Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[TheAtheist]

No You are missing my point. My Point is I know when I am being honest and when I am not being honest. I can fool you! I can fool the world! But I cannot ever fool God. I know this, God knows this.

But to the point, are you seeing why I am saying we cannot mix the 2. Thats all I am asking you. But you see when Zen Med is an impossiblility for Christian Prayer on if no other reason then no having the Presence of Christ. Thats all I am asking?

Its like the whole CORE of Zen Med is that you do not meditate on something. I am just asking do you see why I am saying this does not mix? Don’t get me wrong I am not asking if you agree with what I am saying. But can you agree with what I am saying I see from a Christian point of view? That it can’t mix.

Depends on what you mean by “mixing the 2” because it also depends on how you interpret what Zen meditative experiences are.

From the most stalwart traditional end of the spectrum - ie: Classic Zen as interpreted by the heirs of Bodhidharma and transmitted into the wider stream of Chinese Buddhism and into the Rinzai and Soto sects of Buddhism in Japan.

The answer would probably be “no” - because you have to sign onto the idea of certain postulates that conflict with Christianity.

However - i’m referring to a kind of strict dare i say “orthodox” version of Zen - itself a kind of mental construct because Zen practitioners are notorious for “running over”/violating the traditional Mahayana perspective - they are the folks at the edge.

In being “at the edge” and at times being strongly anti-doctrinal - the Amercranized/Westernized versions of Zen that Melkite made reference to as part of this New Age-y business “dumped” the traditional metaphyics and some very central notions of Buddhism (like Karma/Reincarnation). That version of Zen can seem to adapt to just about any spirituality ~ case in point about the Jesuit Priest who is also a Zen Roshi that i linked to above.

Ultimately however, what we are talking about is a practice, not the description of a practice. Because the varying interpretations say that the other interpretation is essentially wrong.

From the Classic Zen prospective - the “watered down Zennists” are not going to get anywhere in their aim at Enlightenment. The dare i say “protestant” Zennists rebuke the Classic Zen folk on the basis of myopic understanding of the process.

Standing firmly on the Scientific platform that i am - we can only say what we’ve seen on brain scans and via empirical evidence. And there’s a lot to be said about the benefits to accured on a cognitive/physiological level. Obviously however, we’re inclined to throw out both the Classic Zen and Watered Down Zen view as being wrong…until new evidence can be provided.

So who do you believe? Whchever view you buy into colors your view of Zen as a either a religious practice, an unaligned spiritual practice, or cognitive self-help.

 

[TheAtheist]

Also please be more direct on ZEN Meditation. Explain exactly what the process is and what it is to achieve. (the short and sweet process please)

Which Zen are you referring to? See above.

As for the process - zazen as seen most of the time is simply arranging yourself comfortably in a sitting position and counting your breathes.

1…2…3… etc. If your mind should wander into another thought outside of this process like thinking about buying groceries, the hardness of the floor, if the room is cold or hot…etc…

then you start over from the beginning at 1…2…3…

The counting technique is probably as basic as you can get - it also happens to appear in Hinduism and Daoism as well.

All of this preparatory work, a building up of concentration (and yes we’ve confirmed that it does work) for further meditative techniques in some traditions.

Do you perhaps see why people would consider this practice non-religious? Its not like the Nembutsu (Namu Amida Butsu) - where a person is actually calling on Amida Buddha to have mercy on them and save their karmicaly tainted being.

The practice can be deployed in a religious or non religious mode. I’ll make reference to what Mary and Cecilianus drew an analogy to.

A doctor tells you for health concerns you should fast tomorrow - so you do.

vs.

Its Good Friday, let’s make a sacrifice by Fasting.

In both cases physiologically you are doing the same thing. Fasting is fasting. However your intentionality is different.

A person sits down to meditate via Zen (or another Buddhist practice that looks similar to Zazen)…

1.) One may do it in order to Achieve Enlightenment (Classic Buddhist)

2.) One may do it to to feel spiritual (there are our new agers)

3.) One may do it increase their concentration (everyone from hardened Materialists to people in original religions).

 

[Cecilianus]

I agree that as you stated zen is used to relax and like exercise there is no need for the Church to teach it because it is not needed for salvation. Now here is a big question for you. The Church teaches against it, do you not agree with me there. We are advised to stay away from it because it can harm us also. What are your thoughts on that?

I would like to see where “the Church teaches against it”. Remember that the private opinions of the Holy Father are simply his private opinions - Popes throughout history have expressed private opinions that contradicted each other or were material heresy. That’s why the Catholic dogma of papal infallibility was defined so narrowly as it was. Even things that the Pope teaches formally, say in a papal bull, are not infallible until it’s clear that it expresses the constant teaching of the Church. (Dancing has been condemned as sinful dozens of times. Kissing outside of marriage is a mortal sin according to a bull of Pope Alexander VII. “Official” teaching on a number of diverse things such as the role of the theology of St. Thomas Aquinas, the moment of transubstantiation in the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches, and religious freedom have changed.)

