Zygotes and heaven?

[Oscarthecat]

Not to mention there are no “forms” in heaven. It’s purely spiritual and therefore takes up no space. But then I realize in saying that, it would lead to more questions. But I gotta go soon too. Time for Mass.

But before I go: there will be no such thing as zygotes, embryos, fetal mass, etc. There will only be humans. Formless humans, but humans nonetheless. The New Earth will be a different story I suppose, but for our particular discussion, spiritual things are formless and take up no space and do not exist in time.

Things have to be put in human terms in order for us to understand, therefore there is no humanly possible way to understand the purely spiritual world until we get there. Rest assured, one day you will understand.

Our humanity is, in part, defined by our existence as unified physical and spiritual beings. By contrast, Angels are purely spiritual beings who do not have corporeal bodies.

We, as Catholics, believe that we will be resurrected- that our bodies will be resurrected, and glorified together with our spirits, such that we will live eternally as fully human beings- both body and soul.

What you’re referring to, in regard to our existence in Heaven as being purely ethereal and without form, is not Catholic teaching. It more closely reflects a core belief of the various Gnostic heresies- that our humanity can be fully realized only as ethereal beings, and that our physical nature is nothing more than a consequence of the fall and a temptation for sin.

Jesus’ Ascension and Mary’s Assumption simply don’t make sense unless one has faith in the resurrection of the body.

Notice I used the word “ethereal” instead of “spiritual” above. That’s because the phrase “spiritual body” is not a perfect translation from the original greek to modern english. The phrase doesn’t refer to “spirit” as we understand it today to mean “non-corporeal,” nor does it really refer to what we refer to as the “soul.” Instead, “spirit” referred to that which was incorruptible…as opposed to matter, which is corruptible. So for a Church Father to say that we will have “spiritual bodies” is more correctly translated as “incorruptible bodies.” Or, in more familiar language, glorified bodies.

For more on this, follow this link
catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp

 

[Snerticus]

Precisely why I said I was not an expert and that I’m probaby wrong on some things.

Jesus’ ascension and Mary’s assumption are two different things.

But since you are certainly more of an expert than I am, please by all means answer the OP in his question rather than critique my answer (I’m not being facetious here, I know you are more learned than I in the faith). I’d rather hear an anwser to the OP from someone with a theological background than a simple Catholic with none. I never claimed to be a theologian or scholar, and your answer to the OP would help me understand my own faith’s teachings better. I always assumed that until the general resurrection we existed in heaven as spiritual souls.

I certainly am willing to hear a critique of my answer, though perhaps in a different thread. For now, I am concerned with the OP and your views on the original question.

Which brings me to the angels - at one point they were given free will and after that point they were “stuck” in their decisions (so to speak - not really the way I want to express it, but at this point its the best I can do). How did these angels exist when they had free will? Where they always a pure spiritual being? This of course can be asked on another thread. I’ll work on it.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[Snerticus]

Well, I started a new thread to discuss my above issue. But please answer in your own terms the question of the OP.

Thanks,
Snert

 

[mmm1]

In the zygote, the biological identity of the human person is already entirely constituted. The program is entirely fixed as to what this living being will become if its life is allowed to continue. God, in his omniscience, would be able to determine the form which the body is ultimately to take.

Concerning salvation, the Church teaches that all those who perish still retaining the stain of original sin will descend into hell, but will not necessarily suffer active punishment if they are not guilty of personal sin. Some (not me) argue that original sin is remitted in some extraordinary way which allows unbaptized infants and others to be saved. This is a subject open to discussion.

I personally think that this more recent opinion effectively neutralizes the faith. The OP is right in saying that everyone would then be better off having died as a zygote. Abortion would become a means of salvation, like some sort of perverted sacrament.

I must admit, I have never heard of this view of salvation of unborn children. In the interest of full disclosure, as the mother of a precious unborn baby I was shocked & a little horrified. I posted yesterday, & stated I had heard in the last year or 2 the Church might be re-thinking their stance on Limbo. I had heard it was now widely held the children go to heaven, but that such a change requires further study.

