Zombies and natural death

[Whitacre_Girl]

OK, I have seen a couple people on here reference zombies, and this is not meant to be a earthshattering, serious conversation so I debated even putting it here rather than the back fence or something. Anyway, I decided for here because it does have moral theology aspects…

This is for all you zombie movie fans out there. (finally, a thread for us!)

What does a post-zombie morality look like when it comes to “death with dignity”

I got the idea when watching a zombie film and a man was bitten. He was quickly becoming a flesh eating zombie, ready to hunt, kill, and infect others. He, as the heroes sailed away, looked at a gun and put it to his head and pulled the trigger. Both to ensure he doesn’t suffer the immense pain associated with the death of the transformation and also to ensure that he doesn’t add to their numbers.

Hubby and I talked about this, and we agreed that if one of us was bitten, we’d wanna be shot so we didn’t come back and bite the other. But is this moral? It’s done to (potentially) halt an infectious disease. We have deabted the morality back and forth with no definitive answer.

Anyway, this is obviously a totally ficititious situation and I was wondering what everyone though about it who has an affinity for zombie flicks. Come on fellow nerds! LOL

 

[Verbum_Caro]

I’m a zombie movie fan. I don’t know why!

I’ve never thought about those questions before, though, so I’ll be interested in the responses you get.

By the way, Dawn of the Dead, right?

VC

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I’m a zombie movie fan. I don’t know why!

I’ve never thought about those questions before, though, so I’ll be interested in the responses you get.

By the way, Dawn of the Dead, right?

VC

haha!! Yeah, you got it! +1 to your awesomeness level.

Basicalyl my husband and I flip-flop on it. At times we think it’d be permissible because it would be intended to stop the spread of the virus and save lives by stopping the infected from becoming an active zombie. However, and this is mor ein our mind, NO ONE wants to suffer the pain of being zombified. It’s almost like the sacrifice to end your life to stop the virus, comes with the benefit of not suffering a most excruciating death. But at the same time, we wonder if it’d be a good idea to let the person drift off into death (painfully) and then shoot them after they naturally expire so as not to kill them, but to ensure they can’t come back. However, do you want to run the risk of missing, then having them bite you, escape, and go on to bite others?

All interesting questions!

 

[aperture]

But at the same time, we wonder if it’d be a good idea to let the person drift off into death (painfully) and then shoot them after they naturally expire so as not to kill them, but to ensure they can’t come back. However, do you want to run the risk of missing, then having them bite you, escape, and go on to bite others?

All interesting questions!

Have you ever seen Shaun of the Dead? That movie contains an interest taking on this idea. Both funny and affecting, which is an interesting combination.

 

[vera_dicere]

Let me be up front. I’m pro-life, no exceptions, I’m against the death penalty, against war, against euthanasia.

But if there’s a zombie outbreak, to h3ll with you all, I’m not going to be saddled by burdens who can’t shoot straight, and keep screaming. Those tantrums and freak outs are like a neon sign for the infected.

Most people will know the rules, don’t get bitten. If you get bitten, I’ll give you the cure, a double tap to the head. Even pre-turn they’re no longer your friend, mother, spouse. If I got bitten, I’d want someone to do the same for me. Because, really, no one knows what will happen to the soul of a zombie, does it remain in the flesh, or does it leave?

Any morality I have will be out the window. If you civvies can keep up, and handle a machete, welcome aboard, otherwise, die with the rest of the norms.

Remember people, shoot them in the head, destory the brain. Don’t waste ammo on torso shots.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Have you ever seen Shaun of the Dead? That movie contains an interest taking on this idea. Both funny and affecting, which is an interesting combination.

Yes!! Actually, that was one of the first ever discussions about it. We watched it with a group of friends and wondered if we could do something like that in that situation.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Let me be up front. I’m pro-life, no exceptions, I’m against the death penalty, against war, against euthanasia.

But if there’s a zombie outbreak, to h3ll with you all, I’m not going to be saddled by burdens who can’t shoot straight, and keep screaming. Those tantrums and freak outs are like a neon sign for the infected.

Any morality I have will be out the window. If you civvies can keep up, and handle a machete, welcome aboard, otherwise, die with the rest of the norms.

Remember people, shoot them in the head, destory the brain. Don’t waste ammo on torso shots.