DO you agree that Zen can turn us away from Christ?

I’m certainly cognizant of the possibility and even of the real danger, but anything can turn us away from Christ.

Another question if you can see where this is possible, do you feel to continue in this practice if there is 1/10 of a possiblility it could turn you away from Christ that is could be considered a sin?

I would not give a universal judgment that such a practice would be a sin. It would be up to one’s private conscience to know whether such a practice is spiritually harmful enough to be considered sinful. I know I do plenty of things for which there is more than a tenth of a possibility of it leading me away from Christ. I drink alcohol, for example. Lots of people who drink alcohol become alcoholics. It’s a risk I take. (I am not, in fact, an alcoholic.) Life is full of risks. I pursue the good, even when risks are involved.

 

[Cecilianus]

I can agree with you on what you have said. And while I agree that there is some good in Buddhism do not get me wrong. I think you can agree that the One God is relevant in Christian faith and prayer.

Maybe it is my misunderstanding of this whole Post. I was under the impression this was not to say anthing wrong with Christian Prayer but to incorporate Zen with Christian prayer itself.

Now if again I am wrong please correct me. Zen is the practice of meditation wihout image or Concept. Is this not the meditation that is taught.

IF this is not the comcept of Zen meditation could you tell me what is? Because is would be my misunderstanding all the way.

But if I am correct and as I keep hearing no one is saying practice zen but meditation. Then why is Zen Meditation the title of this thread.

Zen Meditation is the absolute without image or concept.

This is again where I personally am seeing it impossible to fuse Christian Meditation with Zen Meditation.

As far as meditation itlsef with the CC that has always been taught. BY Jesus himself. He always taught us when we fast we fast in silence, when we pray we go into our room alone. Meditation is one on one in theory no matter how you want to see it.

Because even if you deny the existance of Christ you are reaching out for something. Even if it is your inner self it is still a type of relationship thatis being sought do you not agree? You are looking for something that is lacking. If not there would be no need for it.

Because myself I know my inner self, I do not need to take quiet time to seek my inner truth as they say. My inner truth is always revealed on the outer truth that I live. That would be the result of my soul at the moment. We call it our conscience. We know when it is clear and when it is not. I know at this moment I am being true and honest with you in my response. And I also know in my heart when I am being mean or spiteful.

And I also know that we all have inner truth in us, rather we choose to accept it or not is our call.

Christian prayer in the Eastern Churches (the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the corresponding Eastern and Oriental Churches in union with the Pope of Rome including the one I belong to) does not employ images and concepts the way the spirituality of the Roman Catholic Church does - in fact, we are strictly forbidden to use our imagination, which is considered a distraction in prayer. This spiritual discipline did not happen to be borrowed from Zen - it comes from the Desert Fathers of the Egyptian Thebaid in the 4th century - but it is similar enough to lay to rest your worry that “meditation without image or concept” is incompatible with Christian prayer. We have been doing it for 1600 years.

 

[Cecilianus]

Got another quetion how could anything be enjoyed but also for the good of us if God is not the center though.

SIn is quite enjoyable also do you not agree. Until you have so much fun you let it destroy your soul.

It’s perfectly possible to enjoy a completely secular pursuit without committing sin. I enjoy physics. Physics is also good for me; it is good for my mind. But God is not the “center” of physics any more than He is of Zen.

I do everything for the glory of God, and offered up to Him. But this does not mean that my physics is theological speculation, or that I would be meditating on God if I were doing Zen.

 

[Cecilianus]

Rinnie, I believe your dragging your conceptual lens of Christianity over Buddhism - your taking concepts and ideas that grew up within a specific time period/culture and deciding to universalize them with a warrant for such an action.

Case in point - the whole crux of your religion is about a relationship with something that is wholely other correct? If i follow the Orthodox’s Via negativa viewpoint - God is unlike anything else - the exception in a world of rules.

Correct. The via negativa is also essential to the Roman Catholic viewpoint, although less emphasis is placed on it because they like to try to harmonize the via negativa and via affirmativa in a “via eminentiae”, which is what the East calls the sacramental view of nature.

But in some versions of Buddhism,** there is nothing there to have a relationship with**. There isn’t even a “search for an inner self” because there is “no-Self” - the fundamental doctrine of every Buddhist school. There is no enduring unchangeless entity. There is no true “inner self” to go hunt for.

Careful here. You’re making a metaphysical claim. The Buddha forbad his disciples from wasting their time in futile metaphysical speculation. Buddhism as I understand it (and as a non-Buddhist and someone who does not practice Zen or any other form of meditation) only interprets experience, not metaphysics.