However, I did find this in the Catechism:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused Him to say, “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Even if the unborn are not suffering the flames of hell, the separation from God is a catastrophic fate. I can not imagine God, “who desires that all men be saved” would do such a thing. I must be misinterpreting your last paragraph. God shows mercy & remits sins for the born countless times a minute. Of course people, like the OP may misunderstand & think it is better or safer to die in a pre-born developmental stage, but we know that is only the case if God willed such a brief time for that life. It serves no one, least of all the pre-born child, to circumvent God’s plan & end a life. (I am answering the OP here, I know you are not advocating abortion)

I occasionally have consoled myself that at least my child is safe in heaven, but this was God’s decision. I trust in God that He desperately wants a relationship with my other children, & I entrust them to His mercy as well. Thank heaven we’re all safe, as He wants us all with Him

 

[phantasm]

Phantasm, I don’t need to look into scripture more.

Oh goodness, Snerticus, you spend more time reminding me that I’m not a Catholic, instead of actually learning what it is your Bible and Church teaches about heaven.

You are actually off the mark in your responses. If you cannot provide anything other than a reminder that I have in fact left your Church, then please abstain.

I am not interested in your speculation, but rather, I am quite interested in what your Church actually teaches.

 

[phantasm]

He wants us all with Him

It is abundantly clear that the Christian God does not in fact want everyone with him.

Your God is said to be omniscient.

This God creates life, knowing full well that said life will reject Him and end up spending all of eternity in hell.

God willingly creates this life, knowing that this life’s fate is destined for hell. I remind you, God is said to be omniscient.

If God wanted everyone with Him in heaven, he would not create life, knowing full well that said life is destined for hell. ( Omniscience)

His very own son, Jesus Christ even said that most people will not enter heaven, but only a few.

Jesus said " How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."

Your very own God clearly indicated that only a few people will make it to heaven. This is the only plan that the creator of the universe has given mankind and it is a plan, by his very own admission, that most will end up in hell.

How on earth can you possibly believe that God wants everyone in heaven, when he knows most will end up in hell?

Unless Jesus was lying or mistaken?

To my OP…it seems that heaven would be populated with a majority of zygotes and a small minority of fully formed humans.

 

[Snerticus]

Oh goodness, Snerticus, you spend more time reminding me that I’m not a Catholic, instead of actually learning what it is your Bible and Church teaches about heaven.

You are actually off the mark in your responses. If you cannot provide anything other than a reminder that I have in fact left your Church, then please abstain.

I am not interested in your speculation, but rather, I am quite interested in what your Church actually teaches.

Well then, if that is your true goal, then I suggest perusing the Catechism of the Catholic Church instead of asking mostly non-experts what the Church teaches. From what I can gather about what I’ve stated in my previous posts, I only mentioned a fraction of the time about your faith or lack thereof. I’ve tried to explain what I believed about your scenario, and obviously I’m on the right track, although admittedly I’m not 100% about it. That less than perfect score doesn’t bother me either, as I’m always learning. As all Catholics are always learning.

If you neglect to read what I’ve already written about your zygote scenario and instead only focus on the few sentences about yourself, then that’s certainly not my problem. I told you I don’t have an issue with your zygote scenario. You obviously do. In trying to explain it to you, you write off the stuff I said about spirituality and then go and tell me I don’t know my faith. If you don’t know my faith, who are you to tell me I don’t?**

So I guess in essence, no matter what a Catholic says here, you’re just not going to believe it. If someone comes here and tries to explain in earnest what you want, you’ll dismiss them anyway as not knowing their faith. Whatever the case, I think you’re just baiting and don’t deserve anymore responses from me or anyone else.

 

[phantasm]

I told you I don’t have an issue with your zygote scenario.

How could you have a problem with something if you refuse to actually think rationally about it?