My husband is the same way. He is the most caring, pro-life and compassionate man I know! However, he very much believes that I am the only one he’ll keep with him during the outbreak because he knows he can trust me to keep a cool head, and care for household/survival tasks (I was raised on a farm, so I carry vital information and practice for the reconstruction…plus a female reproductive system). but he very much believes that he wouldn’t take any chances. I, however, am more judging about the morality of an infected person who has not yet turned. What do you do? hehe

We know he’d have the machete, though.

 

[Erin_Anne]

Haha! I love this question…

In the event of a Zombie Apocalypse in which I get bitten - take…me…out, or I’ll do it myself! All bets are off at that point. :nunchuk: I think it would be more moral to stop the outbreak so there’s some chance of people surviving.

Yes… I have thought of this before. My brother-in-law and I have even had heated arguments over where the best place to go would be, and what would make a good evacuation plan.

Side note: I personally prefer the original Dawn of the Dead to the newer one. There’s just something more psychologically freakish about slow moving Zombies…

 

[vera_dicere]

Side note: I personally prefer the original Dawn of the Dead to the newer one. There’s just something more psychologically freakish about slow moving Zombies…

There’s not time to have a mental crisis or get emotional! Take those slow moving zombies out!!

I can’t really watch the original, I sat there the whole time steaming with annoyance as that heavily pregnant woman hit back the wine.

Zombieland, now there’s a zombie movie I found amusing. Cardio indeed!

Shaun of the Dead is classy.

And for those of you who can get it, and are not bothered by foul language, dirty referances, a hint of blasphemy and jsut good old fashioned zombie mayhem, see if you can get your hands on Peter Jackson’s Brain Dead (Yeah, the LOTR’s director). Brain Dead has been banned in most countries, that’s how good it is!!

 

[vppoole]

IMO, a zombie in most cases would be an otherwise unstoppable force of evil (unless its appetite and contagion could be controlled). Therefore, I think it would be just for someone to kill a zombie for the protection of the people in the world–sort of like how Atticus Finch shot the rabid dog to protect the town in To Kill A Mockingbird. However, if, by less brutal means, zombies could be kept from harming people, then I think that would be the better choice.

Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but I must ask this. Doesn’t a zombie die (again) if it doesn’t eat a person soon? Also, would a zombie be regarded more as another animal than as a human if it loses its capacity to love, think and make free choices, or would it just be thought of as an extremely terminally diseased person?

Pax!

 

[willofgods]

I would like to give a totally Catholic answer to this question. As my first search of “zombie” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church search engine yielded no results, I delved deeper. From the CCC:

2308 …] “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”

Now if we just add in a few things, and replace a couple of others:

"as long as the danger of war against zombies persists…uninfected persons cannot be denied the right of self-defense

(and obviously, zombies crave our brains, not peace.)

Also, from the just war doctrine from the CCC (I will include relevant additions in parantheses):

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense (from zombies!) by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the (zombies) on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective (talking to them about their feelings…definitely not going to work);

• there must be serious prospects of success (as in, you must be willing to kick butt!);

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated (i.e., we’d better not use some biological weapon to beat them, that makes super zombies). The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

Furthermore, from Matthew 22:32:“He is not the God of the dead but of the living.” I.e., God’s on our side.

So in considering this all, I believe it is safe to say, Pope Benedict trade in his crozier for a double-barreled, zombie destroyer! !

(P.S. I hope I wasn’t too sacrilegious here…if there was a zombie attach though…I think the above would hold true!)
(P.P.S. Yes, I put way too much thought into this…)

 

[vera_dicere]

Please forgive my lack of knowledge, but I must ask this. Doesn’t a zombie die (again) if it doesn’t eat a person soon? Also, would a zombie be regarded more as another animal than as a human if it loses its capacity to love, think and make free choices, or would it just be thought of as an extremely terminally diseased person?

Pax!

Depends on the source you’re taking this from.

Since 28 days later, people have had some odd ideas about zombies, particuarly since this move was not about zombies, but people who were infected with the rage virus. They were still “human” in biological sense of needing to eat flesh, so when there was nothing to eat, they died.

But, if you look at the Resident Evil movies (as giant an abortion as they were), we are told that their hunger has nothign to do with a need. So, the zombies can live for perhaps centuaries.

