Youth and the Extraordinary Form

[Melchior_1]

There’s more to it than just reading from a Missal. It’s the entire GRIM which even if studied in the seminary, unless you’re practicing the them on a regular basis, you will forget the nuances over time. Even priests who say the OF on a regular basis still have to decide beforehand on options they will be using in their Masses. The EF is simple in many respects, you just place several ribbons in the missal and you’re all set.

And then you have issues with liturgical committees which you don’t have with the EF.

The OF does not need to be as complicated as folks make it out to be. The EF also does not need to be as complicated as people make it out to be. Both can be kept “simple”.

“Say the red, do the black”, right?

In the one example I gave (being asked to cover for a priest and requesting the OF be said) or in the event of an emergency, “liturgical committees” will not be an issue.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

No, that’s not what I am saying.

Floresco said that saying the OF violates the FSSP constitution. That is simply incorrect because canon law says that members of Societies of Apostolic Life are subject to the bishop in matters of public worship. The FSSP contitution does not say that the cannot say the OF because such a constitution is in violation of canon law. Such a constitution would never be approved by the Holy See.

The FSSP constitution does not prohibit FSSP priests from saying the OF. That is all I am saying.

-Tim-

Thanks - sorry for reading into what you said.

Although personally I’m still not getting why, 40 years on, an FSSP priest would be shocked or appalled at potentially saying the Ordinary Form once or twice a year.

I also don’t know what that has to do with how many youth attend which form of the Mass.

 

[floresco]

Although personally I’m still not getting why, 40 years on, an FSSP priest would be shocked or appalled at potentially saying the Ordinary Form once or twice a year.

There are people who have serious concerns about the OF even though they acknowledge it as a valid Catholic Mass. It is common for the men who are attracted to the FSSP to be like this. For example, if a priest thinks that the EF is a far superior expression of Catholic theology, he might feel like saying the OF is giving God second best. I can imagine myself being very distressed if I were in such a situation.

 

[ProVobis]

In the one example I gave (being asked to cover for a priest and requesting the OF be said) or in the event of an emergency, “liturgical committees” will not be an issue.

I think you misunderstood what I said. The last English Mass I attended had readers and the deacon who read the Gospel, gave the sermon, and seemed to be doing much of the work outside of the Eucharistic Prayer. Don’t get me wrong, it was reverent and valid. But for a priest to change roles like that, it would be quite a “switch in gears.”

 

[Moore11]

I think you misunderstood what I said. The last English Mass I attended had readers and the deacon who read the Gospel, gave the sermon, and seemed to be doing much of the work outside of the Eucharistic Prayer. Don’t get me wrong, it was reverent and valid. But for a priest to change roles like that, it would be quite a “switch in gears.”

Oh, you must go to my parish.
The second Sunday of the Month is “deacon” Sunday in every parish around my city.
The reason given is that priests need a break.

Our parish has 4 deacons soon to be 5. We have a pool every second Sunday, whoever guesses which Deacon will give the homily wins the house pot.

 

[Melchior_1]

Oh, you must go to my parish.
The second Sunday of the Month is “deacon” Sunday in every parish around my city.

If a Permanent Deacon is present, he should be doing the reading. And he is allowed to do a homily too.

Technically every Sunday is deacon Sunday. The only reason why priests can proclaim the Gospel is because they are still deacons after they become priests.

 

[MarkHilston25]

I am a 25 yes old. I give much credit for my full return to the faith to the Tridentine mass. I started by going to Novus Ordo and was turned off by the lack of beauty and tradition in a lot of parishes I was attending. The Holy Ghost was working miracles in my life with my desire for confession,adoration,and mass but that fire needed more fuel. Don’t get me wrong, I have much respect for both forms of mass and attend Saturday vigil and weekday mass at the Novus Ordo.I found out about the eastern Catholic church and that they used the same liturgy as the Orthodox. I never attended their liturgy and still have not but saw videos and I was attracted to the beauty and absolute glory it gives to God.I was too nervous to go but I wondered if the old Latin mass was still in use. I knew nothing about it but have always had attraction to Catholic tradition and thought it was cool we used Latin even when I was away from the Church. I got the courage to go to a local low mass and was hooked. A nice man approached me and introduced me to the traditional Catholic world. I felt more at home than ever. He took me to a high mass and I was hooked. Our community is a gift from God and the Holy Ghost is alive and well in our parish. My spiritual life sky rocketed and have felt more complete than ever. I now serve high mass on Sundays and sometimes low mass on wed.and thurs. It’s such an honoraria serve Our Lord in the mass. Our parish is absolutely gorgeous. We have many young folks in our community. God is good and thank you our Holy Father Pope Benedict VI for allowing catholics in good standing to so widely and acceptably worship in the mass that produced so many saints.

