Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[DarkLight]

Huh? Is the EF not friendly to contemporary young adults or are some young adults rejecting the EF for whatever reasons? I hope you don’t think the EF should change just to suit young people. At the FSSP where I attend the TLM we have a large number of young adults, some with children in tow, at every Mass and we have no problem getting altar boys.

It’s more that the sorts of people we seem to have at the EF mass are not friendly to contemporary young adults.

 

[thewanderer]

It’s more that the sorts of people we seem to have at the EF mass are not friendly to contemporary young adults.

Yeah… you do find that from place to place, the first EF church I ever went to it was very clear that they would look down on you as being immodest if you wore pants… but then again, that was an sspx church… However I have since been to Churches with the EF where people were much more welcoming of todays young adults. They do really exist, it sounds like you are just unfortunate in your experiences…

 

[maryjk]

I haven’t seen those posts on other forums on CAF, so I can’t really comment on them. I’m not really trying to pit one form against the other. I just prefer the EF over the OF, and I have good reasons why. If those reasons are offensive to others, I am sorry.

And BTW, I have often seen “unity” used as a euphemism for “do things my way.”

There is no problem saying you prefer the EF because you find it beautiful. You find it reverent. You like the “smells and bells.”

The problem comes when someone says they prefer the EF because the OF isn’t reverent enough. Or because people at the OF receive in the hand. Or because the OF is … whatever.

Talk positively about the form you like. But don’t do it by bashing the other form.

 

[TimothyH]

Perhaps you misunderstand the FSSP Charism. When the FSSP was instituted, they made it plain that they would celebrate only the EF Mass per the 1962 Missal. It’s is even a part of their vows as an order. The Pope approved their order under those conditions - no rebelling - it’s just their charism. If an FSSP seminarian said anything that questioned the validity of the OF, he would be disciplined by the Order, and certainly there has been no public statement from anyone in the Order to that effect.

We have FSSP priests in our parish, and they have been constantly proper, charitable and humble. They spend hours every week in the confessional, and people come from all over Seattle to make their confessions there - even those who never come to the EF Mass. They are doing a great service to the Diocese of Seattle, and I guess it really annoys me to hear people cast aspersions on the FSSP.

FSSP priests do not make vows to “celebrate only the EF Mass.” There is no such vow in the Catholic Church.

From the FSSP website…

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical right, that is, a community of Roman Catholic priests who do not take religious vows, but who work together for a common mission in the world. The mission of the Fraternity is two-fold: first, the formation and sanctification of priests in the cadre of the traditional liturgy of the Roman rite, and secondly, the pastoral deployment of the priests in the service of the Church.

The FSSP is not an order but is a Society of Apostolic Life of pontifical right, and so their members make promises, not vows. Celebrating only the EF Mass is not one of their promises.

-Tim-

 

[Brendan]

Then those seminarians will hardly be competent priests, if they are incapable of following clear Church teaching and opening themselves up to actual understanding of the forms…

Actually, the will. They are religiuos priests, not secular\diocesan priests and as such are obligated by the Church to follow the charisms of their Rule.

If the Church has seen fit to approve such a Rule that allows for the EF alone (as is the case), then priests within the order who follow their approved rule are doing is in fulfillment of clear Church teaching. For them to do otherwise would be for them to fail to do what the Church has set out for them.

As the follow their rule, they show that appropriate level of understanding of other Forms, namely, that those forms are not where God is calling them.

It is no different that an Franciscan knowing that the Dominican Rite is not for him.

 

[10thCrusader]

FSSP priests do not make vows to “celebrate only the EF Mass.” There is no such vow in the Catholic Church.

From the FSSP website…

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter is a Clerical Society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical right, that is, a community of Roman Catholic priests who do not take religious vows, but who work together for a common mission in the world. The mission of the Fraternity is two-fold: first, the formation and sanctification of priests in the cadre of the traditional liturgy of the Roman rite, and secondly, the pastoral deployment of the priests in the service of the Church.

The FSSP is not an order but is a Society of Apostolic Life of pontifical right, and so their members make promises, not vows. Celebrating only the EF Mass is not one of their promises.

