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floresco
Guest
That is disappointing. I wonder if that is because it is not there or because you do not perceive it. I will have to think about this.
BTW, I am a sister, not a brother.
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BTW, I am a sister, not a brother.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I would like to just say a few things.
If the intent in playing folksy guitar music at Mass is to attract young people, I understand the effort, but I do not think it works. This is because, usually, the music is folksy type music that was popular many years ago. Believe it or not, this is not popular music for the young generations.
Up to this point, I am not saying that we should use popular music, nor that we should not. I am saying that if the idea is that folksy 70s pop music attracts young people, the idea is wrong. Do some young people like this music? No doubt, just like some young people like 50s music. But the vast majority of young people do not listen to this music. Look at the pop charts. Folksy music is not what the young listen to for the most part, it is no longer popular music as such.
The popular music of the young nowadays is dance-ish type bubblegum pop music (for lack of a better term), rap, and there is a sizable minority that likes rock music, typically the heavier stuff.
And simply put, my opinion is that pop music fails at all levels in Mass essentially because it dates so easily. The musical styles that date the least, that are most timeless, succeed best at being considered sacred music.
PS: If anyone has read my posts before, you know that I do not advocate for a position that holds that sacropop music has no place in Catholicism. I would be personally willing to put in time, money and effort to organize prayer services and “concerts” with these types of music. I’d even support something like a concert of Christian rock music followed by a half hour of adoration accompanied by chants. These things do have a place, I recognize that. But I cannot support their use in liturgies for various reasons.
If the intent in playing folksy guitar music at Mass is to attract young people, I understand the effort, but I do not think it works. This is because, usually, the music is folksy type music that was popular many years ago. Believe it or not, this is not popular music for the young generations.
Up to this point, I am not saying that we should use popular music, nor that we should not. I am saying that if the idea is that folksy 70s pop music attracts young people, the idea is wrong. Do some young people like this music? No doubt, just like some young people like 50s music. But the vast majority of young people do not listen to this music. Look at the pop charts. Folksy music is not what the young listen to for the most part, it is no longer popular music as such.
The popular music of the young nowadays is dance-ish type bubblegum pop music (for lack of a better term), rap, and there is a sizable minority that likes rock music, typically the heavier stuff.
And simply put, my opinion is that pop music fails at all levels in Mass essentially because it dates so easily. The musical styles that date the least, that are most timeless, succeed best at being considered sacred music.
PS: If anyone has read my posts before, you know that I do not advocate for a position that holds that sacropop music has no place in Catholicism. I would be personally willing to put in time, money and effort to organize prayer services and “concerts” with these types of music. I’d even support something like a concert of Christian rock music followed by a half hour of adoration accompanied by chants. These things do have a place, I recognize that. But I cannot support their use in liturgies for various reasons.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Well if you have no other way to describe the beauty of the EF other then to put down the OF…it leads me to believe that it is not that great at all. Really if there were no OF…how would you describe why you like the EF?? If you have no words for that then maybe your love isn’t that great…or you are not great at communicating that.
Why is it so limiting to your freedom to ask you to describe why you like something or someone without putting others down? Isn’t that charity?
Assuming you are married…could you not describe your love for your husband without denigrating others? That is something you have not addressed?
If the EF is SO great (and I’m not saying its not for some) why can’t you not describe your love for it without denigrating the other perfectly valid forms of the Mass?
I don’t describe my love for the OF by putting down the EF…why is it so much to ask for the same charity?
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floresco
Guest
If it were simply a matter of loving the beauty of the EF (and I do love it) I could do as you would like. But my preference is based on ideas more than feelings. It is not really analogous to my love for my husband. I have spent years studying theology, to the point of getting a degree in it, so I am very tuned into theological issues. I have concerns about the OF on the level of its theology.
I am not doing it to be mean or uncharitable. I do not think any the less of my fellow Catholics who prefer the OF. (My own husband prefers it.) When I attend Mass in the OF, I do my best to worship God with all my heart and not to think about my theological concerns. But I would be dishonest if I pretended that I do not have them.
I am sorry if this comes across as putting down the OF or if it offends you. That is not my intent.
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paperwight66
Guest
floresco;10313721 said:
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floresco
Guest
The Pope, while still a Cardinal, wrote an entire book in which he described his concerns about the OF. I doubt he stopped having those concerns when he became Pope.
I accept the authority and teaching of the Pope on this. I accept his instructions in Summorum Pontificum. I do not in any way question the validity or licitness of the OF.
