Youth that feel we don't need marriage certificates in Marriage?

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The Church will not marry you without a civil license unless civil authorities have forbidden one to you, nor will the Church marry two people when one is civilly married, even if the marriage is not deemed valid by the Church.

“Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.” If you marry in the Church, you marry under all laws that pertain to you, and take the consequences. When the laws become so unjust that this is no longer true, your bishop will let you know. That situation does not exist in the US.
They do it in other countries. And, I am pretty sure we could find a priest somewhere in the vast United States who would perform it.

And that situation does exist. Whether my local bishop acknowledges it or not.

Finally–everyone knows that the church is on an honor system anyway. When I walk into a new parish with my wife and kids in tow and identify her as my wife, no one checks our papers. They can do that if they wish. We won’t stop them.
 
I’m of the belief that the laws have reached the point of absurdity. I know 3 lawyers very well. They have seen things. Nasty things.

I guess you could always get married overseas. Also, you will find the odd Priest who recognizes the absurdity of what legal ‘marriage’ has become who will help you out.

I’m likely to get trolled (and the Priests likely to get bashed) for saying these things, but I stand by them and the brave Priests who recognize the mess legal ‘marriage’ has become.

There are ways around it, rest assured. Everything except for the tax deduction and social security (which are nothing if both spouses work anyway) can be obtained with other contracts, so have no fear about them losing the benefits of legal marriage.

You can give your Sacramental spouse:
-Your health benefits at work (this happened in the last half decade when gay people complained they couldn’t give their partner benefits since they couldn’t be married)
-Visiting rights and medical rights
-Pension rights
-Property rights
-etc…
 
I’m of the belief that the laws have reached the point of absurdity. I know 3 lawyers very well. They have seen things. Nasty things.

I guess you could always get married overseas. Also, you will find the odd Priest who recognizes the absurdity of what legal ‘marriage’ has become who will help you out.

I’m likely to get trolled (and the Priests likely to get bashed) for saying these things, but I stand by them and the brave Priests who recognize the mess legal ‘marriage’ has become.

There are ways around it, rest assured. Everything except for the tax deduction and social security (which are nothing if both spouses work anyway) can be obtained with other contracts, so have no fear about them losing the benefits of legal marriage.

You can give your Sacramental spouse:
-Your health benefits at work (this happened in the last half decade when gay people complained they couldn’t give their partner benefits since they couldn’t be married)
-Visiting rights and medical rights
-Pension rights
-Property rights
-etc…
Exactly. You nailed it right on.

Rather than argue with the onslaught of shrieking that is likely to come next in this thread. Here are my thoughts on the matter of whether or not civil marriage has reached a level of injustice here yet.

courtshippledge.com/2014/05/the-story-of-jim/
 
Sadly Jim’s story is normal and not the worst I’ve heard. It hasn’t even happened yet to someone in my direct family or me as none of us are married, but we all know people who it did happen too 😦

I just come at this issue as a matter of fairness. Both sides should be equal in the eyes of the law.

Rejected Wives know full well they have the power to destroy their ex husbands criminally and fiscally 😦

It is sad what legal ‘marriage’ has become.
 
This is a sad topic for me. Having lived without the “certificate” I hope that my children are not doomed to the same fate. My husband, SerbCath, & I are now in a sacramental marriage & believe in to the point of seriously considering a legal divorce. Yes. Divorce. Strictly in the legal sense of it. Sort of a not so polite way to invite the govt. to leave our bedroom.

We are encouraging our children to enter into a sacramental marriage without the certificate. If this means in the next 5 years for our oldest that he may have to leave the country to be married so-be-it. It frightens me to think that my sons will be subject to the shrew mentality that exists now. If you are not happy take your husband down to bare bones. Leave him with nothing.

Marriage takes work & women (myself included) have some heavy lifting to do.
 
I’m seeing a lot of people on these boards who have never cohabited. Let me break this down for you:

Not having a marriage certificate means that you are at a serious legal and financial risk should any number of about 10,000 things happen to you.

