Zen Meditation: Theory and Practice

[Cecilianus]

Now things exactly as they are might include a desire to change them, and that’s part of the perfection of Now, but that’s entirely different.

Actually this is exactly what religion - or what my religion, at least - does. Humility (seeing things as they really are, now) and repentance (a desire to change them) are inseparable.

Repentance does not mean thinking fantasies about what we should be like. That would actually be a form of spiritual delusion (prelest), and therefore a source of pride. We should not even think about what we should be like - we should just trust in God and repent of the sins we have now on our souls.

 

[Cecilianus]

Sufjon, out of curiosity - and my own ignorance, since I maybe should have been able to glean the answer from what you’ve already said - which tradition within Hinduism do you practice (Vaishnavism, Shaivism, etc.)?

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon, out of curiosity - and my own ignorance, since I maybe should have been able to glean the answer from what you’ve already said - which tradition within Hinduism do you practice (Vaishnavism, Shaivism, etc.)?

Hi Cecilianus: You are certainly not ignorant, and I’m happy to answer. I am a Vaishnavite. For a person like me, Vaishnavism is a more difficult route than Shaivism, but it is how I believe I was called, so I do my best

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[AntiTheist]

A Buddhist friend on this thread made the comparison between Zen and the Jesus Prayer. In most respects this comparison is very superficial and inaccurate

Yeah, that’s more or less right. You could take the Jesus prayer – or any other prayer – and adapt it into mantrayoga, but you could do that with virtually anything. The Simpsons did it with “Who wears short shorts?”

Zen does so through a psychological technique; the Jesus Prayer does so through kenosis (self-emptying) before God.

Well, I’d classify them both as psychological techniques, but whatever.

I’m not sure that strict empiricism is very compatible with modern physics - by this standard you would have to say that a virtual photon exchanged during an EM interaction “doesn’t exist at all”; and if it doesn’t exist then I’m hard-pressed to explain how it causes the interaction.

Well, I’m not really up on my quantum physics, but it’s my understanding that virtual particles do produce detectable manifestations in the real world. If they don’t, then they’re hypothetical and less certain than other things proposed by scientists.

All I’m saying is that things that we are justified in believing are real are things that manifest in detectable ways. How else would you decide that something is real?

I suggest you read Hume’s Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding to show the consequences entailed by seriously holding this position - I found it frightening, to my common-sense no less than to my belief in science.

I’ve of course read Hume, but it was a long time ago now. I can’t imagine what you found “frightening,” though.

 

[Cecilianus]

Well, I’m not really up on my quantum physics, but it’s my understanding that virtual particles do produce detectable manifestations in the real world. If they don’t, then they’re hypothetical and less certain than other things proposed by scientists.

Sure it produces an effect - the electromagnetic interaction. But that’s an effect we knew about for centuries before we had the faintest clue about virtual particles. We can’t detect the virtual exchange particles themselves, unless there’s something major that I don’t know about (highly unlikely but always possible - I’m only just finishing up my undergraduate degrees). Their existence is required by QM, and they explain an incredible amount. They’re not really any more “hypothetical” than anything else in physics; I’m not aware of any controversy over them among physicists (among philosophers is another matter). They’re certainly a lot more certain than the objects postulated by string theory, for example.

All I’m saying is that things that we are justified in believing are real are things that manifest in detectable ways. How else would you decide that something is real?

I think it would be useful to turn back to a distinction made by medieval logicians, for whom there are two ways to know something. An argument propter quid begins with a cause and argues to an effect; for example we start with the postulates of QM and argue to virtual particles from there. An argument quia begins with an effect and argues to a cause; for example we see alpha particles rebounding sharply off of gold atoms and argue that the gold atoms have to have a nucleus. I don’t think you’re accepting the validity of arguments propter quid, but to deny them would involve denying the validity of both mathematical proofs and of the basic Aristotelian syllogisms, both of which seem pretty difficult positions to hold.

I’ve of course read Hume, but it was a long time ago now. I can’t imagine what you found “frightening,” though.