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Cat
Guest
Hold on,JustaServant. I am the one who originally started this train of thought.
What I said is that the worship service that Martin Luther created was derived from the Latin Mass, which is all he knew. He tweaked a few things, but basically, his worship service was the Latin Mass.
And so when people say that the OF Mass is like a Lutheran worship service, IMO, they are saying that the OF Mass is like the Latin Mass.
I do hope this makes sense, and I want to add that this is JMO. Remember that I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism (with a lot of exposure to Lutheranism through my piano teacher), so I have a different perspective than a cradle Catholic.
One thing that I have stated before on CAF is that in no way does the OF Mass resemble an evangelical Protestant worship service.
Evangelical Protestantism is the fastest-growing and largest group of non-Catholic Christians in the U.S. today, and many of the mainline denominations are ditching their liturgical worship services and incorporating the unstructured format of the Evangelical Protestant denominations in an attempt to try to recall some of their members who have fled to the Evangelical churches and megachurches.
I know that many Catholics have visited a Lutheran church and so they insist that OF Masses seem “Protestant.” But Lutheranism is declining rapidly in the U.S.
I think that if this current trend continues (which it will, because many of the Lutheran denonimations are, to their shame and disgrace, pro-choice and pro-gay-marriage, and openly encourage homosexual practices), and Protestantism in the U.S. becomes more and more “Evangelical”, then *in the very near future, no Catholic will be able to say that the OF Mass is “Protestant.” *
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Cat
Guest
Let’s get something understood here.
First of all, many times guitars are used because there is no pianist or organist available.
**Second, let’s be very clear–the guitar folk music is not being done to attract teenagers to church. It’s being done to attract boomers like me. **
Baby boomers are the largest population group in the United States. We grew up with guitar music, folk and rock music, and most of us like it very much. I agree that most teens do NOT like boomer music, but boomers do.
And many boomers grew up rebelling against “square” music, and even though we are Christians, there is still that little spark of dislike for “traditions” and “old-fashioned stuff”.
It’s embarrassing for us to admit it, but many of us still consider ourselves “the young generation.” Frankly, I think for a lot of boomers, childhood never happened because we were born into a world dominated by the Viet Nam war, LSD and other drugs, hippies, free love, rebellion against authority (“Don’t trust anyone over 30”), rejection of religion, rejection of traditional values and morals (“Do your own thing”), and constantly-changing styles of pop/rock music that attempted to express all of this angst.
We saw fellow students shot at Kent State. We lived through four assassinations of beloved leaders, and an attempted assassination of a controversial leader (Gov. George Wallace).
Our world teetered and tottered, and many of us didn’t live through our youth.
But many of us did, and we’re still trying to find our way back to something “real.”
True, the Mass music isn’t about our personal preferences. But it’s also true that Holy Mother Church does allow Mass music of different styles and instruments other than the pipe organ. So why not use music in the Mass that will appeal to various groups of people, including boomers?
And true, rebellion is the sin that felled Lucifer the angel. But in order to get people to a place where they will recognize and repent of their sin, we first have to get them to Mass, and if the boomer music helps to do that, then why not use it?
Our boomer folk/rock Mass on Sunday mornings is probably the most crowded Mass at our parish, and it’s full of boomers. The music is provided by the “folk choir,” and accompanied by guitars and various hand-held percussion instruments. I personally do not like this kind of music, but obviously many others do.
I hope this post kind of explains boomer thinking and attitudes to those of you who are young.
**We Boomers need Jesus, too! And I see nothing wrong and EVERYTHING good about providing Mass music that will draw the very large population of boomers, many of whom have good jobs (the last generation to be able to get good jobs) and therefore have money to give, back to God. **
Also, many boomers have children and grandchildren, and sadly, many of the boomer children/grandchildren have never attended any church at all. At the school my children grew up in, very few children and teens attended any church. For many, their first church experience happened when they were in high school and one of their classmates was killed in a car accident, and the students attended his funeral at a church.
So it’s possible that bringing the boomers back to church will also result in their children coming to God. So those guitars are doing double duty!
I do agree that it’s quite unfortunate if this kind of “boomer” music is the only music used at parishes. I think it is good when parishes can provide different styles of music at their various Masses, so that everyone will find something that appeals to their heart and soul.
