Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[Mary_Jessica]

First of all if you read the Bible without assuming it is wrong (this is for the Athiest) you will find many things that teach practices that would lead to a blissful sadmahi like experiance. You mentioned monks and I am sure they have had a similar phenomena. You also have to remember the time language and context in which the bible was written and evaluate it from there. Obviously an unlearned person would have a hard time finding the true meaning behind it.

Rinnie, just curious have you ever experianced sadmahi?

Cellanious, if you read some catholic teaching on the nature of good and evil you will see the only truth is God. St Agustine had some interesting writings on this along with more modern perspectives. If the only truth and real existence is God then you can see how meditation can aid in surrender. Through meditation we learn to trust not our inadequate thoughts but the spark of divinity within all of creation. If anyone purely seeks goodness and truth any obstacle will be overcome. That is grace, but first you have to have faith in it. Otherwise what point did Christ serve? If people buy into something untrue, if the pure desire for truth is there, eventually they will figure it out. But first we have to realize that we don’t totally understand it yet, that is the only way to learn.
If we are all children of God and we assume we need to improve then we have to not exclude any possibilities and assume we are stupid. To count out the goodness and knowledge of any of Gods creation would be missing out. You will find that truth looks very similar everywhere if you are willing to look.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

It is unkind and quite arrogant to say anyone is praying to an imaginary entity. Perhaps you should check your preconceived notions before making such a statement. There is a lot i do not understand that is why I don’t feel able to judge it. Contemplative prayer is a form of mediation that can have very similar phenomena as Buddhist or yogic practices. And the Athiest is right we shouldn’t shun anything because of the wrong lable.
There aren’t as many Christians in the priesthood or living a monastic life today to study. And I do think that the lack of attention to the reality of the transformation of the individual is creating doubt. For the average person reading the catechism by the time it gets to that part it just days mystery. Since they have never before felt it the possibilities are limited to what they already know. So many are reaching for something that isn’t there to them except in “imagination”. But the more the realization is just waiting to be dug out.

 

[praxising]

All right, some points for Rinnie :

(1) You have asked what Zen can do that prayer cannot. The answer is very simple, and threefold (I’m adding one from my answer earlier): (1) perceptual clarity about the world (useful tool for philosophy), (2) Calmness of mind, and (3) Satori (an instantaneous insight about something that cannot be expressed in words).

Contemplative Christian prayer gives all these things and more. Christian Mysticism isn’t some poor step-child of the Eastern variety, we need to keep in mind before Constantine, Christianity, like Judaism was an eastern Mystical religion. Those Wise Men who came to pay homage to Jesus, weren’t an anomaly.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

First of all if you read the Bible without assuming it is wrong (this is for the Athiest) you will find many things that teach practices that would lead to a blissful sadmahi like experiance. You mentioned monks and I am sure they have had a similar phenomena. You also have to remember the time language and context in which the bible was written and evaluate it from there. Obviously an unlearned person would have a hard time finding the true meaning behind it.

[SIGN]Rinnie, just curious have you ever experianced sadmahi?[/SIGN]Cellanious, if you read some catholic teaching on the nature of good and evil you will see the only truth is God. St Agustine had some interesting writings on this along with more modern perspectives. If the only truth and real existence is God then you can see how meditation can aid in surrender. Through meditation we learn to trust not our inadequate thoughts but the spark of divinity within all of creation. If anyone purely seeks goodness and truth any obstacle will be overcome. That is grace, but first you have to have faith in it. Otherwise what point did Christ serve? If people buy into something untrue, if the pure desire for truth is there, eventually they will figure it out. But first we have to realize that we don’t totally understand it yet, that is the only way to learn.
If we are all children of God and we assume we need to improve then we have to not exclude any possibilities and assume we are stupid. To count out the goodness and knowledge of any of Gods creation would be missing out. You will find that truth looks very similar everywhere if you are willing to look.

Yes, Right before my brother died I was having a really hard time. Not only with him being very close to death but even the idea of him dying.

We were very close 2 years apart. Well 2 days before God took him I was praying hard and I pretty much saw where he was heading.

IT did not make his death any easier as far a him leaving, but I could understand why he wanted to go.

All I can say is the feeling is like being in a cold rain and then someone wraping you up in a warm towel. That feeling is inside and out.