Cohabiting couples are still subject to domestic violence laws, can still take each other to court for half of the communal property (anything acquired while living together), and if one partner is out of the workforce and financially dependent on the other, alimony can still be awarded (colloquially ‘palimony’). And of course, child custody and support laws are the same whether the couple was married or not.

So…not being married leaves you vulnerable to a bunch of different bad things, and still leaves you with all of the legal responsibilities that a marriage does.
 
I’m seeing a lot of people on these boards who have never cohabited. Let me break this down for you:

Not having a marriage certificate means that you are at a serious legal and financial risk should any number of about 10,000 things happen to you.

Cohabiting couples are still subject to domestic violence laws, can still take each other to court for half of the communal property (anything acquired while living together), and if one partner is out of the workforce and financially dependent on the other, alimony can still be awarded (colloquially ‘palimony’). And of course, child custody and support laws are the same whether the couple was married or not.

So…not being married leaves you vulnerable to a bunch of different bad things, and still leaves you with all of the legal responsibilities that a marriage does.
And people wonder why marriage rates are dropping at an alarming rate. You made a better case against legal marriage (or even living together in a sacramental marriage) than any youth in a barber shop could.

People should all just live alone and just meet up for the occasional hook up to avoid all that risk.
 
And people wonder why marriage rates are dropping at an alarming rate. You made a better case against legal marriage (or even living together in a sacramental marriage) than any youth in a barber shop could.

People should all just live alone and just meet up for the occasional hook up to avoid all that risk.
Cool. You can if you want, no skin off my nose.

But I’ll be leaving work in about an hour to go home to my warm apartment where my husband is working on dinner and my dog will curl up at my feet.
 
This post actually got me to join this group because of what I want to share I think is very important to consider. I have been reading and watching this site for the past two weeks learning something about different denominations.

Ok so the reason why I am posting.
So I know this person on facebook that makes an interesting point to think about who also believes a marriage license for the State or gov is not necessary but actually think it is wrong for Christians to even get one. Why?? Well he believes it is a way of asking for the state or gov permission to have marriage when It is actually from God and should be between the couple and God infront of the congregation With a paper of cert from the church and/or the rev to performed. Here is how he puts it…

JUNE IS WEDDING MONTH – Will the State or God be the third party in your marriage?? Will you unwittingly be giving the State ownership of your future children with just one piece of paper?

You’ve probably heard about the Michigan law that says the nurse gets 5 minutes alone with your adolescent child. Maybe you’ve seen that liberal “professor” stumping for state ownership of the children. What you probably have not heard is that the state ownership begins when you take out a MARRIAGE LICENSE.

Before 1933, marriage was a third party arrangement between husband, wife, and God. Now, it is the state / man / woman. Authority to license presumes ownership. Young folks, if I were you, I would say vows before God and family and record the blessed union in your family Bible.

Here is some homework for you love birds: “Marriage by Biblical Covenant
Not State License” truthinliving.org/Marriage_Covenant.php

FIVE REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT OBTAIN A MARRIAGE LICENSE

by Rev. Matthew Trewhella
  1. The definition of a “license” demands that we not obtain one to marry.
Black’s Law Dictionary defines “license” as, “The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal.” We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry without the State’s permission? More importantly, why should we need the State’s permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen. 2:18-24)? We should not need the State’s permission to marry nor should we grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State says “no”? You must understand that the authority to license implies the power to prohibit. A license by definition “confers a right” to do something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given right.
  1. When you marry with a marriage license, you grant the State jurisdiction over your marriage.
When you marry with a marriage license, your marriage is a creature of the State. It is a corporation of the State! Therefore, they have jurisdiction over your marriage including the fruit of your marriage. What is the fruit of your marriage? Your children and every piece of property you own. There is plenty of case law in American jurisprudence which declares this to be true.