There is however, a flow of perceptions, a continual stream of thought that constantly changes. The metaphor often given to be my Buddhists is a “mindstream” - which resonates with Heraclitus’ dictum about “You cannot enter the same river twice.” This thing isn’t a soul as conceived by those coming from the Western tradition - its not an unchangeable Platonic Ideal. Its a thing in constant flux, ergo there is no “true self” within that flux.

Pushing out the Amida, Tendai, an Nichiren Buddhists for a second (since they are in fact seeking a relationship with an Other) - the point isn’t about having a relationship - its about clearing cognitive blockages.

If i may create an awkward dichotomy to illustrate this:

1.) In the Abrahamic Religions and some variations of Hinduism - You are a Thing.

2.) In Buddhism, Daoism, and some variations of Hinduism - You aren’t a Thing, you are a Process.

Careful here too. In Heraklitos there is still a Logos, though his writings are too fragmentary to say with certainty what he meant by it. It seems that the Logos for Heraklitos was the unity of opposites. Taoism also has a “Tao” like Heraklitos’ Logos. The relationship between you and the Tao is rather subtle and the subject of much dispute; I do not know enough Chinese (though I did take a class in it as a child) to judge. Eugene Rose wrote a master’s thesis at UC under Gi-Ming Shien entitled “Emptiness and Fullness in the Lao-Tzu” where he argued for a more naturalistic, realist interpretation of the “emptiness” of things than the reality-is-illusion interpretation. (He wrote this before he converted to Christianity; he later became an Orthodox monk under the name Seraphim, so if you look for the PDF of his thesis you’ll probably find it as some Orthodox webpage.)

The Tao certainly is not a “process”. Saying that would limit it and “name” it. “A Way that can be named is not The Way”, as that glorious book says at the beginning. I suspect that a lot of writings following your interpretation have been influenced a bit by Western process theology. The problem simply is that you’re imposing Western terms on Eastern religions - and thereby bringing Western meaning into it.

In other words, you’re trying to ask a Western (European/Abrahamic) question about an Eastern/Oriental religion.

Hmm. Its your POV vs. Augustine and the Eastern Church Fathers (on one of the few occasions they actually agree ).

Take heart Rinnie - i’ve heard other Christians say the same thing too.

They all just happen to be Protestant.

 

[Cecilianus]

No You are missing my point. My Point is I know when I am being honest and when I am not being honest. I can fool you! I can fool the world! But I cannot ever fool God. I know this, God knows this.

But to the point, are you seeing why I am saying we cannot mix the 2. Thats all I am asking you. But you see when Zen Med is an impossiblility for Christian Prayer on if no other reason then no having the Presence of Christ. Thats all I am asking?

Its like the whole CORE of Zen Med is that you do not meditate on something. I am just asking do you see why I am saying this does not mix? Don’t get me wrong I am not asking if you agree with what I am saying. But can you agree with what I am saying I see from a Christian point of view? That it can’t mix.

Zen can be a preamble to prayer (or something natural that helps make prayer better, or prepare you better for it), but not prayer itself. (And prayer really isn’t the purpose of Zen - you’re the only one here who’s been thinking that’s what we’ve been talking about.) Just like reason is defined by dogma to be a preamble to the Faith, even though by definition it requires no supernatural illumination or divine grace.

 

[TheAtheist]

Christian prayer in the Eastern Churches (the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the corresponding Eastern and Oriental Churches in union with the Pope of Rome including the one I belong to) does not employ images and concepts the way the spirituality of the Roman Catholic Church does - in fact, we are strictly forbidden to use our imagination, which is considered a distraction in prayer. This spiritual discipline did not happen to be borrowed from Zen - it comes from the Desert Fathers of the Egyptian Thebaid in the 4th century - but it is similar enough to lay to rest your worry that “meditation without image or concept” is incompatible with Christian prayer. We have been doing it for 1600 years.

Interesting.

Hmmm, i wonder if there is a correlation regarding conversion between Tibetan Buddhism and Roman Catholicism and what you just stated.

I remember reading a sociological report about religious conversion - Many Roman Catholics when converting to an eastern religion end up in the ranks of Tibetan Buddhism - a religion which also uses a high number of symbols and tantric visualizations of deities. It also happens to have a gigantic commentarial tradition and a high degree of institutional organization.

The same was also true for Tibetan Buddhists coming over to Christianity - Catholicism was the choice.

Perhaps at the end of the day, people go with what they are familiar with?

 

[TheAtheist]

Careful here. You’re making a metaphysical claim. The Buddha forbad his disciples from wasting their time in futile metaphysical speculation. Buddhism as I understand it (and as a non-Buddhist and someone who does not practice Zen or any other form of meditation) only interprets experience, not metaphysics.