My biggest fear was to die, from that day on I can see why death is a wonderful thing. I no longer see death as the unknown. I never undertood the saying pray for a beautiful death. I know now it is indeed possible. And I can see why our loved ones would never want to come back. No one would.

I have always been gifted in this world with Love, My Dad loved me so much, my Mom, My brothers and Sisters, My Husband makes me feel so loved, my kids. But it could never compare to what this kind of Love is.

You will see someday! I pray we all will. It was so real that it made me see why my brother Had to leave.

 

[praxising]

I have always been gifted in this world with Love, My Dad loved me so much, my Mom, My brothers and Sisters, My Husband makes me feel so loved, my kids. But it could never compare to what this kind of Love is.

You will see someday! I pray we all will. It was so real that it made me see why my brother Had to leave.

Thank you for sharing this.

One of the things about your experience, in terms of what we are discussing, I think, is it points out that the benefits of prayer come from God, not from our efforts, and they are for us, as individuals, and are specific to our needs. And yet, they are able to come to us because we have opened ourselves to them through prayer.

Meditation is somewhat two-dimensional in the face of the exchange and mutuality of person/Spirit of Christian prayer, as I see it…

 

[Cecilianus]

First of all if you read the Bible without assuming it is wrong (this is for the Athiest) you will find many things that teach practices that would lead to a blissful sadmahi like experiance. You mentioned monks and I am sure they have had a similar phenomena. You also have to remember the time language and context in which the bible was written and evaluate it from there. Obviously an unlearned person would have a hard time finding the true meaning behind it.

Rinnie, just curious have you ever experianced sadmahi?

Cellanious, if you read some catholic teaching on the nature of good and evil you will see the only truth is God. St Agustine had some interesting writings on this along with more modern perspectives. If the only truth and real existence is God then you can see how meditation can aid in surrender. Through meditation we learn to trust not our inadequate thoughts but the spark of divinity within all of creation. If anyone purely seeks goodness and truth any obstacle will be overcome. That is grace, but first you have to have faith in it. Otherwise what point did Christ serve? If people buy into something untrue, if the pure desire for truth is there, eventually they will figure it out. But first we have to realize that we don’t totally understand it yet, that is the only way to learn.
If we are all children of God and we assume we need to improve then we have to not exclude any possibilities and assume we are stupid. To count out the goodness and knowledge of any of Gods creation would be missing out. You will find that truth looks very similar everywhere if you are willing to look.

I highlighted the heterodox statement. The Catholic understanding of God’s immanence is that He is present everywhere “by essence, presence, and power” (quoting the Summa Theologiae), but that He is not the formal being of all things. In other words, there is no “spark of divinity” within everything, rather, the whole being of anything is a participation in the Being of God. It is also more correct to say that all things are in God than to say that God is in all things.

“Evil” may have no self-subsistent being, but this does not change the fact that Satan does. Satan was created by God - but He is nonetheless extremely evil and much higher up on the “great chain of being” than we are. Don’t use Blessed Augustine’s description of evil as parasitic and as non-being to let you be any less vigilant against it.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

Agreed. I just hate to se someone give up to strive for more due to fear. And yes all things are in God is a better description than God in them. Thanks

And Rinnie that was a very beautiful description. I had a very similar experiance after my mother died last year. I was also very afraid of death, definatley not anymore. It is as if your body dissolves in unconditional love that is beyond what the world contains.You were very fortunate to have so many supportive people around you. I was not so lucky and found to speak of it was not a very good idea. I think this is what lead to a lot of my research. If it were all peaches and cream I probably wouldn’t have spent so much time trying to understand it.

 

[praxising]

I was also very afraid of death, definatley not anymore. It is as if your body dissolves in unconditional love that is beyond what the world contains.You were very fortunate to have so many supportive people around you. I was not so lucky and found to speak of it was not a very good idea. .

I think there is such a thing as “spiritual jealousy” and you have to be careful sometimes who you cast those pearls in front of. What’s interesting is that while we can never “prove” to anyone else that these experiences happened, or any other kind of experience or miraculous occurrence, when you speak among people who have BTDT so to speak, it seems so familiar and is easily accepted. So, we validate one another.

That spiritual jealousy isn’t limited to Western folks, either. I know from my reading it’s common in Buddhist practitioners, also. Probably common to every belief system with a mystical component. People have a tendency to strive for the experience only in order to have the experience.