In 1993, parents were upset here in Wisconsin because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, “your marriage license and their birth certificates.” Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, your state marriage license has far-reaching implications.
  1. When you marry with a marriage license, you place yourself under a body of law which is immoral.
By obtaining a marriage license, you place yourself under the jurisdiction of Family Court which is governed by unbiblical and immoral laws. Under these laws, you can divorce for any reason. Often, the courts side with the spouse who is in rebellion to God, and castigates the spouse who remains faithful by ordering him or her not to speak about the Bible or other matters of faith when present with the children.

As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given its unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of treason for me to do so.
 
Continued
  1. The marriage license invades and removes God-given parental authority.
When you read the Bible, you see that God intended for children to have their father’s blessing regarding whom they married. Daughters were to be given in marriage by their fathers (Dt. 22:16; Ex. 22:17; I Cor. 7:38). We have a vestige of this in our culture today in that the father takes his daughter to the front of the altar and the minister asks, “Who gives this woman to be married to this man?”

Historically, there was no requirement to obtain a marriage license in colonial America. When you read the laws of the colonies and then the states, you see only two requirements for marriage. First, you had to obtain your parents permission to marry, and second, you had to post public notice of the marriage 5-15 days before the ceremony.

Notice you had to obtain your parents permission. Back then you saw godly government displayed in that the State recognized the parents authority by demanding that the parents permission be obtained. Today, the all-encompassing ungodly State demands that their permission be obtained to marry.

By issuing marriage licenses, the State is saying, “You don’t need your parents permission, you need our permission.” If parents are opposed to their child’s marrying a certain person and refuse to give their permission, the child can do an end run around the parents authority by obtaining the State’s permission, and marry anyway. This is an invasion and removal of God-given parental authority by the State.
  1. When you marry with a marriage license, you are like a polygamist.
From the State’s point of view, when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, but you are also marrying the State.

The most blatant declaration of this fact that I have ever found is a brochure entitled “With This Ring I Thee Wed.” It is found in county courthouses across Ohio where people go to obtain their marriage licenses. It is published by the Ohio State Bar Association. The opening paragraph under the subtitle “Marriage Vows” states, “Actually, when you repeat your marriage vows you enter into a legal contract. There are three parties to that contract. 1.You; 2. Your husband or wife, as the case may be; and 3. the State of Ohio.”

See, the State and the lawyers know that when you marry with a marriage license, you are not just marrying your spouse, you are marrying the State! You are like a polygamist! You are not just making a vow to your spouse, but you are making a vow to the State and your spouse. You are also giving undue jurisdiction to the State.

Read more at mercyseat.net/marriagelicense.html
 
Civil marriage is not just about convincing each other that you have a real commitment. It is about legally enforcing your relationship’s status on everyone else and claiming both the tangible and intangible benefits extended to the married for yourselves. g the need for external validation and the word, “marriage,” but in doing so they are shunning all the other benefits extended to the married.
(Bolding Mine)

Bingo.

I lived with my husband for several years before we got married. We did so for many reasons, but a large one was the impact that marriage would have on my college financial aid. But when he was diagnosed with cancer, we sat down with an attorney and painstakingly went through each and every legal benefit we could think of to make sure that we had each other protected. And you know what, as good as it was, we still weren’t as protected as we would have been with a marriage.

But we had all of the same responsibilities under the law. Joint property, domestic violence laws (which are fortunately the same regardless of the victim-offender relationship), family court, palimony, if we had had children child support, etc were all the same. We just weren’t able to protect each other as well as we would have hoped.

But at the end of the day, people who need to be convinced that marriage is a good thing do not need to be getting married.
 
(Bolding Mine)

Bingo.

I lived with my husband for several years before we got married. We did so for many reasons, but a large one was the impact that marriage would have on my college financial aid. But when he was diagnosed with cancer, we sat down with an attorney and painstakingly went through each and every legal benefit we could think of to make sure that we had each other protected. And you know what, as good as it was, we still weren’t as protected as we would have been with a marriage.

But we had all of the same responsibilities under the law. Joint property, domestic violence laws (which are fortunately the same regardless of the victim-offender relationship), family court, palimony, if we had had children child support, etc were all the same. We just weren’t able to protect each other as well as we would have hoped.