Well i did demand formality.

Rossum has a strong command of the Pali Cannon, so i’ll defer to him on this one. But from what i understand, the Buddha did in fact deny the Self - or perhaps to be more precise, a specific Conception of the Self.

The Tao certainly is not a “process”.

A hehehehe… That also depends… :sigh:

The Dao described in DaoDeJing? (Take a number on this one… the philosophers and historians line up around the block) Interpreted by WangBi’s Xuanxue school? Or post-Buddhist translational history, ie: Sung Neo-Confucian syncretism?

In other words, you’re trying to ask a Western (European/Abrahamic) question about an Eastern/Oriental religion.

Funny that’s what i was trying to convince Rinnie of.

Addenum:

I suspect that a lot of writings following your interpretation have been influenced a bit by Western process theology.

Oh that’s odd, i was under the impression that it went the other way around since Alfred N. Whitehead.

In point of disclosure - much of what i’ve lifted has been in fact from the materials being pushed out by those within the field who also happen to be Buddhists attempting to try and explain things to their Materialist colleagues.

Are they borrowing language then? Off the top of my head, a lot of them have made incredibly strong links between classic Buddhist philosophy and Wittgenstein. Very explicit infact. Other than some oblique references to Augustine, i haven’t seen anything else quite explicit.

 

[rinnie]

Well here is the way I understand it to be.

The Vatican cautioned zen and yoga and degenerate into a cult of the body that debases Christian Prayer.

The Pope’s letter stated that Love of God the SOLE OBJECT of Christianity. Contemplation is a reality which cannot be mastered by ANY method or Technique.

Many People who have taught this technique in the back of their minds cannot help but wonder WHY? What is it that you Catholic’s are searching for that you cannot find in your prayer. Does that bother you as a Catholic? Well it should. The teaches are really laughing at you.

From what I see if you are a strong Catholic this is not needed. We do not have to sit in a certain position to talk to our God. Or get in a certain breathing pattern.

No when we pray we are not searching. We are asking God for Grace to live our daily lives. We are asking God to help us to be able to put away our fears and our anxiety’s with his Grace that is given to us by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

There is nothing else that we could possibly need. No Meditation or theory is needed to talk to our Lord or pray with him. He has everything we need just waiting for us to come and join him. His table is always set. His heart is always open, and His Mercy is always more then what we will ever deserve.

True inner peace comes from Prayer not from other practices that claim to help you. They cannot. Only Christ can. And the only safe and true way is the way he taught us.

You do not need this. It will not do nothing for you.

We as Catholics need to put more time into our Traditions and some old Fashion Christian Prayer. What happend to kneeling before God at the Church and praying the Rosary with others.

If you want peace and enlightment in your life you head for the Light. The Roman Catholic Church. God will leave the light on for you.

I understand this is not Christian Prayer. ANd I am saying you are right it is not. This could not even compare to Christian Prayer. And my question is why would you waste you time to even consider it.

When that time could be spend with the Holy Spirit. What can this do for you that the Holy Spirit cannot?

What can the Holy Spirit do that Zen cannot. Thats easy! EVERYTHING!!

Keep your life simple, keep your life real. keep it Christ Centered. That will give you everything you need and more Grace then you will ever know possible.

Why waste your time on something that is empty in theory when you can spend your time in something that is proven in the power or God.

Jesus taught us to pray. If Jesus wanted us to sit in a certain position, breath a certain way, etc he would have told us. He revealed everything to us in the RCC. This is not recommended in the RCC and the Pope has the keys to the kingdom.

Who are we true to, our Pope and our Church? Then I think its time we better take this time we have on our hands and get our souls right with God. As A Roman Catholic I will do just that.

When someone can show me where this can benefit me over prayer then we can talk. BUt beings that they cannot, have tired like heck I can see. But have given me nothing. I will have to go with the word of the man who Holds the keys to the Kingdom. I pray that those who have become so empty in their own Catholic faith wake up and start being a good example for our Lord. Instead of looking outside for other ways.

If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Pray more. Get closer to God. Take the time to devote your time to him for a change. You will be surprised what you are missing. And if you are not doing it right. The Holy Spirit hook you up. That you can count on.

 

[TheAtheist]

Jesus taught us to pray. If Jesus wanted us to sit in a certain position, breath a certain way, etc he would have told us.** He revealed everything to us in the RCC.** This is not recommended in the RCC and the Pope has the keys to the kingdom.

Now how to square this away with what your own Pope Says…

God has no intention of recounting everything to us. Revelation was not there t give us a complete knowledge of God’s ideas and of all space (meaning the universe in the context of this paragraph), with no gaps. One of the Wisdom books, often quoted by the Fathers, says about this in one place: God has given us the world to argue about. Scientific knowledge is, so to speak, ]the adventure he has left to us ourselves.

• Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict the XVI), God and the World

He didn’t reveal everything to you in the RCC. At base minimum, your God revealed his existence and his love. That’s it.

The understanding of how the Universe operates, the question as to whether Life exists someplace else and if it were created by your God, the “mechanics” of the spiritual world - in nowhere does Jesus of Nazareth lay out the whole creation and your own self-functioning as an organism.

He did not reveal to us the power of splitting the atom - we had to figure that one out. He did not reveal to us the intricacies of genetic recombination and how human beings develop and grow - again that was good old fashion humanity.

And he did not reveal the inner workings of the human mind…which is what eastern meditative practices have been providing data for… which may also your question about:

And my question is why would you waste you time to even consider it.

Christian meditation cannot be correlated to eastern practices because they are in fact different things. Why they even share the same translated word is probably more an accident of history than anything else.

You have agreed to this.

Alright, but Eastern meditation is quite useful for the purposes of neurobiology and cognitive science to explore the workings of the mind - as i have stated before it is proving things about the mind that we as scientists did not think was even possible.

There is no 3rd person method to explore the workings of the inner mind (a fact as a materialist i regret sincerely), the only road available to us is by introspection.

We can’t “go to God” and ask this question or expect to find the answer within Catholic theology or the Bible - because that was not the purpose of these things.

Exploring the mind was the purpose of these techniques however, furthermore they are paying out dividends in terms of some basic improvements to cognitive function.

I guess my confusion is that your “answer” to all of this is the equivalent of saying that all the answers lay with Jesus.

That type of opinion however is in direct contrast with not only the earliest members of your Church but the current pontiff.

Jesus didn’t teach everything - he left room for mankind to discover. And beyond an ethical component, he never demarcated a stopping point about what mankind shouldn’t look into.

Its with that stark contrast of opinion that I have to say - Rinnie please take no offense, but having had many Catholic and Christian friends in general - you sound alot more like a Evangelical Protestant than you do a Catholic.

In their mindset - Jesus is the answer to every question. even the trivial little ones like Drivers Education, Taxes, etc.

Orthodox and Catholic thinkers seem more inclined to say Jesus is the answer to the question, the important one. The rest can be handled by the powers of human intelligence, deemed a gift from God. God doesn’t come down from heaven to teach mankind how to harness electricity, create the Internet, or tell us what exists in outer space.

And he doesn’t come down to tell you how the human mind works…

That’s something people need to figure out…and we just may have a method that can complement our most sophisticated tools and imaging techniques.

 

[Cecilianus]

Now how to square this away with what your own Pope Says…

• Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict the XVI), God and the World

He didn’t reveal everything to you in the RCC. At base minimum, your God revealed his existence and his love. That’s it.

Catholic teaching is that God revealed everything necessary for salvation. Nothing more, nothing less. He created us with minds so we could use them to figure the rest out on our own.

The understanding of how the Universe operates, the question as to whether Life exists someplace else and if it were created by your God, the “mechanics” of the spiritual world - in nowhere does Jesus of Nazareth lay out the whole creation and your own self-functioning as an organism.

He did not reveal to us the power of splitting the atom - we had to figure that one out. He did not reveal to us the intricacies of genetic recombination and how human beings develop and grow - again that was good old fashion humanity.

And he did not reveal the inner workings of the human mind…which is what eastern meditative practices have been providing data for… which may also your question about:

Christian meditation cannot be correlated to eastern practices because they are in fact different things. Why they even share the same translated word is probably more an accident of history than anything else.

You have agreed to this.

Alright, but Eastern meditation is quite useful for the purposes of neurobiology and cognitive science to explore the workings of the mind - as i have stated before it is proving things about the mind that we as scientists did not think was even possible.

There is no 3rd person method to explore the workings of the inner mind (a fact as a materialist i regret sincerely), the only road available to us is by introspection.

We can’t “go to God” and ask this question or expect to find the answer within Catholic theology or the Bible - because that was not the purpose of these things.

Exploring the mind was the purpose of these techniques however, furthermore they are paying out dividends in terms of some basic improvements to cognitive function.

I guess my confusion is that your “answer” to all of this is the equivalent of saying that all the answers lay with Jesus.

That type of opinion however is in direct contrast with not only the earliest members of your Church but the current pontiff.

Jesus didn’t teach everything - he left room for mankind to discover. And beyond an ethical component, he never demarcated a stopping point about what mankind shouldn’t look into.

Its with that stark contrast of opinion that I have to say - Rinnie please take no offense, but having had many Catholic and Christian friends in general - you sound alot more like a Evangelical Protestant than you do a Catholic.

In their mindset - Jesus is the answer to every question. even the trivial little ones like Drivers Education, Taxes, etc.

