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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
All I’ll say is try attending a Lutheran “Mass” and then a typical Novus Ordo. Anything more and I’d get an infraction.
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Melchior_1
Guest
I see, so it’s just your perception and opinion with no actual documentation, that you decide to say that the Mass our Pope celebrates is “Luther’s Mass”. Despite the fact is valid and licit. Interesting.All I’ll say is try attending a Lutheran “Mass” and then a typical Novus Ordo. Anything more and I’d get an infraction.
You’re not the only one who says this. I read the complaints about bans and infractions, about how mods are in “someone’s pocket”, about how “traditionalism” cannot be talked about here. The thing is, there’s one thing in common about all of this; it doesn’t matter who does the reporting, who does the rebuttals, it truly is only a matter of time before certain people find themselves banned not for the way they communicate, but for their actual belief structure.
Catholic Answers is an officially sanctioned Catholic Aposolate. The goal they have is to carry out their mission in a Catholic fashion. They do this in fidelity with their local bishop, and by following what the Church teachings. They remain obedient to the Pope. The catch is, they don’t tolerate when people claim to be a “traditional Catholic” and turn around and go against those things. They don’t like it when people disparage the Ordinary Form, Church Councils, the current Pope (which, if you justify what the SSPX and other radical traditionalists do/say and claim they are correct, you are disparaging the Pope) because that isn’t what Catholics should be doing, let alone Catholics who claim that their Catholicism is superior.
Very, very few people in this section want the EF to go away forever. By all accounts, most encourage the use of the EF even if it isn’t their thing. They want to see it happen because it benefits others.
Meanwhile, there are others who insist that their way must be correct, there is no room for diversity and authentic Catholic traditions. There’s no room for more than one Form of the Latin Rite. Things must be kept from a certain era. And to top it off, using Vatican II as a scapegoat when it’s incredibly obvious to anyone who does the least bit of contextual and historical studying that there was already liturgical reforms happening (Divine Office), the world was already in turmoil, and those who seek to ruin the Church would have found a way to break things, they would have found another way.
Instead of running to another message board where people can continue to enable themselves and convince themselves there is a grand conspiracy against them, perhaps instead people should focus on themselves and figure out “what am I saying and believing which is getting me banned from an authentic, officially approved aposolate”.
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10thCrusader
Guest
Wow! that is an amazing video! They took a lame-looking modern altar in a Catholic Church and transformed into a beautiful high altar in a matter of 20 minutes. We do something similar in Seattle at North American Martyrs Parish, but the FSSP in France really took it over the top!
Totally cool!
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floresco
Guest
One of the driving ideas behind the creation of the OF was the idea that the EF was lacking in participation by the laity. And it is a simple statement of fact that the OF is lacking in specific statements of the propitiatory nature of the Sacrifice of the Mass. While the Mass is not lacking in an ontological sense, that does not mean we cannot analyze it in terms of strengths and weaknesses.
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10thCrusader
Guest
Seriously? I always thought the Novus Ordo was based on Thomas Cranmer’s Godly Order. Maybe it’s a little of both.
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floresco
Guest
I am a trad but nobody would call me an extreme one. I am faithful to the Magisterium. I love the Pope. I strongly believe all orthodox Catholics are genuine Catholics regardless of the form of Mass they attend. I even agree with your analysis of Vatican II above. And yet I am limited in what opinions I can express here. And I experience feeling under attack for being a tradition Catholic on this forum. I can really sympathize with the frustration that some express.
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10thCrusader
Guest
These are not generalization, but years of attending the Novus Ordo Mass, and in many different localities, so you can’t call it cultural. It is not contempt. It is simply those that are strongly attached to the Novus Ordo, and might insist on having it, like it for the things in the Mass that an FSSP priest would probably not provide. Therefore, they would probably derive more benefit from a Communion service.
And I find no basis in your claim for “contempt for the majority of parishes,” as I think that if the Tridentine Latin Mass was the only one available to them, most Catholics would gladly attend. It would probably be only a small minority who would insist on the Novus Ordo… if we want to carry this thought experiment to its completion.
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JustaServant
Guest
I don’t think so dude. You made, you back it up, or are you backing down?All I’ll say is try attending a Lutheran “Mass” and then a typical Novus Ordo. Anything more and I’d get an infraction.
Explain for all of us how the OF is Luther’s mass.
