Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[Esrb99]

Then those seminarians will hardly be competent priests, if they are incapable of following clear Church teaching and opening themselves up to actual understanding of the forms.

While the strong language the poster used about seminarians’ attitude to the OF can be troubling, it can be shown that at least within the vatican holding a scholarly opinion that the OF very possibly contains artificial deficiencies seems to be acceptable.

In the scholarly journal Usus Antiquior, Msgr. Andrew R. Wadsworth, General Secretary of the International Commission on English in the Liturgy (ICEL) and Executive Director of the ICEL Secretariat reviewed the book Work of Human Hands by Fr. Anthony Cekada, a noted Sede. Of note, Cekada’s book deals with the original Latin of the OF, and the comparison of it to the latin of the EF mass (ordinary and propers of both forms)

Here are some excerpts from what Msgr Wadsworth said about the book:

"Unlike most critiques of the Novus Ordo which tend to concentrate on analysis of the Ordo Missae, Fr Cekada’s work (both in 1991 and 2010) considers the corpus of proper texts in the Missal in an attempt to assemble a comprehensive picture of the theological implications of the liturgical reform. The scarcity of this genre is testimony to the fact that forty years after the Council, we are still awaiting serious scholarship on these texts, the manner in which they were produced and the guiding principles which shaped their composition.
…
The study certainly goes a long way in reconstructing the all-important narrative of how the liturgical reform came about. In many ways it makes a legitimate claim to being the fullest account of this narrative currently available in English.
…
I remain grateful for this study which … represents a genuinely informative work and an important contribution to the current debate…I hope this brief review will encourage others to read it.”

Msgr. Wadsworth’s review of Work of Human Hands appears in Usus Antiquior, Vol. 2, No. 2 (July 2011), 172–3.

Considering that this ‘far too harsh’ language by FSSP seminarians is being mentioned secondhand and by a layman, we don’t know how harsh or whether they crossed some line determined as schismatic. As such, claiming these men will or will not be good priests because of this is here-say.

 

[Baelor]

Considering that this ‘far too harsh’ language by FSSP seminarians is being mentioned secondhand and by a layman, we don’t know how harsh or whether they crossed some line determined as schismatic. As such, claiming these men will or will not be good priests because of this is here-say.

My statement was, of course, made with the assumption that they did in fact say too-harsh things. One can see this from the form of my statement, which was an apodosis.

 

[10thCrusader]

There’s a lot of talk on the amount of people the EF is attracting, and whether it truly is attracting swaths of ‘youth’ or not. Bear in mind that the EF at times may not in the best locations in a city, or in buildings that cannot accommodate 5000+ people a day or the masses for 5000 people on a sunday. Priests are still limited to 2 masses without a dispensation from the Bishop. Even when societies of apostolic life like the FSSP or ICRSS are at the head of a parish/oratory, their priests are spread so thin that it’s rarely more than 2 priests there on any given day. And when there are three, it’s likely they will celebrate Solemn mass, as that is seen as the highest expression of the sacrifice offered to God. It’s supposed to be the standard, actually.

But even with all of these factors, some dioceses have a sizable flock for their EF apostolates.

If I had to guess, the archdiocese’s warm response to the institute and faithful attached to the EF has played a big part in this flourishing community.

Thanks for the additional information. It looks like there are a number of flourishing EF communities in Illinois. Perhaps the other posts to the contrary are from fans of the Novus Ordo Missae sniping in the Traditional Catholicism forum. Also, when they say the youth are flocking to the OF Mass, are they including people brought there by their parents or grandparents, who really have no choice in where they go to Mass?

Do you find that the crowd is younger at the EF Mass? I know that is definitely the case here in Seattle, and also where I attended previously in Pittsburgh.

 

[thewanderer]

Thanks for the additional information. It looks like there are a number of flourishing EF communities in Illinois. Perhaps the other posts to the contrary are from fans of the Novus Ordo Missae sniping in the Traditional Catholicism forum. Also, when they say the youth are flocking to the OF Mass, are they including people brought there by their parents or grandparents, who really have no choice in where they go to Mass?

Do you find that the crowd is younger at the EF Mass? I know that is definitely the case here in Seattle, and also where I attended previously in Pittsburgh.

I sure hope you’re not including me in this. I don’t live in illinois and I have absolutely no doubt that the EF is doing well there, and that it is doing well there among the young. When I bring up the fact that I know many young people who prefer the OF I am not trying to say that the EF isn’t doing well among the young. I am not trying to set up a dichotomy between the two. In fact, what I’m trying to do is make sure that people on this thread don’t set up a dichotomy between the two and assume that just because there are so many young people coming to the EF that it must mean that there aren’t any good OF parishes with plenty of young people there of their own free will. The young people I have been talking about who prefer the OF to the easily accessible EF are definitely there of their own free will. While I am well aware that there are many, many, OF parishes that are losing parishoners, and in particular young parishoners, I am just trying to point out that this is not at all the case for all OF parishes, even if there is an easily accesible EF nearby. I entirely agree with the sentiment in the 1st post here that there are many young people who love the EF, I just want to make sure that no-one makes the mistaken assumption that therefore there is something about the OF as such that makes it less likeable to the young, because that is just plain false. I would love for the EF to become even more common and for everyone to get a chance to experience it, and for everyone who prefers it to have access to it, I am in no way shape or form denigrating the EF by pointing out that I have seen many young people who have experienccced the EF and still prefer the OF, that is just a fact.