Orthodox and Catholic thinkers seem more inclined to say Jesus is the answer to the question, the important one. The rest can be handled by the powers of human intelligence, deemed a gift from God. God doesn’t come down from heaven to teach mankind how to harness electricity, create the Internet, or tell us what exists in outer space.

And he doesn’t come down to tell you how the human mind works…

That’s something people need to figure out…and we just may have a method that can complement our most sophisticated tools and imaging techniques.

Strongly agree with everything here, as usual.

 

[rinnie]

Now how to square this away with what your own Pope Says…

• Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict the XVI), God and the World

He didn’t reveal everything to you in the RCC. At base minimum, your God revealed his existence and his love. That’s it.

The understanding of how the Universe operates, the question as to whether Life exists someplace else and if it were created by your God, the “mechanics” of the spiritual world - in nowhere does Jesus of Nazareth lay out the whole creation and your own self-functioning as an organism.

He did not reveal to us the power of splitting the atom - we had to figure that one out. He did not reveal to us the intricacies of genetic recombination and how human beings develop and grow - again that was good old fashion humanity.

And he did not reveal the inner workings of the human mind…which is what eastern meditative practices have been providing data for… which may also your question about:

Christian meditation cannot be correlated to eastern practices because they are in fact different things. Why they even share the same translated word is probably more an accident of history than anything else.

You have agreed to this.

Alright, but Eastern meditation is quite useful for the purposes of neurobiology and cognitive science to explore the workings of the mind - as i have stated before it is proving things about the mind that we as scientists did not think was even possible.

There is no 3rd person method to explore the workings of the inner mind (a fact as a materialist i regret sincerely), the only road available to us is by introspection.

We can’t “go to God” and ask this question or expect to find the answer within Catholic theology or the Bible - because that was not the purpose of these things.

Exploring the mind was the purpose of these techniques however, furthermore they are paying out dividends in terms of some basic improvements to cognitive function.

I guess my confusion is that your “answer” to all of this is the equivalent of saying that all the answers lay with Jesus.

That type of opinion however is in direct contrast with not only the earliest members of your Church but the current pontiff.

Jesus didn’t teach everything - he left room for mankind to discover. And beyond an ethical component, he never demarcated a stopping point about what mankind shouldn’t look into.

Its with that stark contrast of opinion that I have to say - Rinnie please take no offense, but having had many Catholic and Christian friends in general - you sound alot more like a Evangelical Protestant than you do a Catholic.

In their mindset - Jesus is the answer to every question. even the trivial little ones like Drivers Education, Taxes, etc.

.

What is it about this that you seem to be so defensive about. All that I said is that it is not advised by our Pope and to stick to Christian Prayer. That is my take on it. Why does that upset you so much.

I said anything that we need to know is given to us by the grace of God. You disagree with this, So, I don’t. So you call me names. Oh well.

God gave us a mind to learn and understand everything. Where am I disagreeing with Medical Science.

I never said a word about us not needing study’s and science etc.

When I said everything we need is revealed to us in the RCC I was talking about on a personal level for goodness sakes. And as far as studying the human mind we a individuals are not capable to do these studys on our own. But that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

And where am I disagreeing with you on Zen meditation have to do with me disagreeing with science. I was again speaking on Zen and on a personal level for goodness sakes.

And if you want to be blunt yes there is much out there to be discovered even in Science. But it will not be revealed to us until God is ready to reveal it to us.

Much in unknown and much has been discovered. But God is still at the center of everything. He was who created Man and gave Man the mind and the drive to discover things. But there is much out there that man has discovered and can never explain.

How do you explain that. How do you explain a Miracle? You can’t. Science Can’t. But God can.

But this is not about God it is about Zen, so lets not make this something it is not. And the Pope advises against the practice of Zen. Thats what we are talking about. I said Christian prayer is enough to reach the results that you are seeking. That is all I am saying.

I have asked you numerous times what Zen can do for me that Christian prayer cannot. That is really the main objective of this thread. But then you seem to get angry with me as usual and say this is not about Prayer. I know it isn’t. But is not the goal the same to clear your mind. To help take stress out of your life and let you see things more clear and for what they are.

Prayer will do the job. Nothing has been proven to beat it yet. So until something comes along stick with Prayer and the Grace of God. That is all I am saying.

How you got me saying this to denying the study of Science and the unknown beats the heck out of me. I thought we were talking about zen meditation. I don’t know what you are talking about anymore.

But for us Roman Catholics I will say once again listen to your Pope and he said Not to do this. Its as simple as that.

 

[TheAtheist]

What is it about this that you seem to be so defensive about. All that I said is that it is not advised by our Pope and to stick to Christian Prayer. That is my take on it. Why does that upset you so much.