 

[MarkHilston25]

Sorry honor to serve mass not honoraria that was a typo.

 

[Cat]

Also, how many parishes did they have to merge to get 7000 in yours?

As far as I know, there were no parishes merged. Our parish started 50 years ago, when this side of the city was more sparsely populated and the street that the parish is on was the far eastern border of the city. Now the city has grown tremendously towards the northeast, and this is the area that the parish is located in.

At least someone admits that the OF is based on Luther’s “Mass”! Your above statement really isn’t presenting a flattering representation of the Novus Ordo.

No, the OF isn’t based on Luther’s “Mass.” That’s not what I meant to say, and if that’s how it came out, I apologize.

Luther’s worship service was based on the Latin Mass, which is all he knew.

I attended the Sacred Music Colloquium last year in Salt Lake City. There were some TLMs, there were some NO there. Both of the Masses were said spot on as they should be. The NO was still lacking and felt empty, even with the beautiful vestments, music, ad orientam, incense, etc…

The word that stands out in this paragraph is “felt.” According to Holy Mother Church, both Mass forms are good and acceptable. Which one we attend, IMO, is very likely based on our “feelings”. That’s OK. But it’s NOT OK to state that either form of the Mass is “lacking,” because according to Holy Mother Church, neither form of the Mass is “lacking.”

---

 

[Brendan]

Thanks…it is my understanding that there are parishes in Portland that do have the TLM so maybe he will say Mass there. Not sure what he will do with the cathederal…money being what it is.

That all said…I think it would be awhile…he has much bigger fish to fry when he gets here…

No real need to make architectural changes. The altar pictured there can certainly be used, just with the bishop facing ad orientem

If he brings out a few prie-dieu to use as an altar rail, he’s all set

 

[ProVobis]

The word that stands out in this paragraph is “felt.”

Shouldn’t it be whichever affords us spiritual benefits, whether it’s the parish here or parish there? I think many go by which priest (or deacon) they like best.

 

[clem456]

…
The word that stands out in this paragraph is “felt.” According to Holy Mother Church, both Mass forms are good and acceptable. Which one we attend, IMO, is very likely based on our “feelings”. That’s OK. But it’s NOT OK to state that either form of the Mass is “lacking,” because according to Holy Mother Church, neither form of the Mass is “lacking.”

---

If I could launch from that,
more than good and acceptable, the Church gives us the celebration of the one Sacrifice which is heaven on earth, in any language in any form.
What does it say about US (present company included), that we are not open to this at every Mass?

 

[Cat]

If I could launch from that,
more than good and acceptable, the Church gives us the celebration of the one Sacrifice which is heaven on earth, in any language in any form.
What does it say about US (present company included), that we are not open to this at every Mass?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.

I will admit that there are times when I attend Mass and I’m like the person in Jesus’ parable who allows the cares of this world to choke the Words of Life. I just don’t focus, at least until it is time for Holy Communion. And even then, sometimes, I’ll admit, with shame, that I stroll up to the altar and receive in an unfocused frame of mind, thinking more about my plans for the rest of the day than the Lord Jesus.

But I can honestly say that most of the time, I am very aware that I am in “heaven come down to earth” during the Mass. I am aware that I am present at the actual crucifixion of the Lord Jesus, and that I am receiving His Body and Blood, Truly Present.

I think that a lot of Catholics are like me–most of the time, they ARE aware of the One Sacrifice, but there are times when our human failings come into play and we forget where we are and Who we are with. I think we need to strive to be fully participating the Holy Mass no matter which form we are attending.

Is that what you’re talking about?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

No real need to make architectural changes. The altar pictured there can certainly be used, just with the bishop facing ad orientem

If he brings out a few prie-dieu to use as an altar rail, he’s all set

Maybe a stupid question…doesn’t the tabernacle have to be in sight? Right now it’s stuck off the the side…in a side room. You can’t even see it from the altar.

 

[clem456]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.

I will admit that there are times when I attend Mass and I’m like the person in Jesus’ parable who allows the cares of this world to choke the Words of Life. I just don’t focus, at least until it is time for Holy Communion. And even then, sometimes, I’ll admit, with shame, that I stroll up to the altar and receive in an unfocused frame of mind, thinking more about my plans for the rest of the day than the Lord Jesus.

But I can honestly say that most of the time, I am very aware that I am in “heaven come down to earth” during the Mass. I am aware that I am present at the actual crucifixion of the Lord Jesus, and that I am receiving His Body and Blood, Truly Present.

I think that a lot of Catholics are like me–most of the time, they ARE aware of the One Sacrifice, but there are times when our human failings come into play and we forget where we are and Who we are with. I think we need to strive to be fully participating the Holy Mass no matter which form we are attending.