 

[Faithdancer]

The number of parishes in the Diocese of San Bernardino offering the Traditional Latin Mass= 1. This parish, San Secondo d’Asti, offers two TLM’s per week. I can’t speak for the Saturday 6:30 AM Mass, but last time I attended the Sunday 10:30 AM Mass it was packed, with all ages well-represented.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

So my perspective is unimportant. Gee thanks.

Well I’ve been to the FSSP seminary and the young men there (who outnumber the sems at my Archdiocesan seminary, by the way, just saying) are not just rebelling against non-traditional OF. I’ve heard some say things even I think were far too harsh on the OF, even when celebrated reverently.

I can guarantee you that not one of them would come back to the OF no matter how much tradition was infused.

The EF and the OF are different. And Pope Benedict would disagree with you that the OF is supposed to destroy and replace the EF.

I doubt anyone is trying to assert that “the OF is supposed to destroy and replace the EF.”

However, those young men at the FSSP seminary had better be careful, because the OF is the *Ordinary *form and they would do well to remember that, and to be respectful when speaking of it. The FSSP is not supposed to be an “SPPX-lite” with all the ridiculous things they have said about the Ordinary Form.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I think it is more common in the Midwest. Our Archdiocese has 7 parishes that have an EF Mass, 4 that having it on Sundays. All of those are said by diocesan priests ( instead of Order priests like the FSSP).

Not only have we had support from our bishops, but our bishops will actually celebrate the EF Mass.

But I’ve found they are rather rare on the coasts.
That might change in Portland, OR though, with the appointment of Bishop Sample as Archbishop there. He is formerly of Marquette MI.

I have been at a High Pontifical Mass that he celebrated.

I have to say that the Diocese of Arlington is an exception to that. Apparently so is the diocese in FL where Br JR lives (Miami?)

 

[DarkLight]

Someone find me one of these parishes? Our local EF mass is definitely NOT friendly to contemporary young adults! I’d love to go more, but not really there…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Why is it that even a post like this, which is supposed to be a good thing and good news…always turns out to be sniping about the OF? And anyone who disagrees automatically becomes fodder? Are traditionalist allowed to snipe at the OF anywhere they please (both in the trad forums as well as Lit and Sac) but no one who LIKES the OF (properly celebrated of course) is allowed to speak up and defend?

Why is one constantly pitted against the other? Really? Is this what we mean when we pray for unity at Mass?

BTW…Bishop Samples won’t be doing a high Mass at the Cathedral in Portland, OR…it’s not built for one.

 

[ProVobis]

Why is it that even a post like this, which is supposed to be a good thing and good news…always turns out to be sniping about the OF?

I don’t know about that. It took 16 posts to get down to sniping. But it was about the EF.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Someone find me one of these parishes? Our local EF mass is definitely NOT friendly to contemporary young adults! I’d love to go more, but not really there…

Huh? Is the EF not friendly to contemporary young adults or are some young adults rejecting the EF for whatever reasons? I hope you don’t think the EF should change just to suit young people. At the FSSP where I attend the TLM we have a large number of young adults, some with children in tow, at every Mass and we have no problem getting altar boys.

 

[10thCrusader]

So my perspective is unimportant. Gee thanks.

Well I’ve been to the FSSP seminary and the young men there (who outnumber the sems at my Archdiocesan seminary, by the way, just saying) are not just rebelling against non-traditional OF. I’ve heard some say things even I think were far too harsh on the OF, even when celebrated reverently.

I can guarantee you that not one of them would come back to the OF no matter how much tradition was infused.

The EF and the OF are different. And Pope Benedict would disagree with you that the OF is supposed to destroy and replace the EF.

Perhaps you misunderstand the FSSP Charism. When the FSSP was instituted, they made it plain that they would celebrate only the EF Mass per the 1962 Missal. It’s is even a part of their vows as an order. The Pope approved their order under those conditions - no rebelling - it’s just their charism. If an FSSP seminarian said anything that questioned the validity of the OF, he would be disciplined by the Order, and certainly there has been no public statement from anyone in the Order to that effect.

We have FSSP priests in our parish, and they have been constantly proper, charitable and humble. They spend hours every week in the confessional, and people come from all over Seattle to make their confessions there - even those who never come to the EF Mass. They are doing a great service to the Diocese of Seattle, and I guess it really annoys me to hear people cast aspersions on the FSSP.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Why is it that even a post like this, which is supposed to be a good thing and good news…always turns out to be sniping about the OF? And anyone who disagrees automatically becomes fodder? Are traditionalist allowed to snipe at the OF anywhere they please (both in the trad forums as well as Lit and Sac) but no one who LIKES the OF (properly celebrated of course) is allowed to speak up and defend?

