: knows right from wrong.
        *]To discern the character or nature of: knew him for a liar.)
        
        that God exists.
        
        I think knowledge is relevant to one person and may not be to another.

 

[Strength]

Most religions are fear based…it plays up into emotions…you don’t fear God…you fear the unknown…you fear hell…you are afraid that this may be all that there is to life
Seeks God:

See…that is one (among many) that you truly do not understand about believers…we do not fear God…we have hope.

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

Hey…I rambled on there for a second… heheeh - Good response…but while you may think that you know there is a god, and this god just happens to be the god of the bible…you are not really being honest with yourself, and I know that sounds mean…but that’s what faith is brother. The problem with your dictionary definition of “know” is that your using it as a buttress for the supernatural. Using “know” as in I know she won’t fail etc…really isn’t objective reality either…but we will not get into that…morality isn’t a supernatural concept …we can come to know what right and wrong is through pure intellect…we cannot know the supernatural…we can only have faith…If a one god was so easily evident…we would all have no problem conforming to the idea…instead of the 100’s of different religions throughout the world…Objective facts are not debateable…they cannot be argued at least by the sane. If I stick 40 people in a room…and drop a pencil…only a fool would argue that gravity didn’t bring it down…supernatural notions and mysticsm do not fall into this arena.

The problem I have when you argue your points is that you use objective reasoning when you defined “morality”, but you won’t accept objective reasoning when I “know” God.

I utterly agree that there are situations that cannot be explained - this is the exact reason I mentioned the Uncertainty principle. Most people who use objectivity to dis-prove God also use scientific means. You have established a battleground with rules of objectivity; but when someone confronts you with objectivity, you revert to subjectivity. Then somone confronts you with subjective reasoning about the proof of God and you return to objective reasoning. This is evidence of a highly irrational PERSON, not an irrational GOD.

It is obvious from your arguments that you live in a ‘modern’ world that dejects God. And you have your rights…

 

[Seeks_God]

Strength:

Most religions are fear based…it plays up into emotions…you don’t fear God…you fear the unknown…you fear hell…you are afraid that this may be all that there is to life

And what do you fear? Crime? Loosing your rear in stocks? Do you have fears? Do you have emotions? Can you explain emotions objectively or subjectively…

Honestly, I don’t really think you care. I have a hunch that you and the intellectually elite enjoy sitting around having a beer and laughing about our beliefs…which is ironic in itself, because that very act is what strengthens our faith.

 

[coralewis]

Strength:

Good and evil doesn’t make me uncomfortable to say the least…it’s just absurd to play the extreme game…(which most people on this board seem to fall into)…I’m not meaning to insult but a lot of my religious friends are right wing reactionary in this way also…It’s amazing how many times Hitler gets brought up in an attempt to legitamize a concept.

Why is it absurd to play the extreme game? What is wrong with calling some actions (murder, abortion, rape, and more) wrong and others (giving to others, saving people from fires, listening to a depressed friend, and more) right?

Strength:

What I was fishing for and looking for was someone to be completely honest with themselves and profess the fact that they simply don’t know (because they don’t…like I don’t)…The reasons we believe in the things we believe are almost overwhelmingly geographical, tied together with our paternal teachings, and a social/cultural backdrop…Look at a map…point to different countries, and do some research on what most of the population believes in these different locations…it’s quite fascinating…and IRRELEVANT to what we as human beings are capable of in structuring an orderly, moral society, that through strong intellect and logical teaching can create…instead of tempering our lack of understanding with religious ideology and hate, and segregation…etc…

Who says that religious ideologies produce hate? You didn’t explicity say that but you seem to be implying it. Jesus Christ teaches us to love others and turn the other cheek toward enemies. That sounds like the complete opposite of love to me.

Strength:

It is written in the bible that god did not come upon this earth to bring peace…but to bring the sword…you will be torn from your families…and your possessions lost. IT IS VERY TELLING…a lot of people on these boards talk about the great satanic deception…etc…etc… How could anyone of you even know what that is? You live your lives wallowing in a cobweb of fear, searching, longing and dishonesty…

Do we seem to be fearful creatures to you? Jesus says “be not afraid”. I’d rather trust in Him than trust my weak self to brave this world. Also…what is wrong with searching? Nothing. What is wrong with longing? It depends what you’re longing for. I long for non-Catholics to be Catholic and anti-lifers to be pro-life, and I long to be a better servant of God that I may worship Him eternally. As for dishonesty…I’ve lied before. I know others who have lied. I am not perfect. God is.