 

[Cecilianus]

I think there is such a thing as “spiritual jealousy” and you have to be careful sometimes who you cast those pearls in front of. What’s interesting is that while we can never “prove” to anyone else that these experiences happened, or any other kind of experience or miraculous occurrence, when you speak among people who have BTDT so to speak, it seems so familiar and is easily accepted. So, we validate one another.

That spiritual jealousy isn’t limited to Western folks, either. I know from my reading it’s common in Buddhist practitioners, also. Probably common to every belief system with a mystical component. People have a tendency to strive for the experience only in order to have the experience.

fyi experience mentioned wasn’t samadhi, which was the original question asked. As I understand it, samadhi is nondual consciousness.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

From what I have read the initial onset is very similar. Considering the loss of the feeling of being seperate. I could be wrong though. For a few days after nothing felt sperate it was beautiful. But eventually the “real world” kicks in. Dualisim is the feeling of the world being a seperate entity from yourself. I think the Athiest can help us on this, but I think that it manifests itself physically as an activation of the parts of the right brain that are typically dormant. So in a sense the dualism in your brain begins to diminish as well. As we are mostly left brain material oriented typically.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I think there is such a thing as “spiritual jealousy” and you have to be careful sometimes who you cast those pearls in front of. What’s interesting is that while we can never “prove” to anyone else that these experiences happened, or any other kind of experience or miraculous occurrence, when you speak among people who have BTDT so to speak, it seems so familiar and is easily accepted. So, we validate one another.

That spiritual jealousy isn’t limited to Western folks, either. I know from my reading it’s common in Buddhist practitioners, also. Probably common to every belief system with a mystical component. People have a tendency to strive for the experience only in order to have the experience.

I never thought of that before. But yes it is cool how certain people do not react with jealousy. I just thought it was fear of the unknown.

 

[rinnie]

Agreed. I just hate to se someone give up to strive for more due to fear. And yes all things are in God is a better description than God in them. Thanks

And Rinnie that was a very beautiful description. I had a very similar experiance after my mother died last year. I was also very afraid of death, definatley not anymore. It is as if your body dissolves in unconditional love that is beyond what the world contains.You were very fortunate to have so many supportive people around you. I was not so lucky and found to speak of it was not a very good idea. I think this is what lead to a lot of my research. If it were all peaches and cream I probably wouldn’t have spent so much time trying to understand it.

Personally Mary Jessica I never knew there was a name for what happened to me. I like you really never told anyone. Never actually felt a real need to.

I just knew that it was real and no words for it. Still really can’t find true words. But I do know one thing for sure, the feeling of Love and security no matter as I told you how loved and protected you are in this world could never touch this feeling.

You walk away with a Grace that you carry in your heart that will never die.

I one time told someone on here that I would take the bible been doing this for years, close my eyes and poing to a scirpture. Then would concentrate on it all day.

Then somehow someway that scripture would be all over ewtn all week. It would come up in Church that week. And by the end of the week it would have a great impact on my life. Later I heard there was a name for that also. Lectio Divina. I swear to you I never knew that existed until many years later.

As much as I hate to admit it, I can understand people not understanding. I probally would not believe it myself if it didn’t happen to me. I don’t ever remember learning about this in Catholic School. Ever. If it was taught it went right over my head or I was daydreaming

One Day I said to my husband watch I can prove this is true. I said now this is the Scripture lets see what happens. Well it happened. Just like I said. He looked at me at first like he has seen a ghost. Then when I learned what it was we both laughed.

I said see did you think I was going crazy? He said yes and I thought you were taking me with you

 

[Mary_Jessica]

I think that initial very blissful mystical moment was not feeling seperate from God. That carries over to not feeling seperate from everything else. If we could all stay that way the world would be a much better place. For me due lack of spiritual discipline, lack of understanding of the phenomena, and a somewhat hostile environment it was lost. It does have a permanent effect on the way you perceive things. Every thing had to be looked at as part of the whole.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

Personally Mary Jessica I never knew there was a name for what happened to me. I like you really never told anyone. Never actually felt a real need to.

I just knew that it was real and no words for it. Still really can’t find true words. But I do know one thing for sure, the feeling of Love and security no matter as I told you how loved and protected you are in this world could never touch this feeling.

You walk away with a Grace that you carry in your heart that will never die.

I one time told someone on here that I would take the bible been doing this for years, close my eyes and poing to a scirpture. Then would concentrate on it all day.