Why is one constantly pitted against the other? Really? Is this what we mean when we pray for unity at Mass?

BTW…Bishop Samples won’t be doing a high Mass at the Cathedral in Portland, OR…it’s not built for one.

In principle I agree, but in practice they are so vastly and extremely different in celebration as to not appear much alike at all. Comparing, whether in one’s mind or out loud, is natural. It is what people do and it will never just stop.

What do you mean Abp. Sample will not be doing a High Mass? If you mean that he will not celebrate in the Extraordinary Form, that is probably true. But if you mean that he will be celebrating without music and with only minimalist ceremony, I am not sure that is true.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

In principle I agree, but in practice they are so vastly and extremely different in celebration as to not appear much alike at all. Comparing, whether in one’s mind or out loud, is natural. It is what people do and it will never just stop.

What do you mean Abp. Sample will not be doing a High Mass? If you mean that he will not celebrate in the Extraordinary Form, that is probably true. But if you mean that he will be celebrating without music and with only minimalist ceremony, I am not sure that is true.

I guess what I meant is the TLM…not at the Cathedral anyway. They always have music…at least the times I’ve been there. But the tabernacle is off to the side in a separate room…I personally don’t like that…

I suppose you are right about the comparison but it does give me an unfavorable opinion of traditionalist…so I can always pray that it will. I also dislike that when someone sticks up for the OF…some people will treat you like you are not a faithful Catholic.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I don’t know about that. It took 16 posts to get down to sniping. But it was about the EF.

Really? “The OF as passe”. “The OF pales in comparison”…“stuck in the 70’s”? That is complementary? This is not the only thread I’ve seen it on…

 

[Bob_Aliano]

I often hear and I often say things like “I prefer the TLM to an OF Mass because…” but I rarely hear and I never say the OF is no good, not Catholic or anything like that, we cannot in fact without defying the order given by the holy Father when he re-instituted the TLM. I attend both depending on the circumstances of the day, travel location and the like and feel reasonably comfortable at either but as I said earlier, I prefer the TLM and I believe that to be the general attitude.

 

[10thCrusader]

Really? “The OF as passe”. “The OF pales in comparison”…“stuck in the 70’s”? That is complementary? This is not the only thread I’ve seen it on…

Neither I nor anyone here denies the validity of the OF, but I see nothing wrong with saying why we prefer the EF, or the reasons why the youth might possibly prefer the EF. After all, this is the Traditional Catholicism Forum.

BTW, have you ever been to the EF Mass? Have you ever compared the wording of the Liturgy between the two forms?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Neither I nor anyone here denies the validity of the OF, but I see nothing wrong with saying why we prefer the EF, or the reasons why the youth might possibly prefer the EF. After all, this is the Traditional Catholicism Forum.

BTW, have you ever been to the EF Mass? Have you ever compared the wording of the Liturgy between the two forms?

If you can’t do it without bashing the other…yes…that is a problem.

Yes I have compared the wording of the two and remember from my youth. It is not my cup of tea-personally:shrug:

Did you see the part of my post where I say this goes on in other forums on CAF? I see people who hang out at the traditional forums then also go over to lit and sac to bash the OF. But heaven forbid anyone stand up for it. Again, I don’t think this brings unity nor is it part f the New Evangelization…it was an observation and annoyance on my part.

 

[thewanderer]

If you can’t do it without bashing the other…yes…that is a problem.

Yes I have compared the wording of the two and remember from my youth. It is not my cup of tea-personally:shrug:

Did you see the part of my post where I say this goes on in other forums on CAF? I see people who hang out at the traditional forums then also go over to lit and sac to bash the OF. But heaven forbid anyone stand up for it. Again, I don’t think this brings unity nor is it part f the New Evangelization…it was an observation and annoyance on my part.

This exactly!!!

10th Crusader, this is why I picked out your post originally. I have no problem with people explaining why they prefer the EF, so long as they do so in a manner which is still respectful of the OF. The way you phrased it came off as if you were trying to denigrate the OF, which is really not appreciated. And this isn’t just a one-sided rant because I personally prefer the OF, if you recall I called out Baelor on his wording which seemed to denigrate the EF earlier in this thread as well. Why is it so difficult for people to explain the differences between the two forms respectfully?

 

[10thCrusader]

If you can’t do it without bashing the other…yes…that is a problem.

Yes I have compared the wording of the two and remember from my youth. It is not my cup of tea-personally:shrug:

Did you see the part of my post where I say this goes on in other forums on CAF? I see people who hang out at the traditional forums then also go over to lit and sac to bash the OF. But heaven forbid anyone stand up for it. Again, I don’t think this brings unity nor is it part f the New Evangelization…it was an observation and annoyance on my part.

I haven’t seen those posts on other forums on CAF, so I can’t really comment on them. I’m not really trying to pit one form against the other. I just prefer the EF over the OF, and I have good reasons why. If those reasons are offensive to others, I am sorry.

And BTW, I have often seen “unity” used as a euphemism for “do things my way.”