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Cat
Guest
I apologize to the moderators for posting three in a row. But I am responding to three different posts.
floresco, consider this. Perhaps it’s not appropriate for you to express your concerns about the theology of the Mass forms in a public forum.
There are many topics that my husband and I discussed in private that we would never have discussed in front of our children because it simply wasn’t appropriate.
There are topics that I will discuss with my work associates that are totally inappropriate to discuss with others; .e.g, various pathologies of the human digestive system. While we can chatter away about these topics, others will be sickened by the very thought of such things.
I personally think the appropriate place for you to discuss theology of the Mass forms is with your fellow seminarians, with clergy, with religious, and with professors and teachers of religion.
But bringing up the subject on a public forum means that weaker Christians or those who are investigating Christianity are reading your comments, and are possibly stumbling over what you are saying.
Your comments might cause them to doubt what they are being taught in their parishes, and this doubt might lead to a decreasing passion for and even an attrition from their faith and Holy Mother Church and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Finally, we don’t know who you are. I like to believe that fellow members of CAF are exactly who they say they are. But I really don’t know. You probably are a very faithful and devout young person who truly wants to advance the Catholic faith and who lives a life of charity and good works. But you might also be someone who is not at all interested in bringing others home to the Catholic Church, but instead, merely wishes to sow discord, and lives a private life of debauchery.
The problem with an online communication system is that we can’t match your talk with your walk, because we can’t observe your walk. So when you say there are theology issues, we don’t know who exactly you are and whether or not we should pay attention to you.
I hope these comments are helpful to you and others.
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
We should ask the Orthodox church how come after all these years they never felt the need to tinker with the divine liturgy to attract youth or to be “relevent” in the modern world.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Yet they have had the same issue with declining attendance.
Does that not point towards something happening in society?
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floresco
Guest
I suspect you are right about this. There is actually a Vatican document addressing theologians which makes similar points. As I said, I do not wish to seem that I am complaining. I accept the right of the moderators to make and enforce policies such as this. I have the greatest respect for them.I apologize to the moderators for posting three in a row. But I am responding to three different posts.
floresco, consider this. Perhaps it’s not appropriate for you to express your concerns about the theology of the Mass forms in a public forum.
There are many topics that my husband and I discussed in private that we would never have discussed in front of our children because it simply wasn’t appropriate.
There are topics that I will discuss with my work associates that are totally inappropriate to discuss with others; .e.g, various pathologies of the human digestive system. While we can chatter away about these topics, others will be sickened by the very thought of such things.
I personally think the appropriate place for you to discuss theology of the Mass forms is with your fellow seminarians, with clergy, with religious, and with professors and teachers of religion.
But bringing up the subject on a public forum means that weaker Christians or those who are investigating Christianity are reading your comments, and are possibly stumbling over what you are saying.
Your comments might cause them to doubt what they are being taught in their parishes, and this doubt might lead to a decreasing passion for and even an attrition from their faith and Holy Mother Church and the Lord Jesus Christ. .
You would have a somewhat better idea of who I am if you read my profile. I am an old grandmother, not a young seminarian.
But I take your point. You only have my word that I have an M. Div. or even that I am a Catholic at all.
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Eric_Olsen
Guest
exactly.
I still think the guitar masses, bongos, liturgical dance is all a sham to
try to bring youth to mass when all they have to do is look at a EF mass.
Some may say a relevant OF does the same thing, but the problem is the OF is
“watered down” in comparison to the EF. Evne the 1965 missal was a far cry better than
the OF of today.
I still think the guitar masses, bongos, liturgical dance is all a sham to
try to bring youth to mass when all they have to do is look at a EF mass.
Some may say a relevant OF does the same thing, but the problem is the OF is
“watered down” in comparison to the EF. Evne the 1965 missal was a far cry better than
the OF of today.
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10thCrusader
Guest
Cat, you have really hit the nail on the head here. This supports my whole observation about the youth and the Tridentine Latin Mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4
Once they become young adults they are looking with something with more depth, and certainly not something driven by nostalgia for the “flower power” days. This is why when they become young adults they are gravitating to the Tridentine Latin Mass, especially the young adult men.
As a side note, if young Catholic women are looking to get married, you might want to go to the Tridentine Latin Mass in your area. There’s always a large crowd of single, young adult men.
Note: So what’s wrong with Gregorian chant? I have sung in a schola without organ for a Solemn High Latin Mass before. It was a little country church where there wasn’t anyone who could play the organ.