-Tim-

Thanks for the clarification on this. I thought they had made this vow (promise?) However, they definitely have a charism for the EF Mass per the 1962 Missal.

 

[TimothyH]

Actually, the will. They are religiuos priests, not secular\diocesan priests and as such are obligated by the Church to follow the charisms of their Rule.

If the Church has seen fit to approve such a Rule that allows for the EF alone (as is the case), then priests within the order who follow their approved rule are doing is in fulfillment of clear Church teaching. For them to do otherwise would be for them to fail to do what the Church has set out for them.

As the follow their rule, they show that appropriate level of understanding of other Forms, namely, that those forms are not where God is calling them.

It is no different that an Franciscan knowing that the Dominican Rite is not for him.

The FSSP is not an order.

FSSP priests are not religious priests.

The Church did not “approve such a Rule that allows for the EF alone.” There are five Rules of Life recognized by the Catholic Church - the Rule of St. Benedict, the rule of St. Augustine, the Rule of St. Francis, and two others which I forgot. To my knowledge, none of them contain anything about the form of the Mass. Even if one, or even all of the Rules contained instruction on the form of the Mass to be used, the FSSP is a Society of Apostolic Life, not an order, and they do not live by one of the Rules.

The FSSP has to be invited into the diocese in which they operate and are under the authority of the local bishop. They cannot refuse to celebrate the OF.

I really have no desire to get involved in an EF vs OF debate, but facts are facts, and I am a big fan of the truth. If I have gotten anything wrong, I would love to be corrected.

-Tim-

 

[Lawrence178]

Then those seminarians will hardly be competent priests, if they are incapable of following clear Church teaching and opening themselves up to actual understanding of the forms.

Again, irrelevant to the larger demographic question.

Since I never made that claim, Pope Benedict would not disagree with me. Get behind me, strawman!

“I would also hope that the return to tradition manifests itself in the OF and that it will be celebrated as intended, thus decreasing demand for the EF.”

Celebration of the OF in a proper way won’t decrease demand for the EF. The EF and OF are different things. And I have a hundred FSSP seminarians behind me on that one. As well as all of their priests.

Not representative of the larger demographic? What makes you so knowledgeable about it? Surely a hundred seminarians and an entire Society of Apostolic Life is something.

It does not make one a bad priest or seminarian to not like the OF. Even Pope Benedict criticized it in his “Spirit of the Liturgy” book. Maybe someone will help me out with the page number, but I was shocked when I read what he had to say about it.

 

[DarkLight]

Yeah… you do find that from place to place, the first EF church I ever went to it was very clear that they would look down on you as being immodest if you wore pants… but then again, that was an sspx church… However I have since been to Churches with the EF where people were much more welcoming of todays young adults. They do really exist, it sounds like you are just unfortunate in your experiences…

Yeah, I wish there was another parish around here that celebrated the EF. We’ve only got one in the area, and it seems to be the preserve of the ultra-conservative homeschooling movement. I sort of felt like I’d stepped back in time in a bad way. The Mass itself is incredibly beautiful, though!

I also sort of like what our parish does for the First Friday masses. It’s OF with all the songs in Latin, including stuff like the Agnus Dei, Good mix, really.

 

[Baelor]

Actually, the will. They are religiuos priests, not secular\diocesan priests and as such are obligated by the Church to follow the charisms of their Rule.

It does not matter. Any priest who is not in line with Church teaching can hardly be called fully competent.

Celebration of the OF in a proper way won’t decrease demand for the EF. The EF and OF are different things.

That does not mean that every EF-attendee’s reason for attending that Mass has only to do with the EF. Because of this, it is certainly plausible that the state of the OF affects numbers at the EF, and vice-versa. This should hardly be a surprise.

Not representative of the larger demographic? What makes you so knowledgeable about it? Surely a hundred seminarians and an entire Society of Apostolic Life is something.

Not when there are hundreds of millions of Catholics.

It does not make one a bad priest or seminarian to not like the OF.

I never claimed that it did.