Strength:

your dishonest with yourself…your insecure in the strength of your own mind…UNWILLING to help yourself…and praying for a god to help you…NONSENSE! Empower yourself…strengthen your mind…do not abuse your mind…

Sometimes I’m way too honest with myself. When I’m disappointed in myself I tend to beat myself up and it takes the help of friends to help me smile again. Everybody is insecure, unless you know of some exceptions. God is my rock and my strength. With Him, I can achieve greater things than I can possibly imagine, and it’s for the good of others, too, because God loves everybody.

Strength:

it is pecious.Speaking of Satans deceptions…here’s a softball for you…What if Jesus was and is a Satanic deception? How would you even know the difference? (of course I don’t believe this…but everyone likes to throw around absurd hitler type arguments…so why can’t I?)…We need to make the world a better place…and we can’t do it with millions of people running around somehow convinced that they all know how we got here and where we are going.

What’s wrong with a bit of certainty? The world is confusing enough as it is. Why not believe that God created us lovingly to serve Him and others? Why not hope and know that we are going to Him?

Strength:

Someone mentioned that I believe that life has no purpose then…let me tell you something brothers and sisters…when I wake up in the morning, and walk out through the yard with my barefeet in the grass, the wind blowing through the trees, the fresh deep inhale of clean air and a blue sky above me…I could care less about god, gods, demons, ghosts or anything…I am supremely happy, and could not imagine a more wonderful existence…That is honesty…that is truth.

I am very glad that you are supremely happy. I love seeing a blue sky and enjoying some of God’s beautiful creation in nature, too. I’m just sad that you can’t imagine a more wonderful existence. Heaven is greater than any of us can imagine, so I’m definitely looking forward to that good 'ol life after death.

May God bless you abundantly,
Corinne

 

[Mom_of_5]

The very fact that you are questioning is a good sign. I also think you know the answer. Just being a good guy is really not enough. I know a lot of “good guys” who tell me that God says we “should not judge”, and so therefore all things are o.k., let God judge. Of course we MUST judge the actions of others, we cannot judge the soul. We leave that up to God. (The fact that we should not “judge” others I think, is one reason the jails are so full.) It is easier to sleep in on Sunday and tell yourself that since you are so good it is not necessary to go to church, practice religion, etc. Religion is for the sinner, and we are all sinners. I doubt that you are “too good” to be religious.

At our family reunion last summer, my cousin accused me of needing crutches…(the sacraments) She went on to say that she found it sad that there are those who feel the need for"crutches" to get through life and into the next. She then told me about the church (non-demonination) she was raising funds to build …something not right about this???Did she not need a crutch? What "crutches do you use in your life? Bet if you think hard enough, you would find some. We all have them…

Love and Peace

 

[puzzleannie]

the judgement of nations at the end of Matthew’s gospel tells us how God will judge us at the end of the world, and “being a good person” does not cut it.

 

[MonicaPA]

Seeks God:

Quantify?!?!? Even science, which I mentioned in an earlier post, is not capable of quantifying exactly. You are asking us to exactly quantify God - we can not, The Heisenberg Uncertainy Principle proves this.

Wasn’t it the great G.K. Chesterton who said the following:

“The poet seeks to put his head in the heavens; the logician seeks to put the heavens in his head…and it is his head that splits.”

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

Religion is more like doing physical therapy and giving up the crutch.

 

[theMutant]

Strength in post 14:

This statement makes a lot of assumptions…something can have a completely positive affect, and not be real…which destroys the true relevance in the face of neural strength. BESIDES which societies are you talking about?..What about native americans?..all of the South American peoples throughout the ages?..were they less of a society than a christian one? I don’t think so. Has the West declined? That’s debateble also. Good thoughtful answer though.