As I mentioned previously, the Novus Ordo Mass was formulated in the 1960’s to make it more relevant to the times, so it did appeal to the “boomer” generation and got them back into the Church (for the most part). Although there were a significant number of people who left the Church because of the changes to the Mass (and they were significant). Like I said, even secular society made a movie about the controversy.
youtube.com/watch?v=3i_Pm1iPkR4
OK, here’s where I must disagree. It’s true you can get them to church while they’re in High School or home from College, Christmas, Easter, etc. but even you admit this sort of music doesn’t really appeal to them. It’s old fogey music in their eyes. You think you’re hanging on to your youth, but it’s the boomers that have become the “squares,” the Establishment. I was the “wave” generation, and for us there was nothing more embarrassing than an aging hippie.
Once they become young adults they are looking with something with more depth, and certainly not something driven by nostalgia for the “flower power” days. This is why when they become young adults they are gravitating to the Tridentine Latin Mass, especially the young adult men.
As a side note, if young Catholic women are looking to get married, you might want to go to the Tridentine Latin Mass in your area. There’s always a large crowd of single, young adult men.
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floresco
Guest
This reminds of a comment made by Pope Benedict XVI in the letter to bishops which accompanied Summorum Pontificum:
** Immediately after the Second Vatican Council it was presumed that requests for the use of the 1962 Missal would be limited to the older generation which had grown up with it, but in the meantime it has clearly been demonstrated that young persons too have discovered this liturgical form, felt its attraction and found in it a form of encounter with the Mystery of the Most Holy Eucharist, particularly suited to them. Thus the need has arisen for a clearer juridical regulation which had not been foreseen at the time of the 1988 Motu Proprio. **
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Melchior_1
Guest
Yet I see several young adults in my parish. Actually, all of the Companions of the Cross parishes have a lot of young adults. And if they don’t, it’s because most of them joined organizations that do missions so they are outside of the city.
Same deal with charismatic parishes. Makes you wonder if there’s something to be said about diverse spiritualities, eh?As a side note, if young Catholic women are looking to get married, you might want to go to the Tridentine Latin Mass in your area. There’s always a large crowd of single, young adult men.
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JustaServant
Guest
Well I can tell you why it doesn’t work. Because it was quite popular in the 1970s, and by the 1980s I left the CC for almost two decades. Of course I couldn’t see the reason why back then because I was young and cocky.
Here’s what I think: human beings are intrinsically lazy. It’s far easier to warm your behind in a pew and listen to music or a preacher than be required to do things during the worship service (kneeling, standing, crossing, bowing, reciting prayer or a creed, actually getting up for communion instead of waiting for it to come to you.).
At what passes for a mega-church here in our hamlet, they attract scores of young people. They have a “million dollar sound system” lotsa music and concerts…oh an a preacher.
Kids are attracted to that kind of “excitement”.
They won’t accept a hybrid of liturgy and non-liturgical. The two simply do not mix. Take my word for it, I tried it as a Baptist pastor.
When one gets older, one wants something deeper than a “milliion dollar sound system”.
I believe youth can be attacted to the TLM because it is so other than what they experience at the local “Jesus Concert Hall”.
Dare I say, it could be that they are encountering genunine worship.
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JustaServant
Guest
Exactly, and this is why I asked him for documentation.Hold on,JustaServant. I am the one who originally started this train of thought.
What I said is that the worship service that Martin Luther created was derived from the Latin Mass, which is all he knew. He tweaked a few things, but basically, his worship service was the Latin Mass.
And so when people say that the OF Mass is like a Lutheran worship service, IMO, they are saying that the OF Mass is like the Latin Mass.
The Episcopal liturgy is also based on the TLM.
Having studied the differences between the EF and the OF, it should be obvious to anyone that certain parts were removed. Not parts of the Consecration, but Offertory Prayers and such. The new version of the OF that came out last year is actually even far more closer to the Latin Mass than many realize.
Part of the problem is having an historical understanding of the formation of liturgy, both from Catholic and Protestant churches. If one understands that, they would not make rash statements like “the OF is based on Luther’s Mass”. And a “feeling” one has when one attends a Lutheran service just doesn’t cut it. I asked for documentation, and never got it because none exists.
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10thCrusader
Guest
I wonder… do you think His Holiness would get banned on CAF for such a radical statement
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JustaServant
Guest
What in the statement would get him banned? And cite the CAF rule that would do so.I wonder… do you think His Holiness would get banned on CAF for such a radical statement
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