 

[Cat]

They seem to have a lot of places in Illinois where the EF is available. Maybe it’s just the Illinois area that’s different, as the comments from Illinois seem to have experienced different reactions to the EF. I have been in areas where the EF was celebrated because the people demanded it, and the diocese was resistant. In those places, it is celebrated only as the Low Mass, and as dryly and minimally as possible. Maybe this is the case in Illinois.

Also, I wonder how many who commented from Illinois have actually attended the EF Mass, and seen who actually is there. Or did they get their information second-hand?

That’s probably true. It would seem like traditional Protestant liturgy as a lot of the OF follows Thomas Cranmer’s Godly Order. However, I want the Catholic Mass, not a traditional Protestant service.

Why the accusations? Having attended the EF for many years, I have borne with these type of accusations and lame excuses many times, ie:

• The abuses seen in the OF are mere isolated incidents, and you would not prefer the EF, if you saw the OF celebrated properly - Then why is it so easy to incorporate these abuses into the OF?
• You are being divisive - You mean like when the OF was forced on everyone post-VII and huge numbers fell away from the Church in confusion?
• Those who attend the EF deny validity of the OF. (or call it a “horrible abomination”), - How many times have people put words in my mouth or accused my thoughts or attitudes unjustly when they find out I prefer the EF? The vast majority of people who attend the EF are obedient to the Church and do not question the validity of the EF. Who’s being divisive here?

Again, the whole point of this thread was the original article from RealClearReligion that the trend in the EF Mass was for a much younger demographic, not to criticize the OF.

 

[Cat]

They seem to have a lot of places in Illinois where the EF is available. Maybe it’s just the Illinois area that’s different, as the comments from Illinois seem to have experienced different reactions to the EF. I have been in areas where the EF was celebrated because the people demanded it, and the diocese was resistant. In those places, it is celebrated only as the Low Mass, and as dryly and minimally as possible. Maybe this is the case in Illinois.

The bishops in our diocese have been wonderfully supportive of the EF Mass, and also of the OF Mass.

I would not say that it is celebrated dryly and minimally. But there is a limitation, though, on how magnificent the music can be because of the small size of the schola, which is taught by an extremely well-qualified musician and organist.

I know quite a few people in the choir at the TLM parish, and they don’t pine about how small they are, but rather, take great delight in the music that they prepare and work hard at presenting it skillfully.

Also, I wonder how many who commented from Illinois have actually attended the EF Mass, and seen who actually is there. Or did they get their information second-hand?

I get the information from our diocescan newpaper. Also, I have several good friends in that parish and hear it from them.

That’s probably true. It would seem like traditional Protestant liturgy as a lot of the OF follows Thomas Cranmer’s Godly Order. However, I want the Catholic Mass, not a traditional Protestant service.

Forgive me for not being clear in my post. The “traditional Protestant service” of the Lutherans and other liturgical Protestants was originally derived from the Catholic Latin Mass back during the Reformation. Martin Luther and the other Reformers did not up-end the Mass, but “tweaked it.”

Why the accusations? Having attended the EF for many years, I have borne with these type of accusations and lame excuses many times, ie:

• The abuses seen in the OF are mere isolated incidents, and you would not prefer the EF, if you saw the OF celebrated properly - Then why is it so easy to incorporate these abuses into the OF?

Again, I apologize if I was not clear. I thought that I made it clear in my post that I understand that the EF Mass is a preference for people, and having an abuse-free, reverent OF Mass will not change their preference.

• You are being divisive - You mean like when the OF was forced on everyone post-VII and huge numbers fell away from the Church in confusion?

As an ex-Protestant, I have no context here. To me, the OF Mass has always been, because that is all I have ever known since I became interested in Catholicism around 10 years ago. It wasn’t forced on me. I do understand that being forced to give up a beloved tradition is heartbreaking, but honestly, it happened constantly in the evangelical churches, and still does. Just when we get used to one musical style, it goes out of style and a new style is embraced. Or just when one speaker/pastor/teacher gets popular, he or she is “out” and a new person comes along to replace them. I’m sorry, I know that all this seems trivial to those of you who were and still are devoted to the Latin Mass, but it’s all I have. I didn’t grow up Catholic, and I truly don’t “get” the immense attachment to a Mass form, and probably never will. To me, the Mass is all about Jesus, and He is the Same yesterday, today, and forever. The form of the Mass doesn’t matter. That’s my take on it as an ex-evangelical Protestant.