Actually i’m not upset. Just rather dumbfounded - you really aren’t like any other Catholic i’ve ever met in my whole entire life. Then again, as i like to point out to my atheist friends, i’ve probably been with the greats - fine products of Jesuit and Franciscan learning.

God gave us a mind to learn and understand everything. Where am I disagreeing with Medical Science.

I never said a word about us not needing study’s and science etc.

Ok but then i said:

There is no 3rd person method to explore the workings of the inner mind (a fact as a materialist i regret sincerely), the only road available to us is by introspection. We can’t “go to God” and ask this question or expect to find the answer within Catholic theology or the Bible - because that was not the purpose of these things. Exploring the mind was the purpose of these techniques however, furthermore they are paying out dividends in terms of some basic improvements to cognitive function.

IE: We can’t get any further with the study of science, specifically in cognition/neurbio/psychology/psyciatry/neurology if we don’t resort to using Zen Meditation and other forms of meditative practices emanating from your tradition.

We can’t use anything from your tradition because, again, it doesn’t do the same thing.

So let me break that down for you once again so you understand.

1.) your saying your folks shouldn’t due to the way your interpreting a particular statement by the Pope.

2.) I’m saying “Well if we don’t, if you decide to completely forego all such things…” Then your blocking your fellow Catholics from pursuing investigation into the mysteries of consciousness Because…

3.) … Zen Mediation/Samadhi/et al are the only methods we have currently to explore matters of introspection. And i say this as a person who doesn’t even subscribe to anything particularly spiritual.

To which you say…

. I said Christian prayer is enough to reach the results that you are seeking. That is all I am saying.

Which completely contradicts your admission before regarding Zen Meditation not being the same thing as Christian prayer.

In terms of the science aspect, Prayer can’t get us the same results. the sections of the brain that go off aren’t the same. We may learn something, but it will be another aspect.

I suppose it might be worthwhile to run something on the Hesychast tradition - that is if the Monks of Mt. Athos would even be wiling participate (i’ve heard they tend to be an irritable bunch).

And just in case anyone is wondering, yes someting has been run on praying the rosary - result: congratulations Catholics, you probably have lower blood pressure than your Protestant counterparts - provided you actually do it continuously and with level of concentration.

To the wider audience: Rinnie made an appeal at the end of the last post to avoid such practices. Allow me to make a reverse appeal;

I am not a Buddhist, i am not invested in any weird spirituality, and i am a materialist.

But above all i’m a human being who has compassion for others and a strict empiricist.

I am saying that the study of Zen Meditation and Tibetan forms has opened doors to avenues of research regarding the functionality of the human mind. I am saying it pays out cognitive dividends that are different from anything that you have in your tradition to date (hey you never know. no one’s down a study on the Spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola for instance).

If it helps you - use it. Otherwise, if i may draw an analogy, you are tying yourself up in a knot the way you can find Christians of other sects refusing for instance Blood Transfusions or even medical care because “its the will of God.”

 

[TheAtheist]

And as our progression and understanding move forward about such matters, as you see more about eastern meditation in the news (its popping up quite frequently these days - New York Times, BBC World News, etc) before you make any decisions about what this is really about or fallback on old cognitive patterns or appeal to a kind of tribalism regarding your own belief system, bear in mind the words of your Saint Augusitne:

There is knowledge to be had, after all, about the earth, about the sky, about the other elements of this world, about the movements and revolutions or even the magnitude and distances of the constellations, about the predictable eclipses of moon and sun, about the cycles of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, fruits, stones, and everything else of this kind. And it frequently happens that even non-Christians will have knowledge of this sort in a way that they can substantiate with scientific arguments or experiments. Now it is quite disgraceful and disastrous, something to be on one’s guard against at all costs, that they should ever hear Christians spouting what they claim our Christian literature has to say on these topics, and talking such nonsense that they can scarcely contain their laughter when they see them to be toto caelo, as the saying goes, wide of the mark. And what is so vexing is not that misguided people should be laughed at, as that our authors should be assumed by outsiders to have held such views and, to the great detriment of those about whose salvation we are so concerned, should be written off and consigned to the waste paper basket as so many ignoramuses.

Whenever, you see, they catch some members of the Christian community making mistakes on a subject which they know inside out, and defending their hollow opinions on the authority of our books, on what grounds are they going to trust those books on the resurrection of the dead and the hope of eternal life and the kingdom of heaven, when they suppose they include any number of mistakes and fallacies on matters which they themselves have been able to master either by experiment or by the surest of calculations? It is impossible to say what trouble and grief such rash, self-assured know-alls cause the more cautious and experienced brothers and sisters. Whenever they find themselves challenged and taken to task for some shaky and false theory of theirs by people who do not recognize the authority of our books, they try to defend what they have aired with the most frivolous temerity and patent falsehood by bringing forward these same sacred books to justify it. Or they even quote from memory many things said in them which they imagine will provide them with valid evidence, not understanding either what they are saying, or the matters on which they are asserting themselves (1 Tm 1:7).