First of all, why are you changing the subject? Your original topic is not about whether or not God is real but about whether or not religion is a crutch. Even if you are right and there is no God, religion has been the basis of maintaining morality in societies throughout history. In regard to the American Indians, they were actually quite stable societies with clear rules and guidelines for behavior. However, they were also VERY religious societies, weren’t they? Now, there are certain things that were acceptable in those societies which we don’t agree with today, but your examples do nothing to support your original statements. The reason that the people of those societies abided by what they believed was right was based solely on religious grounds.

Strength:

See above reply

Not only did your “above reply” fail to address what it was supposed to, it has absolutely nothing to do with the second section to which you are now trying to apply it. This makes absolutely no sense!

Strength:

I’m moral…why? Cause and effect…intellect…the social contract with my fellow humans…etc…

But, once again, you fail to mention the cause. Exactly what cause has resulted in the effect of what you consider to be moral? I mentioned it in my original response and you have failed completely to address that. Intellect? Very intelligent people who abandoned the guidelines of religion came up with Hitler’s “final solution.” Yes, I know that you also are amazed at how many times Hitler gets brought up (although you don’t show why he is not a good example) so shall we try Stalin? The point is that intelligence doesn’t result in morality. The Nazis and Soviets abandoned religion and, relying solely on their intellect, chose to exterminate millions of people. What is the basis of the social contract with your fellow humans? Once again, without religion it is only how much you can get away with and not based on any idea of being good and, once again, the Nazi and Soviet regimes are perfect examples of this.

In your original post you asked what the theist can verifiably do that the non theist cannot. The answer is that he can give credit to God for knowing what is and is not good and can honor God by being good accordingly. The theist has an absolute concept of what is good and evil. The non theist cannot have such an absolute concept which means that what is considered good today can be considered bad 50 years from now - and vice versa.

 

[theMutant]

Strength:

but while you may think that you know there is a god, and this god just happens to be the god of the bible…you are not really being honest with yourself, and I know that sounds mean…but that’s what faith is brother.

Of course we can know God exists. Reason directs us to the knowledge that God exists through nature itself as well as through miracles. Now, it is revelation that allows us to know the God of Judaism and Christianity is the one true God. But the fact that every civilization known has formed some idea of God and established religion around those beliefs shows that reason leads people to believe in the existence of God.

 

[ex-mormon]

Originally Posted by Strength
*but while you may think that you know there is a god, and this god just happens to be the god of the bible…you are not really being honest with yourself, and I know that sounds mean…but that’s what faith is brother. *

Strength:

Most religions are fear based…it plays up into emotions…you don’t fear God…you fear the unknown…you fear hell…you are afraid that this may be all that there is to life

Strength,

Most religions are faith based, faith drives our intelect and emotions in wanting to be with our maker. No one is born a Christian or atheist. People choose to become Christians as much as they choose to become atheist. And no matter how vigorously you try to deny it, atheism is a belief system. It requires faith that God does not exist, not logical evaluation of the natural world. Is your faith that there is no God a fear of the unknown. We do not fear hell, we fear that our atheist brothern who knew Christ then denied him will end up there. We have faith that there is life after death and fear for those that we know and love that believe there is nothing after this mortal exsistance.

Atheists will argue that there is no God. This statement is logically not defensible. An atheist would have to know everything and be everywere in order to be able to say from his “logical” knowledge that there is no God. Only an atheist that is capable of being in all places at the same time, with a perfect knowledge of everything in exsistance, can make such a statement based on fact. A person would have to be God in order to say there is no God.

There is no such thing as an atheist in a fox-hole, and there are rarely any on their deathbeds, for fear that their maker will not welcome them with open arms into his kingdom. I will pray that you will unharden your heart and embrace your creator with all the love that he has put into your exsistance.

God bless and good luck,

ex-mo

 

[theMutant]

ex-mormon:

Atheists will argue that there is no God. This statement is logically not defensible. An atheist would have to know everything and be everywere in order to be able to say from his “logical” knowledge that there is no God. Only an atheist that is capable of being in all places at the same time, with a perfect knowledge of everything in exsistance, can make such a statement based on fact. A person would have to be God in order to say there is no God.

Excellent point ex-mo! The fact is that to believe that there is no God is an act of faith and nothing more. I will restate one of my points from post #3. Which is the greater crutch; believing that there is a God who has set standards by which you should live or that there is no God so that you can live in any way you want?