• Those who attend the EF deny validity of the OF. (or call it a “horrible abomination”), - How many times have people put words in my mouth or accused my thoughts or attitudes unjustly when they find out I prefer the EF? The vast majority of people who attend the EF are obedient to the Church and do not question the validity of the EF. Who’s being divisive here?

Again, the whole point of this thread was the original article from RealClearReligion that the trend in the EF Mass was for a much younger demographic, not to criticize the OF.

I totally agree with you that the vast majority of people who attend the EF are obedient to the Church, and do not question the validity of the OF (I think that’s what you meant to type). All the friends that I have who attend the TLM in my city are great Christians and I’m always glad to spend time with them. I just spend some time with one of them this weekend–a man that I have known for years, and because of his faithfulness and honesty, was a fantastic testimony to me of the Catholic Church as the True Church of Jesus Christ. (We were in a public sporting venue surrounded by thousands of people, so don’t get alarmed, everyone!)

 

[JReducation]

Well I’ve been to the FSSP seminary and the young men there (who outnumber the sems at my Archdiocesan seminary, by the way, just saying) are not just rebelling against non-traditional OF. I’ve heard some say things even I think were far too harsh on the OF, even when celebrated reverently…

It’s not unusual for the young to be over zealous; but as they progress in formation and in experience they tend to reach the middle ground. We have to be patient.

A friend of mine who is a religious was telling me about the novices in his community being very critical because they had several choices of cereal for breakfast. Of course, this is a house with more than 30 men, probably different ages. From the perspective of the novices, this was a violation of poverty. They were not stopping to think that even if you have five choices of cereal

a. No single person owns any of those boxes

b. No single person is going to eat all five

c. There can be individuals who have different dietary needs.

But when one is young, one has a difficult time seeing the bigger picture. As one matures in the formation process, one discovers that bigger picture and one moves closer to the center.

Of course, it’s the duty of the formation director to help these men along by correcting their perceptions. But this takes time and patience. We can’t rush growth.

 

[Lawrence178]

Perhaps you misunderstand the FSSP Charism. When the FSSP was instituted, they made it plain that they would celebrate only the EF Mass per the 1962 Missal. It’s is even a part of their vows as an order. The Pope approved their order under those conditions - no rebelling - it’s just their charism. If an FSSP seminarian said anything that questioned the validity of the OF, he would be disciplined by the Order, and certainly there has been no public statement from anyone in the Order to that effect.

We have FSSP priests in our parish, and they have been constantly proper, charitable and humble. They spend hours every week in the confessional, and people come from all over Seattle to make their confessions there - even those who never come to the EF Mass. They are doing a great service to the Diocese of Seattle, and I guess it really annoys me to hear people cast aspersions on the FSSP.

I don’t question the validity of the New Mass nor do the seminarians and priests.

 

[Aran_Houlihan]

I agree with you Lawrence but I do question bout some ways how the mass is said and how relax the liturgy is .

In nomine Patris, + et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
Introibo ad altare Dei. R: Ad deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

 

[10thCrusader]

Actually the FSSP Seminary, where the charism is the celebration of the OF,is another indication of how the EF calls to the youth. I understand the FSSP Seminary is not only full, but has a waiting list. An increase in vocations has to be an indicator.

 

[floresco]

The FSSP is not an order.

FSSP priests are not religious priests.

The Church did not “approve such a Rule that allows for the EF alone.” There are five Rules of Life recognized by the Catholic Church - the Rule of St. Benedict, the rule of St. Augustine, the Rule of St. Francis, and two others which I forgot. To my knowledge, none of them contain anything about the form of the Mass. Even if one, or even all of the Rules contained instruction on the form of the Mass to be used, the FSSP is a Society of Apostolic Life, not an order, and they do not live by one of the Rules.