• Augustine of Hippo, De Genesi ad Litteram

Just because it came from some place else, some other culture, some other religious tradition doesn’t make it inherently bad. As Augustine stated, Pagans have knowledge too about things you may not know of.

Don’t reject it simply because its not Christian.

 

[rinnie]

Well You know you are not the first person to tell me I am quite Unique So I will choose to take that as a Compliment. Which I am sure is how you meant it

But we do not agree on this. The bottom line on the whole thing is the Pope said NOPE. I know that you don’t want to hear that, or accept that but its what it is.

As far a Science, I have not trouble with people who go out and find cures.

But did you know that here is no disease out there that cannot be cured. NONE. Everything is out there and you are correct. But everything comes from God and when God is ready to reveal it he will.

God is who has given these gifts and talents to People who are called to do his work. The bible tells you we all have different gifts. But bottom line, it does not matter how smart you are, If God wants it revealed it will be when and where and by whom he chooses.

I still do not understand how My saying that Zen cannot compare to Christian Prayer makes me contradict myself though.

All I am saying is you are telling us how to practice this? For what? What is the purpose? Then you wll get my Point. We don’t need it. Not on a personal level. Christians do not have to turn to this. If there is something that we need the good Lord will find a way to provide. We aren’t missing anything. And if we are the Rosarys are the better choice.

Just because your study’s have only shown lowering of blood pressure from praying does not mean that is all it has ever done.

The Rosary can change your life. You haven’t a clue what it has done for me in my life. Unlike you telling you have done Zen with No results I can tell you tons of things the Rosary has done for me.

ANd thousands upon thousands can back me up also with what it has done for them.

SO for a study lets tal about what works. And because Science cannot explain it they still cannot ignore the resutls.

Yes the human mind is amazing. And noone fully understands it. Only one person the person who created it. God. While he continues to reveal the mystery of it to Man as time goes on, he still has control over what he reveals, when he will, and how he will. He has his reasons.

He gave man Reason. Reason and History. And by reason and History we make many discovery’s. But always by his Grace and his Power.

Science has not power over God. God has power over science. Always has, always will.

 

[rinnie]

By the way I never said you were a BUddhist, etc. I never accused you of being anything.

All I said is I do not see where this is something that can help us on a personal level.

 

[Cecilianus]

But we do not agree on this. The bottom line on the whole thing is the Pope said NOPE. I know that you don’t want to hear that, or accept that but its what it is.

What the Pope was talking about - and, it would be really nice if we could see his actual words; I frankly don’t remember anything about Zen in “Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life” which is the authoritative Vatican document on the New Age - was confusing Zen with Christian prayer. He said nothing about it as a purely psychological or physiological technique. And what he said, unless it was ex cathedra, was simply his private opinion about something that’s really not directly connected with faith or morals.

In other words, you haven’t shown us that “the Pope said NOPE”. In fact, I don’t think that’s what he said at all.

 

[rinnie]

What the Pope was talking about - and, it would be really nice if we could see his actual words; I frankly don’t remember anything about Zen in “Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life” which is the authoritative Vatican document on the New Age - was confusing Zen with Christian prayer. He said nothing about it as a purely psychological or physiological technique. And what he said, unless it was ex cathedra, was simply his private opinion about something that’s really not directly connected with faith or morals.

In other words, you haven’t shown us that “the Pope said NOPE”. In fact, I don’t think that’s what he said at all.

Then look it up yourself and prove me wrong. I quoted what he said in the first sentence of my last post. So find his letter to the Vatican and read for yourself what he wrote. Then you can see that I am right.

You must remember the Pope is our leader and if he feels that it can do more harm then good and says not to do this practice we as Roman Catholics should listen to him.

I never said that you had to obey him. I have to. SO find it and figure it out for yourself.

The Pope has the keys to the kingdom. We listen to his opinions and will take his over anyone elses. While you feel that we do not have to, and that is your personal belief. I believe we should and I obey him. Rather he is speaking in the voice of the HS or not.

I trust him above all others. Where are you do condemn me for obeying my Pope.

So read what he says about Zen and Yoga and you will find that I did not lie to you.

Gotta go. Husband is home early from work and its beautiful out. I am closing early myself and we are taking off on the bike!! It has been a long cold winter. But now it is time for fire up the Bike and enjoy!

 

[praxising]

Zen meditation is different than prayer. Prayer involves reinscribing yourself in a narrative – telling yourself a story about talking to an imaginary entity and receiving an “answer” of some kind…

This is not correct, even overlooking the rude reference to the “imaginary entity.” Apparently you are not familiar with contemplative prayer or other forms.