Please…the floor is yours.
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JustaServant
Guest
How was the Altar lame?Wow! that is an amazing video! They took a lame-looking modern altar in a Catholic Church and transformed into a beautiful high altar in a matter of 20 minutes. We do something similar in Seattle at North American Martyrs Parish, but the FSSP in France really took it over the top!
Totally cool!
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Melchior_1
Guest
Meanwhile, others feel under attack as their authentic Catholic traditions or valid practices come under attack time and time again. In this very thread we have the Ordinary Form being called “Luther’s Mass”, how is that not an attack? The charismatic renewal and anything associated with it is always under attack around here. Vatican II? Under attack in almost every thread. Permanent deacons? Attacked. Canon Law or 1983? Also attacked.
There’s something to be said regarding rhetoric. If one can’t say anything nice about the Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite or Vatican II, that can have nothing to do being under attack and can have everything to do with the rhetoric itself.
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10thCrusader
Guest
Did you watch the video? It looks just like every altar you see in most modern Catholic Church buildings - three monoliths forming a bare table. Do they mass-produce these somewhere?
Look at it again
youtube.com/watch?v=oUNfbgRJOe8
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JustaServant
Guest
I don’t think so.
Over on the NCR side we have Protestants who are perfectly capable of talking about the differences between them and Catholics in a mature, intelligent, and charitable fashion.
Over here people can discuss disagreements with the text of Vatican 2, or how that text was interpreted in the 60s and 70s, without going to extremes. Over here people can discuss the the differences between the OF and the EF, again, without going to extremes.
It’s the EXTREMES that is the problem, not the matter itself. All it takes is intelligence and maturity…simple as that.
I’ve been on this forum for years. I prefer going to a TLM, if one was in my area. I dislike certain things I see local parishes do. And, it the past I have defended the SSPX and pointed out the historical extremes many parishes went, post-Vatican 2. I lived through it and saw my parents live through it.
But when it reaches the level of extremism…everything shuts down.
Maturity, intelligence, charity. Thats all CAF is asking for.
An outdated notion I know, but I guess we’re all dinosaurs here.
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Lormar
Guest
from a resident dinosaur.
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10thCrusader
Guest
In fairness, I have attended Lutheran services, and they are very similar to the Novus Ordo Mass, so I can see how people would think that. It would be tiresome to go into all the details, but go to a Lutheran service, and you will see the similarity.
I don’t think anyone is trying to pit the Novus Ordo against the Tridentine Latin Mass, except the person that instigated the whole FSSP celebrating a Novus Ordo Mass thought experiment, similar to what prompted the idea for this movie in 1973.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4
And having attended both forms of the Mass in different localities by different priests, and studied the wording of both very carefully, it would be impossible for me to deny that there are significant differences between the two forms. Whether these differences are theologically significant is not as clear.
For most Catholics, they will simply attend whatever form of the Mass is available to them. However when given the choice between the two, it is still my common observation that the Tridentine Latin Mass still seems to be the preferred Mass for younger people.
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Brendan
Guest
Again, technically no. In the EF, the priest is not permitted to leave the Sanctuary. But in a Cathedral, or basilica, the celebrating priest would often have a deacon, or a priest acting as a deacon ( there is no concelebration in the EF). So the deacon (or assisting priest) would remove and repose the blessed Sacrament.
I’m sure that Bishop Sample could arrange for a deacon or the rector to assist him at Mass in this way
BTW, here is how our parish offers the EF and OF off of the same altar. Your cathedral should work even better, as there is more room in front
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
I didn’t say that. After all, I’ve never declared that the Novus Ordo is invalid (I work for a church that only has the OF). Please don’t put words on my keyboard.
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floresco
Guest
You are right. Those things are attacked. And I am sorry. But I personally have always said that the OF is a valid Catholic Mass. I have never said anything bad about the charismatic renewal. (My personal experiences were quite positive.) I have said nothing worse about Vatican II than that it is ambiguous in places and has been misinterpreted. I have said nothing negative about permanent deacons or about the 1983 Canon Law.
I do not use that rhetoric which you object to.
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floresco
Guest
JustaServant;10311733 said:
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JustaServant
Guest
Says who? There’s nothing in CAF rules like that. People on here talk about why they prefer it all the time.
Maybe you should spent time with normal traditional Catholics here. Instead of the more extreme kind on another forum?
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