I’m of the mind that zombies are more fiesty and agressive when they are in “good” health. Meaning they’ve newly turned, any injury sustained at death was not sufficient enough to cause them impedded mobility, and they have access to further flesh.

However, I would imagine, that as time passes, the zombie will rot, and this degregation will result in a lessening of their mobility and strength. Further more, I have contemplated upon zombie dehydration as an added condition that will cause stiffening of joints and tearing of skin.

Then of course, there’s the completely spiritual/magical side of things, where zombies are simply enslaved individuals by Voodoo witches and witch doctors, whereby, under these circumstances, perhaps a priest is required.

I would much like our great Church to provide some ideas on this matter, to correctly guide the faithful in the future zombie outbreaks.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Wow, I can’t tell you all what an unparalleled pleasure it is to meet so many catholic zombie-fighters out there!! KUDOS!!! :clapping:

I agree that you should kill the zombies. I love the use of the gospel tect of how God is a God of the living, not the dead. I laughed so hard and had to show that to hubby! He loved it!!!

The real question here though is an infected person who has not yet turned. I would likely shoot myself in that circumstance. Is that immoral? I say no.

As to the zombie plan, I kid you not when I say that my husband have an evacuation route planned, and a stronghold against every type of zombie brought to us by science fiction. A brief overview of zombism though:

Zombies are people, either living or dead (though generally accepted as dead) who have been completely taken over by a virus or other contagion that causes the gradual decay of flesh, unsatiable desire for human flesh, and in some cases - heightened human senses. I highly reccomend all here read Max Brooks “Zombie Survival Guide” it’s good stuff!!

Anyway, these are the plans we have in place:

slow (original Dawn of the Dead Zomies or Shaun of the Dead) zombies with expiration date: We meet at the house and fill a duffel bag with a machete, canned foods, and 3 changes of clothes. We go to Big 5 and BUY leather outfits with a credit card, assuming the store and civilization is still working. If not, we loot. Money won’t do anyone any good anyway. We then head to Costco (metal warehouse, no windows or doors) and immediately use all the fruit and vegetables for seeds to plant with potting soil on the roof. We also will eat only perishible foods until power goes out. This is a plan of outlasting.

Slow zombies with no expiration date (Resident Evil) - Same basic plan as above, only we also grab projectile weapons and TONS of ammo. We go to Costco and make a much more lasting garden on the roof, along with water catchment system, and work on thinning the herd until we can be sure to get a clear shot at getting out of town. We then go to the least populated area we can think of, and build walls. We rebuild a society that resembles 1800 farming communities with survivors we find.

Fast zombies (new dawn of the dead) with expiration date: we communicate as best we can and figure out where the most logical place to meet is (until the cell network goes down). We immediately leave town. The idea here is to stay on the move as much as possible and not to leave the confines of the car. We have 6 months until fuel goes bad, so we have to hope the zomies go bad first. If not, we hightail it to the frozen north where an undead is sure to freeze.

Fast Zombies with no expiration date: We hug one another, then put our heads between our knees and kiss our butts goodbye But seriously, this is a race. We get to the least populated area, and move as much as possible while trying to build a wall fast enough to keep them out.

Sorry, I guess I got sidetracked. We have contingencies for all these plans, and more plans for dead vrs. just plan rabid but alive zombies (like 28 Days Later). It’s ust sad that when we go almost anywhere, we end up scoping the place out for escape routes. It’s not like we’re nuts or anything we just have fun discussing it.

But yeah, anyway. After all that. The idea is; your friend (or yourself) has been bitten. They have not turned. Do you hasten their death, or not? And of course, all our plans involve making sure we find at least one priest to drag along with us. Even if everyone else in the world dies, we will be sure that the clergy is preserved.

 

[vera_dicere]

I didn’t find out about Max Brook’s guide until a few years ago. I had actually written an 83 page guide for my friends and family.

Me, I’m not goign to muck about with multiple guns, I’m more of a blunt object or knives sort of person. I plan on getting my hands on one of those firemen’s axe. Its heavy enough to survive multiple zombie bludgeonings and the business end will enable me to decapitate them, to ensure they do not rise again as super zombies, or according to Resident Evil “Crimson heads”.

I plan on carrying foodstuffs of the more powdered and highly sugared variety, or head to my nearest health store and stock up on protien bars. I was informing my friend who was a “canned food stuffs” person that there is the risk she may forget a can opener, or it fails her, they are also clunky, loud and heavy. Of course, in a tight spot, a sack full of baked beans cans would be devastating to a zombie’s cranium.

