Zombies and natural death

[mardukm]

I think the best route, as I’ve seen in some movies, would be to tie the dude up, so as to make it all easier. Then get a non-relative, non-spouse to do the deed. After all, in a zombie apocalypse, we’ve all got to get comfortable with double taps to the head, no?!

I’ve thought about that, and I couldn’t imagine tying up someone I loved. That would be just torture!

When I was 14 years old, I had this very vivid dream (ummm…nightmare) that I was a werewolf. So I begged my parents to lock me in the garage because I did not want to harm my loved ones. The funny thing, though, my garage had the lock release on the garage side (in real life), but I was hoping (in my dream) that I would be unable to operate the lock mechanism when I turned to a werewolf.

So I would lock them up somewhere, but not tie them up.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. Please, this is a ZOMBIE thread, not a WEREWOLF thread, so please don’t hijack it. … On the other hand, :newidea: maybe a werewolf scenario would be an even better moral conundrum than the zombie dilemma.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

You guys have made my morning! Funniest, most non-depressing, non-aggravating thread on CAF ever! Thanks so much to all of you!! :tiphat:

ETA: many thanks to Whiteacre Girl for the handy Guide to Surviving Zombie Attacks, I will keep that with me, just in case!

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

I must agree. There may be practical benefits to mercy killing a normal who is suffering terribly, say with a terminal illness–such as limiting that person’s pain–but this is forbidden because we are playing God by killing a human without justification. With a pre-zombified zombie, I think the idea is really the same. It would be helpful not to have to deal with a dead guy trying to eat your brains, but prematurely ending a normal human life would still be playing God. For example, the pre-zombified zombie could give one last confession, no?

I think the best route, as I’ve seen in some movies, would be to tie the dude up, so as to make it all easier. Then get a non-relative, non-spouse to do the deed. After all, in a zombie apocalypse, we’ve all got to get comfortable with double taps to the head, no?!

(So happy this thread exists. I’m a little surprised no party poopers have rained on this parade yet!)

I am too! I have delayed making it for so long because I have had less than favorable reception as to the idas of zombies on here before. I once did a piece of artwork that was a zombie, but people saw it from my homepage link and I got blasted pretty bad for it. I was forced to take it down for my sanity. I was worried that making such a thread wouldn’t be received very well…

Anyway, I agree that if there is every reasonable accomidation you can make with an infected to allow them to die naturally, that should be the case. The problem is, survivors will be few and far between. My husband and I are adamant about keeping it to just the two of us, if possible. (well, I want to bring a priest, but he says it’s not worth the risk of trying to save him. He could take care of himself just fine!)

The problem we run into here is we may not be able to restrain the victim who has not yet turned. Besides, accord to Max Brooks, the infected will generally slip into a coma before death. This coma is nearly indistinguishable from death as the heart rate slows. If we are unaware the person is in a coma and think they are dead, or wait for the coma before death, is killing them then a sin? You also have to wonder that since we won’t really know how long reanimation takes because chances are, you won’t see it. Well, if you’re a good survivor who knows how to stay alive. You won’t want to be in any situation that might put you in a place where you’ll need to see that. So you don’t know if it happens immediately upon death, a few hours after, if they go into a coma, or even if physical death will occur noticeably. There is always a chance we could have rage zombies from 28 days later who are very much alive.

also, mardukm

Soooooooooooo… have YOU ever wondered if a loved one you haven’t seen for a long time is not in fact ALREADY a zombie?

I don’t worry about my love ones, but some of the people I see walking around my college campus have me wondering at times… hehehe (think: Shaun of the Dead intro…)

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

You guys have made my morning! Funniest, most non-depressing, non-aggravating thread on CAF ever! Thanks so much to all of you!! :tiphat:

ETA: many thanks to Whiteacre Girl for the handy Guide to Surviving Zombie Attacks, I will keep that with me, just in case!

hehe! Glad we could help!!

I do think the guide needs to be revisited though. Someone brought up the idea of powdered food or protein bars. That is an excellent idea!!

 

[crazzeto]

That’s an interesting question, btw have you seen Zombieland? Talk about your fun Zombie movies. Direct answer to your question, ugh… I could see it both ways, though I guess I would say I would error against the suicide if you’re looking for the most “moral” view here with out further instruction from a priest or moral theologian…

Though I can see wanting to be shot… It’s a toughie, certainly I wouldn’t want to add to the Zombie numbers. I think the best approch can be found in Resident Evil 3 (the movie, not the game)… Or at least something similar to it… Drive a vehicle likely to explode wrecklessly through abunch of Zombies and take out as many of those suckers as you can and so your friends can escape the Zombie menace.

This has value in quite possibly falling under “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”, plus you get the satisfaction of squishing and exploding a large number of those undead uglies

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

That’s an interesting question, btw have you seen Zombieland? Talk about your fun Zombie movies. Direct answer to your question, ugh… I could see it both ways, though I guess I would say I would error against the suicide if you’re looking for the most “moral” view here with out further instruction from a priest or moral theologian…

Though I can see wanting to be shot… It’s a toughie, certainly I wouldn’t want to add to the Zombie numbers. I think the best approch can be found in Resident Evil 3 (the movie, not the game)… Or at least something similar to it… Drive a vehicle likely to explode wrecklessly through abunch of Zombies and take out as many of those suckers as you can and so your friends can escape the Zombie menace.