But at the end of the day, people who need to be convinced that marriage is a good thing do not need to be getting married.
Don’t have to convince me that marriage is a good thing. Just the way it is currently constituted. All those things you mentioned–custody, alimony, child support are extremely stacked against men currently. This is objectively, verifiably true. Going to in to court when things go south is suicide for men in this country.
 
:eek:

:mad:

My husband is a hardworking, successful CPA who is gainfully employed. I can assure you, we have plenty of sex regardless of who’s doing the cooking on any given night. But tonight he is making dinner because he gets off early on Thursdays, and I’m working late at my internship all this week to help get 2 new interns and a paralegal settled in to a very swamped firm. Oh, and he loves to cook, and he’s great it. Explain to Gordon Ramsey how cooking is for dainty little women.
 
"I’m seeing a lot of people on these boards who have never cohabited. Let me break this down for you:

Not having a marriage certificate means that you are at a serious legal and financial risk should any number of about 10,000 things happen to you.

Cohabiting couples are still subject to domestic violence laws, can still take each other to court for half of the communal property (anything acquired while living together), and if one partner is out of the workforce and financially dependent on the other, alimony can still be awarded (colloquially ‘palimony’). And of course, child custody and support laws are the same whether the couple was married or not.

So…not being married leaves you vulnerable to a bunch of different bad things, and still leaves you with all of the legal responsibilities that a marriage does."

BueEyedLady, you are right on some but wrong on others

-Alimony cannot be awarded. Palimony agreements must be set up in advance. A recent case in California put Palimony to bed and no palimony suit has succeeded in recent history.

-Communal property laws also do not apply. Whoever has the house in their name gets it. The other has nothing. legalmatch.com/law-library/article/cohabitation-and-property-rights.html Sorry I don’t want to steal all the expensive time of my lawers so I just picked a quick link instead of the case-law.

-Domestic Abuse laws still apply, yes, but the real problem in America is that when the wife gets mad they pick the husband to the bone since he has no remedy. Domestic abuse is used as a hammer for the wife to get money (she is already mad so why not use it?). Removal of Alimony/communal property through sacramental only marriage eliminates the ability to financially murder your husband.
 
:eek:

:mad:

My husband is a hardworking, successful CPA who is gainfully employed. I can assure you, we have plenty of sex regardless of who’s doing the cooking on any given night. But tonight he is making dinner because he gets off early on Thursdays, and I’m working late at my internship all this week to help get 2 new interns and a paralegal settled in to a very swamped firm. Oh, and he loves to cook, and he’s great it. Explain to Gordon Ramsey how cooking is for dainty little women.
I’m guessing Gordon Ramsey is some kind of TV chef who is a caricature of a tough guy.

I’m sure you husband is a stud.
 
This post actually got me to join this group because of what I want to share I think is very important to consider…Here is how he puts it…

JUNE IS WEDDING MONTH – Will the State or God be the third party in your marriage?? Will you unwittingly be giving the State ownership of your future children with just one piece of paper?

You’ve probably heard about the Michigan law that says the nurse gets 5 minutes alone with your adolescent child. Maybe you’ve seen that liberal “professor” stumping for state ownership of the children. What you probably have not heard is that the state ownership begins when you take out a MARRIAGE LICENSE.

Before 1933, marriage was a third party arrangement between husband, wife, and God. Now, it is the state / man / woman. Authority to license presumes ownership. Young folks, if I were you, I would say vows before God and family and record the blessed union in your family Bible.

Here is some homework for you love birds: “Marriage by Biblical Covenant
Not State License” truthinliving.org/Marriage_Covenant.php

FIVE REASONS WHY CHRISTIANS SHOULD NOT OBTAIN A MARRIAGE LICENSE

by Rev. Matthew Trewhella
  1. The definition of a “license” demands that we not obtain one to marry.
Black’s Law Dictionary defines “license” as, “The permission by competent authority to do an act which without such permission, would be illegal.” We need to ask ourselves- why should it be illegal to marry without the State’s permission? More importantly, why should we need the State’s permission to participate in something which God instituted (Gen. 2:18-24)? We should not need the State’s permission to marry nor should we grovel before state officials to seek it. What if you apply and the State says “no”? You must understand that the authority to license implies the power to prohibit. A license by definition “confers a right” to do something. The State cannot grant the right to marry. It is a God-given right.

Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. Rom. 13:1-8 (since this refers to paying taxes, it is obviously talking about civil authority.
  1. When you marry with a marriage license, you grant the State jurisdiction over your marriage.
When you marry with a marriage license, your marriage is a creature of the State. It is a corporation of the State! Therefore, they have jurisdiction over your marriage including the fruit of your marriage. What is the fruit of your marriage? Your children and every piece of property you own. There is plenty of case law in American jurisprudence which declares this to be true.

In 1993, parents were upset here in Wisconsin because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, “your marriage license and their birth certificates.” Judicially, and in increasing fashion, practically, your state marriage license has far-reaching implications.

This is absurd. Government seizure of parental rights applies to the married and the unmarried alike, and perhaps more to the unmarried than to the married, depending on jurisdiction.
  1. When you marry with a marriage license, you place yourself under a body of law which is immoral.
By obtaining a marriage license, you place yourself under the jurisdiction of Family Court which is governed by unbiblical and immoral laws. Under these laws, you can divorce for any reason. Often, the courts side with the spouse who is in rebellion to God, and castigates the spouse who remains faithful by ordering him or her not to speak about the Bible or other matters of faith when present with the children.

As a minister, I cannot in good conscience perform a marriage which would place people under this immoral body of laws. I also cannot marry someone with a marriage license because to do so I have to act as an agent of the State! I would have to sign the marriage license, and I would have to mail it into the State. Given the State’s demand to usurp the place of God and family regarding marriage, and given its unbiblical, immoral laws to govern marriage, it would be an act of treason for me to do so.

Again: according to Romans, we may not defy civil authority out of fear that it might impose unjust punishments on us.
 
BueEyedLady, you are right on some but wrong on others

-Alimony cannot be awarded. Palimony agreements must be set up in advance. A recent case in California put Palimony to bed and no palimony suit has succeeded in recent history. Uhhhh…no. The Marvin case only holds for California, and like the rest of family law, palimony is a patchwork of laws between states. In New Jersey, for example, the State Supreme Court ruled that a couple doesn’t even have to be living together for one to sue the other for partner support, that a promise of support was enough for a suit.

-Communal property laws also do not apply. Whoever has the house in their name gets it. The other has nothing. legalmatch.com/law-library/article/cohabitation-and-property-rights.html Sorry I don’t want to steal all the expensive time of my lawers so I just picked a quick link instead of the case-law. I’m not talking about the house. I’m talking about the stuff in the house. And yes, you can take your ex to civil court for that. And, as my older brother found out the hard way, if your partner has consistently helped pay your house payment, that will be considered when dividing up the property that was acquired.

-Domestic Abuse laws still apply, yes, but the real problem in America is that when the wife gets mad they pick the husband to the bone since he has no remedy. Domestic abuse is used as a hammer for the wife to get money (she is already mad so why not use it?). Removal of Alimony/communal property through sacramental only marriage eliminates the ability to financially murder your husband.

You’re very misinformed on divorce and domestic abuse laws and procedures. However, even if you weren’t (and you are), why would you want to sacrementally marry someone that you didn’t trust with your material goods? How could that marriage even be valid when that kind of lack of trust and unwillingness to be completely open with every aspect of your life is so apparent?
When couples break up, in most states, the courts look at a pattern of behavior. If they lived as though they were married and over the course of time shared their material wealth, then the courts will divide up the property that way.
 
My cousin didn’t believe in marriage either. She was a stay at home mom for about 8 years raising their three children then worked part time jobs for the next 12 years. Her boyfriend bought the house they lived in for 22 years. When their last kid turned 18 he gave her a 30 day eviction notice. She was left with nothing and now works full time trying to survive. I guess marriage is for fools? :eek:
 
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