Is that what you’re talking about?

What I’m trying to say (poorly) is that the discussion (not you personally, sorry) seems to revolve around what is the best or what is adequate or acceptable, when we are given the greatest gift at any Mass. The question for me is, how to I dispose myself to enter into that. I have a responsibility to move beyond my feelings and tastes.

I truly don’t get the whole discussion, it seems to put the Mass in such a minimalist perspective when any Mass should be an occasion for great joy.

 

[10thCrusader]

Thanks - sorry for reading into what you said.

Although personally I’m still not getting why, 40 years on, an FSSP priest would be shocked or appalled at potentially saying the Ordinary Form once or twice a year.

I also don’t know what that has to do with how many youth attend which form of the Mass.

I’m not sure why there is such a focus on some “thought experiment” where such an “emergency” would occur that a FSSP priest would be obliged to celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae (as it is properly termed in the VII documents).

It’s rather like that movie* Catholics*, which was made in 1973 during the time when the Church was replacing the Tridentine Latin Mass with the Novus Ordo Missae. The change to the new Mass was so controversial even within Secular society, they made a movie of it. Excerpts in the link below:
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4

I suppose the only “emergency” is that currently vocations in the seminaries with the Charism for the Tridentine Latin Mass, such as FSSP and Institute of Christ the King are expanding at a rate that outpaces the other seminaries. This may in the future constitute a shortage of priests that celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae. In that case there might be a parish that is demanding the Novus Ordo, and there is no priest who can celebrate it,

In that possible future, a priest from one of these orders might be requested by the Bishop to celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae. In this case the priest would probably celebrate the Mass ad Orientem (facing away from the people), with as many of the ordinaries in Latin as possible. They also might be treated with a very unaccustomed homily.

Given those kind of conditions, such a parish would probably opt for the more comfortable Communion Service with a lay Deacon. :clapping:

 

[floresco]

What I’m trying to say (poorly) is that the discussion (not you personally, sorry) seems to revolve around what is the best or what is adequate or acceptable, when we are given the greatest gift at any Mass. The question for me is, how to I dispose myself to enter into that. I have a responsibility to move beyond my feelings and tastes.

I truly don’t get the whole discussion, it seems to put the Mass in such a minimalist perspective when any Mass should be an occasion for great joy.

You are conflating different things. Yes, whenever we are at Mass, of whatever form, we should be grateful and devout and focused on God.

This does not mean that we cannot also consider Mass in a more theoretical way. Cardinal Ratzinger, before becoming Pope, did this in his book Spirit of the Liturgy and was quite critical of various aspects of the OF. Not everyone is trained or called to take an academic approach to liturgy, but people who do this are not doing anything wrong. They are not rejecting the gift of the Mass by making it an object of critical study.

 

[Melchior_1]

I’m not sure why there is such a focus on some “thought experiment” where such an “emergency” would occur that a FSSP priest would be obliged to celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae (as it is properly termed in the VII documents).

I don’t understand why peopel are focused on this thought experiment either. Then again, I also don’t understand why people are so insistent in saying “Novus ordo” when Pope Benedict XVI has clearly defined the names of both forms.

I suppose the only “emergency” is that currently vocations in the seminaries with the Charism for the Tridentine Latin Mass, such as FSSP and Institute of Christ the King are expanding at a rate that outpaces the other seminaries.

Some other seminaries this is the case. Others are quite full.

This may in the future constitute a shortage of priests that celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae. In that case there might be a parish that is demanding the Novus Ordo, and there is no priest who can celebrate it,

Again, there are seminaries doing quite well when it comes to vocations, whereas others are not. This has to do with culture and location.

They also might be treated with a very unaccustomed homily.

Given those kind of conditions, such a parish would probably opt for the more comfortable Communion Service with a lay Deacon. :clapping:

Both of these are gross generalizations, and shows true contempt for the majority of parishes in the world today.

 

[JustaServant]

In that possible future, a priest from one of these orders might be requested by the Bishop to celebrate the Novus Ordo Missae. In this case the priest would probably celebrate the Mass ad Orientem (facing away from the people), with as many of the ordinaries in Latin as possible. They also might be treated with a very unaccustomed homily.

Given those kind of conditions, such a parish would probably opt for the more comfortable Communion Service with a lay Deacon. :clapping:

Interesting conclusion. You have a pretty low opinion, it would seem, of parishes that celebrate the OF. You have anything to back that up? And please…no “clown Masses”.

 

[JustaServant]

At least someone admits that the OF is based on Luther’s “Mass”!

You have evidence to back up this statement?