This has value in quite possibly falling under “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”, plus you get the satisfaction of squishing and exploding a large number of those undead uglies

Awesome!!!

And yes, Zombieland is a GREAT movie. I’ve seen it SOOOO many times. I love the unending quest for the elusive twinkie!

I also can’t help but wonder about the end of the new Dawn of the Dead. You’re standing there, watching your friends sail away. Zombies are closing in on you in a matter of time, but you are infected anyway and likely to die naturally before they get to you and thus - add to their numbers. Do you shoot yourself to not turn into a zombie? Or do you go run into the horde and allow yourself to be eaten alive. I saw how David’s character got it in Shaun of the Dead. Ugh! Would rather go in a blaze of glory than like that.

Hubby also brough up an interesting point abut how the church allows for executions for people who are deadly menace to society. Could this include an infected but not yet turned person? I argued that this would only apply to an actual zombie (which we seem to unanimous that dispatching an undead is certainly not a crime) since they are a menace. The infected only has the 99.999999999999999% potential.

We also thought that if you kill everyone who gets infected, you will never find that person who may be immune, and therefore never able to synthesize an immunization and save mankind!

 

[crazzeto]

If I was infected and my friends suggested sailing away I would only agree under the conditions that I get to save them by driving an explosive truck through zombies :dts:

 

[Verbum_Caro]

The difficulty with a death penalty approach is a) you can’t personally execute people, only the state can (but maybe there would be “no state” at this point), and b) we don’t execute people for crimes they will commit, but only for crimes they have committed.

Never kill a zombie before his time.

VC

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

If I was infected and my friends suggested sailing away I would only agree under the conditions that I get to save them by driving an explosive truck through zombies :dts:

!!!
Verbum Caro:

The difficulty with a death penalty approach is a) you can’t personally execute people, only the state can (but maybe there would be “no state” at this point), and b) we don’t execute people for crimes they will commit, but only for crimes they have committed.

Never kill a zombie before his time.

VC

Yeah, that’s what I was thinking too.

 

[willofgods]

We also thought that if you kill everyone who gets infected, you will never find that person who may be immune, and therefore never able to synthesize an immunization and save mankind!

Good point. In “mercy killing” of loved ones before they turn, the prospect of a cure (that our Good Lord would surely eventually give us) must be accounted for. If we take our family/friends out of commission on Tuesday, and on Wednesday they come up with the cure…o woe is me!

That being said, let us turn once again to the CCC for an answer:

2282 …] Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.
Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

I’d feel anguish if I knew I was going to eat brains! So suicide and co-operation in the suicide of a zombie-injured person may be allowed…

Also,

2288 Life and physical health are precious gifts entrusted to us by God. We must take reasonable care of them, taking into account the needs of others and the common good.
Concern for the health of its citizens requires that society help in the attainment of living-conditions that allow them to grow and reach maturity: food and clothing, housing, health care, basic education, employment, and social assistance.

If we know someone is about to turn, concern for the health of other citizens may be more important than the possibility that this individual can be cured…

 

[Verbum_Caro]

And then there is the problem of self-defense (or defense of another). One of the conditions for that has to be “imminent” harm, not just foreseen harm. You can’t defend against someone you think might hurt you eventually.

The good thing about zombies, though is that they pretty much are trying to kill you the moment they see you.

But, this doesn’t apply to people before they turn into zombies.

VC

 

[mardukm]

Has anyone thought that maybe becoming a zombie is an alternative to Purgatory.

As long as I’m locked up, maybe that would be the way to go (there I go again with the “being locked up” fetish).

Blessings

P.S. Great point on the “possible cure” rationale. It was certainly tried in House of the Dead 2 and 28 Days Later.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Okay, so I can agree that we can’t kill someone else who has become infected (as in the case of 28 days later) but what about killing oneself to stop themselves from turning into a bloodthirsty zombie? Could that fall under “lying one’s life down for his friends”?

I mean, say you are totally alone and pose no imminent harm to anyone, and there is no one to finish you after you naturally pass. Is it wrong to shoot yourself as you feel yourself expiring so ensure that you dont become a zombie and potentially kill a passer-by hours, days, weeks, or even months later?

 

[vera_dicere]

The thing with it being a mortal sin to kill an infected, not yet turned individual I think errs slightly. I’d view it as a self defence, even if they were in no condition to harm you.

Because, consider, you and your group are locked in a house, quietly, waiting for the mob of zombies to finish with your neighbour and move on. You’ve been running on twinkies, cola, adreniline and very little sleep for the past week or so. One of your number has been bitten, they have asked that you shoot them when they turn.

What if they turn when you’ve all sucumbed to exhaustion and fallen asleep?