It was his total skepticism and anti-scientism that I found frightening. If Hume is “true”, whatever “truth” comes to mean with his skepticism, then science is divorced from reality. (For example, he denies causality. Then we really can’t say that there needs to be a nucleus in a gold atom causing the alpha particles to rebound sharply.) Skepticism destroys science even faster than it destroys religion, because there is no “divine revelation” in science that we can trust in as we do in religion.

 

[cathoichelp]

Excellent thread!

There is so much beauty in Zen- I mainly practice this through yoga as mediation is hard for me … although I have done meditation walks in Thailand - it’s weird how much easier it is to connect over there… well perhaps not weird at all!

At any rate - I enjoyed reading this

 

[SedesDomi]

Zen is Kenosis: Zenosis.

 

[rinnie]

A Catholic would never find it necessary to practice Zen.

We feel that there is nothing lacking in Christianity or our daily prayer life rather it be the Rosary, or daily medication in our prayer life.

We are taught that we are advanced not by emptying ourselves to a SELF-INDUCED state. We believe in Complete Prayer. It is prayer that comes from the Grace of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit, not ones self.

You can read the CCC 2709-19 on this.

There is NO other way other then the Prayers of a Christian CCC 2664.

No Saints every emptyied themselves. When you read of the Saints there is not even a hint of Zen from them. Their mind is not empty, it is quite full when it Gazes upon the Person of Christ who they try to imitate in their lives.

When we pray it is To God, our Quiet time is dedicated TO GOD. We do not see looking into ourself for answers, or powers, or peace. We look for EVERYTHING that is GOOD to come from God.

When we close our eyes and pray and meditate it is God who is the center of our Mind, it is by the Holy Spirit that we find confort, and Joy, and the Holy Spirit whom we draw strength from.

When we pray we are trying to become better in ourself. We are asking God to enter into us and make us better and fuller, We do not empty ourself, as I stated, we do quite the opposite we concentrate on Christ and his love for us. We pray for the affects of the fullness of oneself with Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Also Zen points to the mind of Man, and in Zen there is no reality that exists beyond here and now.

Christianity is the complete opposite. We know that God exists beyond here and now. God is the Past, Present and Future. God is all things. God is our reality! He is our reason for living and trying to become what we need to be.

We are taught to live the way Christ lived not by the mind of man.

 

[rossum]

When you read of the Saints there is not even a hint of Zen from them.

“Nada, nada, nada, y en el monte, nada.”

“Preach always. Use words if you have to.”

rossum

 

[Cecilianus]

No Saints every emptyied themselves. When you read of the Saints there is not even a hint of Zen from them. Their mind is not empty, it is quite full when it Gazes upon the Person of Christ who they try to imitate in their lives.

On the contrary, kenosis is a necessary part of Christian sanctification. Unless you eventually empty your mind of all that is its own - including your imaginative fancies about God, such as were useful in beginning stages of mental prayer - you cannot have room to be filled with the Person of Christ.

 

[bigquests]

St. John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, sounds very Zen to me–the ‘nada, nada’ --thing. He emptied himself to be filled with God. The emptying on oneself and destruction of the ego is very Zen. It’s a *process.*not a belief. What you use to fill the emptiness is something else. It may be ‘nada nada’ or it may be God.

 

[rinnie]

On the contrary, kenosis is a necessary part of Christian sanctification. Unless you eventually empty your mind of all that is its own - including your imaginative fancies about God, such as were useful in beginning stages of mental prayer - you cannot have room to be filled with the Person of Christ.

Zen teaches you can reach enlightement through meditation and intuition. Mixing Zen and Christianity as both as being equal has never been Sanctioned.

There is a difference between opening your mind to God and praying, and practicing Zen which points to the mind of Men. When we pray we do not pray or open our minds to ourself, we open them to God and his works.

We do not come out of prayer with just quiet time. When we come out of prayer we are not just relaxed, or emptyied we come out full and feel the Powrer of the Holy Spirit to do better and do more of Gods work.