Then somehow someway that scripture would be all over ewtn all week. It would come up in Church that week. And by the end of the week it would have a great impact on my life. Later I heard there was a name for that also. Lectio Divina. I swear to you I never knew that existed until many years later.

As much as I hate to admit it, I can understand people not understanding. I probally would not believe it myself if it didn’t happen to me. I don’t ever remember learning about this in Catholic School. Ever. If it was taught it went right over my head or I was daydreaming

One Day I said to my husband watch I can prove this is true. I said now this is the Scripture lets see what happens. Well it happened. Just like I said. He looked at me at first like he has seen a ghost. Then when I learned what it was we both laughed.

I said see did you think I was going crazy? He said yes and I thought you were taking me with you

 

[Mary_Jessica]

That is very interesting. God bless

 

[praxising]

fyi experience mentioned wasn’t samadhi, which was the original question asked. As I understand it, samadhi is nondual consciousness.

Not sure how this relates to what I said, but for your information, samadhi, like all subjective spiritual experiences, has multiple definitions. Here’s one part of a discussion, for instance, in Ecopsychology. I’m not sure, but I think there are more forms of eastern meditations and ideas about states of that than there are Christian sects! Yes, Christians experience what you would call “samadhi.” I have. How that’s interpreted, varies. And I am not going to try and describe what is an essentially ineffable experience in this forum. My experience is not subject to judgment by anyone else, either as to what labels to attach to it or whether it was really this or that.

 

[Mary_Jessica]

That was one of the reasons I have been researching this. For the people who do not have people around who know of these things. It is hard to find a word for this or description in Christian texts that is really clear. Often people are lead to descriptions from Eastern religions. To use a term from a religion that is strange and seen occasionally as demonic by some can create a lot of turmoil and misunderstanding amongst other Christians. I don’t mind it at all, but many people are not so open and are quick to judge.
So far the most accurate and detailed accounts I can find of spiritual phenomena are from Buddhist and Hindu writings. Just saying this to some will lead some to believe you doubt the faith.

 

[praxising]

That was one of the reasons I have been researching this. For the people who do not have people around who know of these things. It is hard to find a word for this or description in Christian texts that is really clear. Often people are lead to descriptions from Eastern religions. To use a term from a religion that is strange and seen occasionally as demonic by some can create a lot of turmoil and misunderstanding amongst other Christians. I don’t mind it at all, but many people are not so open and are quick to judge.
So far the most accurate and detailed accounts I can find of spiritual phenomena are from Buddhist and Hindu writings. Just saying this to some will lead some to believe you doubt the faith.

You know, they took Saint Teresa of Avila in front of the Inquisition at least twice, maybe three times. So it’s been a long tradition that those who have these experiences, often associated with contemplation, but which can come through God’s grace at any time we need them, should still engender these reactions.

I thought something from St Teresa would be appropriate here as the topic comes to the “oneness” with God, which is also the topic of the Christian contemplative classic The Cloud of Unknowing" attributed to a monk, but author unknown. Personally, I think it was written by a woman, but I digress…

If we accept no one can really describe that experience which ends up being larger than or outside of the narrow confines of a brain, then I think we can all relate to what St Teresa is saying as she tries to describe what part of her experience during what she called the Prayer of Quiet, these are a series of excerpts from a long passage. She is a Doctor of the Church, let no one doubt the faith of someone with these experiences:

“Let us come now to the most intimate part of what the soul experiences. The persons who speak of it are the ones who know it, for it cannot be understood, still less described. As I was about to write this, I was wondering what it is the soul does during that time, when the Lord said these words to me,” It dies to itself wholly, daughter, in order that it may fix itself more and more upon Me; it is no longer itself that lives but I…"

I should like, with the help of God, to be able to describe the difference between union and rapture, or elevation, or what they call flight of spirit, or transport - it is all one. I mean that these different names all refer to the same thing, which is also called ecstasy. …

…our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and strange prayer it doesn’t understand…what I’m saying seems like gibberish, but certainl te experience takes place in this way, fo rthe joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord. … It seems it has found itself… To be silent and conceal this great impulse of happiness when experiencing it is no small pain.

I used to unexpectedly experience a consciousness of the presence of God, of such a kind that I could not possibly doubt that He was within me or that I was wholly engulfed in Him. The soul is suspended in such a way that it seems to be completely outside itself. "