I plan on heading bush, especially since some governments may use nuclear weapons to attempt to stop the spread of the infection. Fighting off zombies will be hard enough without a bad dose of radiation poisioning. Of course, there is the risk of the infection spreading into wild life. But I’d rather fight off zombie opossums than radioactive zombie people.

Though, I would be excited to see me a mushroom cloud. (not so to see the flash).

From there I plan on finding an old mine or caving system that I can fortify and wait out the worst of it.

I also plan on stealing, yes, STEALING, a decent manual 4 wheel drive, and attaching chain saws on the doors, so I can plough through the mobs.

I will also STEAL some LPG canisters. If you’ve seen DOTD remake, you will know why.

 

[vera_dicere]

I think it woudl also be prudent, friends, to raid any hospital or pharamacy, yes the risk of zombie infection will be high, but if you can get yoru hands on antibotics and other needed medications, you will have something to barter in the post-zombie apocalypse.

Pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents will have value only as somethign to wipe your zombie kicking backside.

 

[Jermosh]

I am a Zombie head, I even tried out for the NOLD remake that was filmed near my home in PA.

 

[mardukm]

It is a MORTAL SIN to kill a pre-zombified zombie. I believe the new Dawn of the Dead gave us the proper procedure - you stay with your loved one until they die. Then blow their brains out. All the lore establishes the undisputed fact that Zombies must die first. I.e., Zombies are returners from the dead. So before that person has died a “natural” death, it would be murder.

This, of course, presupposes that the zombie plague has gone on long enough for the Church to have established guidelines on how long a zombie generally takes to return from the dead (see this thread for the connection between zombies and the keys of the kingdom: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6547909&postcount=77). I mean, if it turns out a zombie returns from death immediately, then we need to look for signs of imminent death, and we would need to blow their brains out even before they died. That’s admittedly a bit of a grey area rotfl. If there is some time between death and resurrection, then the only morally sure method would be to wait after they died for the de-braining.

Now, the TV-series “Supernatural” recently presented a new, horrifying possibility. In that show, which deals with the End-Times antics of two demon-hunting brothers, they come upon a town where dead people are coming back to life (i.e., zombies). However, these zombies are completely normal-looking, and normal-acting. It takes a while for their flesh-eating hunger to exhibit itself. Once one is lulled into believing everything is OK, these zombies unexpectedly revert to their cliche’d gastronomic activities!!!

Soooooooooooo… have YOU ever wondered if a loved one you haven’t seen for a long time is not in fact ALREADY a zombie?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[camerong]

It is a MORTAL SIN to kill a pre-zombified zombie. I believe the new Dawn of the Dead gave us the proper procedure - you stay with your loved one until they die. Then blow their brains out.

I must agree. There may be practical benefits to mercy killing a normal who is suffering terribly, say with a terminal illness–such as limiting that person’s pain–but this is forbidden because we are playing God by killing a human without justification. With a pre-zombified zombie, I think the idea is really the same. It would be helpful not to have to deal with a dead guy trying to eat your brains, but prematurely ending a normal human life would still be playing God. For example, the pre-zombified zombie could give one last confession, no?

I think the best route, as I’ve seen in some movies, would be to tie the dude up, so as to make it all easier. Then get a non-relative, non-spouse to do the deed. After all, in a zombie apocalypse, we’ve all got to get comfortable with double taps to the head, no?!

(So happy this thread exists. I’m a little surprised no party poopers have rained on this parade yet!)

 

[KostyaJMJ]

Do we even know enough about the z-virus to say that killing an infected human is justified other than in self-defense? I don’t see that we do. The Catholic Church teaches that all human life must be respected from conception to natural death. What makes us so sure that this doesn’t apply to zombified human life? It all depends if the zombies are merely humans infected with a terrible virus or if they really are the animated bodies of the dead here to feast on the living. Personally, I’d say a virus is a more likely explanation.

Luke 6:29
“And to him that striketh thee on the one cheek, offer also thy BRAINS. And him that taketh away from thee thy cloak, forbid not to take thy BRAINS”

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Theology of the Living Dead, by Jimmy Akin (Catholic Answers apologist)

:tiphat:

VC