Zen is a meditative technique within itself. Christian prayer is Christ in his Sacred Humanity that enlightens the path before us. Can you not see the difference.

We do not go into prayer with an empty mind, our mind is focused on one thing and that is Christ. How can we empty ourself in mind and soul and not be focused on Christ. Is not being FOCUSED the purpose of Prayer.

There is a difference of emptying your soul of sin and bad thoughts, But when we pray we are full of hope and focused on Christ. That is not an empty mind.

We have no imagined fancies about God, God left nothing left for us to have to imagine. He sent his Son to show us all we need to know. We know all we have to know, we do not look from within ourself for teacings or knowledge. Jesus left us the Church.

 

[rossum]

On the contrary, kenosis is a necessary part of Christian sanctification. Unless you eventually empty your mind of all that is its own - including your imaginative fancies about God, such as were useful in beginning stages of mental prayer - you cannot have room to be filled with the Person of Christ.

The Master Nan-in had a visitor who came to inquire about Zen. But
instead of listening, the visitor kept talking about his own ideas.

After a while, Nan-in served tea. He poured tea into his visitor’s
cup until it was full, then he kept on pouring.

Finally the visitor could not restrain himself. “Don’t you see
it’s full?” he said. “You can’t get any more in!”

“Just so,” replied Nan-in, stopping at last. “And like this cup,
you are filled with your own ideas. How can you expect me to give
you Zen unless you offer me an empty cup?”
rossum

 

[AntiTheist]

We can’t detect the virtual exchange particles themselves …] Their existence is required by QM, and they explain an incredible amount.

There’s a big difference, from my perspective, between “we’re postulating these virtual particles because they’re part of a model that explains and predicts observable results with incredible accuracy” and “I’m just gonna believe in X because it makes me feel good and doesn’t contradict anything I know about reality.”

Anyway, QM is a bad example to use because it’s so poorly understood by everyone that it’s difficult to sensibly discuss. We’re trying to talk about something that neither one of us really has the ability to do.

It was [Hume’s] total skepticism and anti-scientism that I found frightening …] he denies causality.

Interestingly, from the perspective of Zen, there actually is no past, no future, and no thing that we can call “present.” In the Moment that you experience in Zen practice, there aren’t “causes” or “time,” which are all things created by the mind to make day-to-day life easier.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

There’s a big difference, from my perspective, between “we’re postulating these virtual particles because they’re part of a model that explains and predicts observable results with incredible accuracy” and “I’m just gonna believe in X because it makes me feel good and doesn’t contradict anything I know about reality.”

Anyway, QM is a bad example to use because it’s so poorly understood by everyone that it’s difficult to sensibly discuss. We’re trying to talk about something that neither one of us really has the ability to do.

Interestingly, from the perspective of Zen, [SIGN]there actually is no past, no future, and no thing that we can call “present.” [/SIGN]In the Moment that you experience in Zen practice, there aren’t “causes” or “time,” which are all things created by the mind to make day-to-day life easier.

Exactly, when we pray we meditate on scripture and prayer. Scripture is the past the present and the future. Which is the exact opposite of what Zen is.

While some techniques can be successful Pope Ratzinger said that they are not free from dangers and errors.

Meditation is not an intellectual exercise. It is a Spirit to Spirit interaction.

Meditation requires that we Place OUR MIND under the CONTROL of GOD (the Holy Spirit). John 4:23-24

There are causes of time, God created time. We are called to use our time not to escape the causes but to utilize them in our time here to do the work of Christ.

When we meditate we try to unite our minds in the Goodness of Christ. That is why we can meditate on a scripture or pray, We can even spend our alone time talking with God, trying to spend every alone moment with him.

You don’t even have to pray to do this, You just open up your mind to him, and him only and you can feel the presense of the Holy Spirit surrounding you. It is a wonderful peaceful feeling.

 

[Cecilianus]

Zen teaches you can reach enlightement through meditation and intuition. Mixing Zen and Christianity as both as being equal has never been Sanctioned.

