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Esrb99
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Well, even card. Ratzinger held similar opinions regarding the OF that Jayne has. At least she’s in good company… ; )
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floresco
Guest
It very well may seem that way. I have a problem with coming across as arrogant. However, I do not think that. The Pope, as well as being the Vicar of Christ to whom I owe obedience, is also a brilliant theologian. He is far smarter than me and far more educated.
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Indyann
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Pope Benedict XVI is not of that opinion. If you read the letter to the Bishops regarding the SP, you will see that he does not have a negative opinion of the Ordinary Form.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi_en.html
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Walking_Home
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Indyann:
Well, even card. Ratzinger held similar opinions regarding the OF that Jayne has. At least she’s in good company… ; )
I don’t know what opinions are spoken off – but Pope Benedict XVI said there is no contradiction between the two forms of the Roman Missal. And that the rejecting the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness.
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Esrb99
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No one said that they were rejecting the new missal. What was said was that the Vatican allows and at times is even supportive of theological opinions and studies regarding ALL forms of the Roman Rite.
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floresco
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There is no contradiction between the two forms of the Roman Missal. However they emphasize different points of doctrine. Something that is explicit in one, could be implicit in the other.
For the record, I do not reject either form of the Mass and recognize the value and holiness of both.
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Annabelle_Marie
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Why is this so difficult for people?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Walking_Home:
No one said that they were rejecting the new missal. What was said was that the Vatican allows and at times is even supportive of theological opinions and studies regarding ALL forms of the Roman Rite.
If there are any studies to be done – it falls to the appropriate congregations in Rome. What should be doing – is to recognize the value and holiness of the OF – and not go around turning up our nose at it.
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floresco
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I hope that I have not given the impression that I turn up my nose at the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I know that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist and I am very grateful for the privilege of attending.
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10thCrusader
Guest
Oh no! you just presented evidence of my previous opinion: I said none of the young people who go to the guitar masses are fooled into thinking they are at a rock concert, but apparently you were.
But your qualifying remarks do support my theory: that young people are looking for a deeper spiritual meaning at Mass. They don’t want some superficial entertainment; they want to worship God.
I hope you get a chance to attend a Tridentine Latin Mass in the future. I think you will find a breath of fresh air. Contrary to what some have said about the character of the people who attend it, most of them are very nice. They are often more quiet and introspective, and tend to be less gregarious and effusive, so I can see why some people would think they are unfriendly. But as you say it’s not about us, it’s about God.
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ProVobis
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At least not since he himself as Pope showed how it’s supposed to be done.
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YoungTradCath
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Right? His Masses have been absolutely magnificent lately, to the point where I couldn’t care less what Form they’re in.At least not since he himself as Pope showed how it’s supposed to be done.
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severus68
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I have no issue with the EF and would have liked to attend one. However, with the manner in which some on CAF (not referring to anyone in particular) have posted about how it is more reverent than the OF, their description of how everyone should behave at an EF mass, how everyone there has large families etc ,has made very reluctant to attend one. Again, no issue with the EF, just with the attitudes of some attending it. I would add that the Church says we should be open to life, not that we should have as many children as possible. It is made to seem that having a large family is equivalent to great holiness. I am from a large family but we are not holier than others for that reason.
If more of the youth join the Church, that is great. It does not matter which mass they attend. This should not be a competition.
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Walking_Home
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maryjk:
I have no issue with the EF and would have liked to attend one. However, with the manner in which some on CAF (not referring to anyone in particular) have posted about how it is more reverent than the OF, their description of how everyone should behave at an EF mass, how everyone there has large families etc ,has made very reluctant to attend one. Again, no issue with the EF, just with the attitudes of some attending it. I would add that the Church says we should be open to life, not that we should have as many children as possible. It is made to seem that having a large family is equivalent to great holiness. I am from a large family but we are not holier than others for that reason.
If more of the youth join the Church, that is great. It does not matter which mass they attend. This should not be a competition.
Agreed.
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DarkLight
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My original point…even if you are in an area, like I am, where the EF seems to be “old ladies in veils”, that doesn’t mean you have no young people interested. Sometimes it does mean that the parish could be a bit friendlier to young people, especially if it’s the only one in an area. But the fact that we don’t on balance go there doesn’t always indicate that we aren’t interested!