Sure, the screams of one or two of your group as they’re devoured by your former companion will wake you, but what if it’s YOUR screams that wake the group?

You are unable to move the infected into another room to wait for them to turn. Not every civilian residence has a room like DOTD to put the pre-turned into. And even if you did put them into another room, their screams of agony as they died, or the banging they woudl make when they had turned could alert the other zombies!

I can see myself committing a raft of mortal sins in a zombie outbreak, and probably quite unashamedly too. My plan is to repent at the last minute before I die.

Of course, God is a God of mercy, I’d hope he’d understand our zombie blood lust.

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

The thing with it being a mortal sin to kill an infected, not yet turned individual I think errs slightly. I’d view it as a self defence, even if they were in no condition to harm you.

Because, consider, you and your group are locked in a house, quietly, waiting for the mob of zombies to finish with your neighbour and move on. You’ve been running on twinkies, cola, adreniline and very little sleep for the past week or so. One of your number has been bitten, they have asked that you shoot them when they turn.

What if they turn when you’ve all sucumbed to exhaustion and fallen asleep?

Sure, the screams of one or two of your group as they’re devoured by your former companion will wake you, but what if it’s YOUR screams that wake the group?

You are unable to move the infected into another room to wait for them to turn. Not every civilian residence has a room like DOTD to put the pre-turned into. And even if you did put them into another room, their screams of agony as they died, or the banging they woudl make when they had turned could alert the other zombies!

I can see myself committing a raft of mortal sins in a zombie outbreak, and probably quite unashamedly too. My plan is to repent at the last minute before I die.

Of course, God is a God of mercy, I’d hope he’d understand our zombie blood lust.

Something this thread is really making me wonder is the idea of “every reasonable effort.” I am wondering in these cases if one has to make every reasonable effort to do things in the best possible way to respect human life. But desperate times call for desperate measures.

Lets take for example the reconstuction period after. What happens if you have one man and three women who survive. After 10 years there are no other survivors discovered. Does this mean that he can only take one as his intended wife? Especially since they won’t be considered married until they find a priest and a standing catholic church. What is to become of the other two women? What happens with genetic diversity, and whats more, what of the offspring and repopulation?

I really should start a whole new thread called “Morality in the post-zombie world” or something LOL

 

[vera_dicere]

I really should start a whole new thread called “Morality in the post-zombie world” or something LOL

Absolutely!!

I often wonder, given the kinds of peopel politicans are, will they be safely hidden in underground bunkers, when the worst is over, will the survivors happily accept their non-zombie time leaders? Will there be some kind of election, or will the non-zombie time leaders turn into despots?

And what of the Pope? What if the holy father and his cardinals are killed? What would happen to teh Church? Would the highest ranked clergy man alive become the Pope by default? What if that clergy man is a liberal? What if all the good Catholics have died?

Will our Church end up a mess?

Perhaps in the post zombie world, the surviving women could gestate any surviving embryos that are in IVF storage facilities, that way we’d get a larger genetic diversity than just three women and one men or something.

 

[willofgods]

And what of the Pope? What if the holy father and his cardinals are killed? …] Will our Church end up a mess?

If anyone is going to be protected, it’s the Pope. I’d be there at the front lines! And the Church has gone through and come out of serious debacles in the past (i.e., the bubonic plague!) God would keep His Church alive and kicking!

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

If anyone is going to be protected, it’s the Pope. I’d be there at the front lines! And the Church has gone through and come out of serious debacles in the past (i.e., the bubonic plague!) God would keep His Church alive and kicking!

I was just about to say something along these lines. God would protect his church. He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. I think zombies would easily qualify as hell on Earth!!

I liked the idea of the women incubating the frozen fertilized eggs. The only issue is, what if they have all gone bad because the power was knocked out?

 

[vera_dicere]

I was just about to say something along these lines. God would protect his church. He said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. I think zombies would easily qualify as hell on Earth!!

My favourite part of DOTD is when that black minister is on TV.

“When there is no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the earth!!”

I liked the idea of the women incubating the frozen fertilized eggs. The only issue is, what if they have all gone bad because the power was knocked out?

Maybe some facilities, especially the ones that cater to the rich and infamous, that they have back up generators?

Who knows?

As a side note, and a morbidly creepy one at that, am I the only Catholic who’s fantasized about aborted foetuses turning into zombies and devouring the abortionists?

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

My favourite part of DOTD is when that black minister is on TV.

“When there is no more room in Hell, the dead will walk the earth!!”

It’s amazing how you read my mind…

Maybe some facilities, especially the ones that cater to the rich and infamous, that they have back up generators?

Who knows?

hmmm…maybe.

As a side note, and a morbidly creepy one at that, am I the only Catholic who’s fantasized about aborted foetuses turning into zombies and devouring the abortionists?

Hmmm. I can personally say that I have not, since the aborted unborn will have expired without a chance for infection, but I can see how the desire for them to avenge the crimes committed against them seems almost ironic.

But yeah, it is creepy…Just like that scene in DOTD with the baby…gets me every time. Ugh.