There is a difference between opening your mind to God and praying, and practicing Zen which points to the mind of Men. When we pray we do not pray or open our minds to ourself, we open them to God and his works.

We do not come out of prayer with just quiet time. When we come out of prayer we are not just relaxed, or emptyied we come out full and feel the Powrer of the Holy Spirit to do better and do more of Gods work.

Zen is a meditative technique within itself. Christian prayer is Christ in his Sacred Humanity that enlightens the path before us. Can you not see the difference.

We do not go into prayer with an empty mind, our mind is focused on one thing and that is Christ. How can we empty ourself in mind and soul and not be focused on Christ. Is not being FOCUSED the purpose of Prayer.

There is a difference of emptying your soul of sin and bad thoughts, But when we pray we are full of hope and focused on Christ. That is not an empty mind.

We have no imagined fancies about God, God left nothing left for us to have to imagine. He sent his Son to show us all we need to know. We know all we have to know, we do not look from within ourself for teacings or knowledge. Jesus left us the Church.

I don’t think anyone’s making Zen and Christianity equal - in fact, AntiTheist flat out described Zen as just “shutting up and being quiet”. And though I have never practiced it, I think it seems a very insightful and deep tool for reaching enlightenment of intellectual truths that cannot be expressed in words - like the profundity of a work of art, or the contemplation of nature.

 

[Cecilianus]

We have no imagined fancies about God, God left nothing left for us to have to imagine. He sent his Son to show us all we need to know. We know all we have to know, we do not look from within ourself for teacings or knowledge. Jesus left us the Church.

Every time you use your imagination in prayer (imagining Jesus or His Mother at one of the scenes honored by the Mysteries of the Rosary), you are indulging in “imagined fancies about God”. The Fathers of the Church warn strictly about the use of the imagination in prayer. Later, Western saints permitted it until it is no longer needed.

 

[waxwing]

I have been reading this thread and at same reading about meditation and a term that resonated more so with me - mindfullness. For me what came to mind to capture the essence of this is two things, both are hobbies of mine, skiing (knees bad so more of past hobby) and drawing/watercolour painting. Both of these activities bring about this nebulous term of mindfullness to clarity. Guess everyone will gave a different hobby which captures this - could be gardening, running, fishing etc etc seems like this concept more fully explained in the living it than theorizing part, thought I’d throw in my two cents on this topic.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think anyone’s making Zen and Christianity equal - in fact, AntiTheist flat out described Zen as just “shutting up and being quiet”. And though I have never practiced it, I think it seems a very insightful and deep tool for reaching enlightenment of intellectual truths that cannot be expressed in words - like the profundity of a work of art, or the contemplation of nature.

Wake up man, its not just shutting up and being quiet it is practicing Buddhism.

Pope John Paull ll said it is an atheistic System. Read his book Crossing the threshold of hope.

I mean if you want to leave the faith admit it to yourself at least. You are either hot or cold. If you are hot for your faith as Jesus taught us you stick with prayer and the teachings of the Church.

If you are cold you will search out to this. But at least don’t be fooled by this new age stuff, at least admit what you are doing.

Budda Salvation is a privite individual Consciousness.

For Catholics Salvation the ultimate goal is to meet Christ.

Sure we are taught to meditate and detach our soul from material things of this world, but the detachment does not stop there, We are taught to detach our soul from material things in this world so we can ATTACH our SOUL and offer it up to GOD.

There is no nothingless in our faith. Our faith is built on Christ.

Budda is a state of nothingless for goodness sakes.

Sure they can show you what we have in common, but really its not much.

When Jesus went up to the Mountain did he go to open up his mind and PRAY to THE FATHER, or did he open his mind up to nothingless. Please!

Its lent Man, get you priority’s in order. If you are indeed a Catholic please study up on the Catholic faith.

The Pope says that Buddhism possesses nothing of value for us, Everything that we need is in the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

If you want to pray and meditate, you pray and meditate on God the Father the way Jesus taught us. You go in a quiet room and pray, You open your mind and soul up to Christ not some nothingless goal.