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thewanderer
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Nobody was saying that the OF is a bad thing or that they are rejecting it. Some people have reasons why they prefer the EF because of the theological concepts which are contained explicitly within it. Saying that they prefer such theological concepts to be in the mass explicitly or even that they think that the EF is a greater expression of our faith because said theological concepts are explicit is in no way putting down the OF. Look, I personally prefer to attend the OF, and am more than willing to defend the OF whenever I see somebody attacking it or showing a lack of respect towards it, but floresco has been very careful to clarify exactly what she means so that it is very clear that she means no disrespesct towards the OF. I also do sometimes overreact to people like floresco because I associate certain phrases and thoughts with people who actually do put down the OF, this is all part of the reason why it is so difficult for those who prefer the different forms to have a civil conversation about this topic because there **are **people who put down the OF its easy to associate all those who prefer the EF with them, and then those who prefer the EF but don’t put down the OF get super defensive because they are constantly having people incorrectly assume all sorts of things about their opinions. Its a viscous cycle and we all need to change if we are ever going to be able to break out of it.
Oh, and, I’m sorry, but the idea that only the appropriate congregation in rome is allowed to look at or think about the theological aspects of the different forms of the Mass is simply absurd. We are not banned from learning or thinking about some aspect of the Mass just because we do not belong to a congregation in rome.
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Walking_Home
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Nobody was saying that the OF is a bad thing or that they are rejecting it. Some people have reasons why they prefer the EF because of the theological concepts which are contained explicitly within it. Saying that they prefer such theological concepts to be in the mass explicitly or even that they think that the EF is a greater expression of our faith because said theological concepts are explicit is in no way putting down the OF. Look, I personally prefer to attend the OF, and am more than willing to defend the OF whenever I see somebody attacking it or showing a lack of respect towards it, but floresco has been very careful to clarify exactly what she means so that it is very clear that she means no disrespesct towards the OF. I also do sometimes overreact to people like floresco because I associate certain phrases and thoughts with people who actually do put down the OF, this is all part of the reason why it is so difficult for those who prefer the different forms to have a civil conversation about this topic because there **are **people who put down the OF its easy to associate all those who prefer the EF with them, and then those who prefer the EF but don’t put down the OF get super defensive because they are constantly having people incorrectly assume all sorts of things about their opinions. Its a viscous cycle and we all need to change if we are ever going to be able to break out of it.
Oh, and, I’m sorry, but the idea that only the appropriate congregation in rome is allowed to look at or think about the theological aspects of the different forms of the Mass is simply absurd. We are not banned from learning or thinking about some aspect of the Mass just because we do not belong to a congregation in rome.
Yea – but where have “theological discussions” led. Depending on the “group” – they may give the OF validity but go down hill from there —and then there are those who say the OF is not Catholic/invalid. All this “theological discussion” also serves to poison the well-- leading some people away from attending the OF.
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thewanderer
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So because some people have gone astray we should ban everyone from learning or thinking about it?
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Indyann
Guest
Brendan is defining obedience as Aquinas has defined it.
We must conform our will to the one who has authority. That person is the Vicar of Christ on earth, It is called 'thinking with the mind of the Church". When your thinking differs, it is you who must change your thinking, if you want to be obedient.
When people get on a forum, to rant, grumble, about everything they think is wrong with the Mass, it accomplishes absolutely nothing.
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10thCrusader
Guest
I think you may be attributing more intent to people’s words than are actually there. If you pull out select, unqualified words from people’s postings, you might be able to twist a conclusion that people don’t like people with small families or single parents at the EF. However, there were qualifications made in the same posting, and in follow-on posts that expressed entirely the opposite view that you seem to have ignored.
Nobody would ever look at someone with a small family at our EF parish in a bad way.Nor would they express any disapproval of a single parent or really anyone. Are you basing your view from actual experience at the EF Mass or stories from others?
However, I have noticed that those who attend the EF Mass has a tendency to be more quiet and introverted, perhaps even a little shy. Maybe you are interpreting reserve for disapproval.
As far as the EF being more reverent than the OF, that is people’s opinion. They have expressed their opinion and given reasons why they have that opinion. If you find the OF is more reverent than the EF that is fine too, and you are welcome to give your reasons.
And who said it was a competition? Just because the youth seem to prefer the EF Mass, (and we find more of them there every Sunday) doesn’t mean that the OF is not as good. It just doesn’t appeal to them. In most cases I think it is the way the OF is celebrated, not the actual form of the OF. Don’t you think it’s worth looking at why? We’re talking about keeping the young people in the Church and what is the best way to appeal to them.
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