The FSSP has to be invited into the diocese in which they operate and are under the authority of the local bishop. They cannot refuse to celebrate the OF.

I really have no desire to get involved in an EF vs OF debate, but facts are facts, and I am a big fan of the truth. If I have gotten anything wrong, I would love to be corrected.

As you say, the FSSP is a Society of Apostolic Life. As such, they are governed by Constitutions approved by the Holy See. Significant excerpts are available online: fssp.org/en/constitu.htm
I draw you attention to:

1. The Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter is a clerical society of Apostolic Life of Pontifical Right whose members, according to the terms of the law, pursue the proper apostolic aim of the society, and, by leading a communal life according to a specific form, strives towards the perfection of charity by the observance of the Constitution. (see CIC Can. 731, §1)

1. The particular aim of the Fraternity of Saint Peter is to achieve this objective through the faithful observance of the “liturgical and spiritual traditions” according to the dispositions of the Motu proprio Ecclesia Dei of July 2, 1988, which is at the origin of its foundation.

The reference to Ecclesia Dei is to this passage in particular:

6a) a Commission is instituted whose task it will be to collaborate with the bishops, with the Departments of the Roman Curia and with the circles concerned, for the purpose of facilitating full ecclesial communion of priests, seminarians, religious communities or individuals until now linked in various ways to the Fraternity founded by Mons. Lefebvre, who may** wish to remain united to the Successor Peter in the Catholic Church, while preserving their spiritual and liturgical traditions,** in the light of the Protocol signed on 5 May last by Cardinal Ratzinger and Mons. Lefebvre;

While perhaps, in theory, they could not refuse to celebrate the OF if asked by their bishop (I am not enough of a canonist to know) a bishop making such a request would clearly be wrong. He would be asking them to violate their Constitutions.

Edited to add: Those people who claim that the FSSP is an order with a Rule that prevents them from saying the OF are getting the terminology wrong but are essentially correct. The FSSP is a Society with Constitutions that prevent them from saying the OF. They are committed to faithful observance of “spiritual and liturgical traditions” that include the EF.

 

[Melchior_1]

Constitutions are different than the Rule. As an exmaple, the Dominicans can suspend their constitutions to assist with the primary charism (preaching), but they can’t suspend the Rule of Augustine.

It’s an interesting situation. The FSSP has Pontifical Right, which gives some exemptions, such as bypassing a diocesan bishop. A local bishop can’t force them to celebrate the OF per-say. But on the flip side, no group can outlaw what is Ordinary. If the FSSP gets a request that they must say the OF from someone with the authority to do so, they’re going to have to comply because they can’t outlaw the Ordinary. If the Forms were flipped and the EF became the “new” OF, then people could not outlaw the Missal of 1962, even if they constitutions said that they specifically want to only use the Missal of Paul VI.

All of this said, we need to use our common sense here; no one is actually going to “force” the FSSP to say the OF. If the OF needs to be said, the FSSP would comply without raising a fuss, and the person asking would ask without a fuss. As a whole the FSSP are very reasonable people, so I don’t see why any of this would be an issue.

 

[floresco]

All of this said, we need to use our common sense here; no one is actually going to “force” the FSSP to say the OF. If the OF needs to be said, the FSSP would comply without raising a fuss, and the person asking would ask without a fuss. As a whole the FSSP are very reasonable people, so I don’t see why any of this would be an issue.

I agree. The sort of situation in which this would come up would be some sort of extreme emergency. In the normal course of events it is just not going to come up.
Bishops are going to respect that the FSSP is for priests who are committed to saying the EF. If they did not respect it, there would be recourse to higher authority.

 

[Melchior_1]

I agree. The sort of situation in which this would come up would be some sort of extreme emergency. In the normal course of events it is just not going to come up.
Bishops are going to respect that the FSSP is for priests who are committed to saying the EF. If they did not respect it, there would be recourse to higher authority.

Exactly. The kind of emergency where this would happen, I think which Form of Mass is being said would be the least of people’s concerns.