You don’t have a problem with my scenario, yet you admit you haven’t a clue as to what your Church actually professes?

Blind faith, that’s all you had to say and I would have been done with you.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

What happens to Zygotes is His will.

 

[phantasm]

What happens to Zygotes is His will.

Then obviously, you must agree that abortion is Gods will. The Bible clearly states that God chooses the exact moment when we will die.

**Job 14:5

‘You know the number of his months; you have fixed the limit which he cannot pass.’**

This bit of scripture clearly states that God determines exactly when a person is to die, as God sets precisely the time a person has to live. This time that a person is given, your Bible clearly states that man cannot surpass.

So, if God has decided that a zygote is going to have 7 days to live, then the zygote will die, then it is Gods will that the zygote dies.

If the zygote dies because a woman had an abortion, then obviously, this woman is carrying out Gods will. The zygote has to die at that precise moment in time, as God has willed it. If there is no abortion, the zygote will grow into a fully developed baby, which God has decided will not happen.

If God willed there to be no abortion, then quite simply, there would be no abortion. God would use his omnipotence to protect the unborn baby and God would choose a different time for the zygote ( person) to die.

Fascinating stuff. God does work in mysterious ways.

 

[cerad]

Then obviously, you must agree that abortion is Gods will. The Bible clearly states that God chooses the exact moment when we will die.

**Job 14:5

‘You know the number of his months; you have fixed the limit which he cannot pass.’**

This bit of scripture clearly states that God determines exactly when a person is to die, as God sets precisely the time a person has to live. This time that a person is given, your Bible clearly states that man cannot surpass.

Nope nope nope. That is old testament stuff which Jesus fulfilled and thus can be dismissed as desired.

 

[phantasm]

Nope nope nope. That is old testament stuff which Jesus fulfilled and thus can be dismissed as desired.

Yep yep yep.

Maybe you should read your most Holy Bible.

Matthew 5:18:19

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Must be nice to pick and choose what you like out of the Bible and ignore all the nasty bits!

 

[Dauphin]

Nope nope nope. That is old testament stuff which Jesus fulfilled and thus can be dismissed as desired.

No, this describes something essential to belief in God. It’s absolutely certain that everything which occurs is at the very least in accord with the passive will of God (ie. He permits it).

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

It is you who twist the words into saying that abortion is God’s will. Abortion of any kind in intrinsically evil. God does not will evil or Lies. Evil and Lies reside outside the Truth. He who is Truth cannot be deceived nor deceives. God permits abortions, He does not will them.

 

[John7]

 

[Dauphin]

Yep yep yep.

Maybe you should read your most Holy Bible.

Matthew 5:18:19

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Must be nice to pick and choose what you like out of the Bible and ignore all the nasty bits!

There’s nothing nasty about that. The essential key to understanding the Church’s teaching on this matter is the Christ Himself is the Law Incarnate. He fulfills the Law in His own person.

Therefore, nothing of the Law is lost in communion with Christ.

It’s also necessary to recognize that the Old Testament contains many covenants. Not all the specific prescriptions of every covenant were meant to endure. Christ presents and affirms the essential nucleus of the Law, even while abrogating many specific prescriptions (which is exactly what He proceeds to do directly after the passage you quoted - read on).

 

[phantasm]

God permits abortions, He does not will them.

Yet your claim your God determines the exact moment a person is to die. If a zygote is to die within 10 days of coming into existence, then clearly the abortion is a fulfillment of Gods will.

If there was no abortion, then there would be death of the zygote, therefor Gods will would not be carried out.

The woman getting the abortion must be carrying out Gods will in that the Zygote will be killed at a precise moment in time, as determined by God.

 

[cerad]

Yep yep yep.

Maybe you should read your most Holy Bible.

Matthew 5:18:19

Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Must be nice to pick and choose what you like out of the Bible and ignore all the nasty bits!

Job 14:5 is not a commandment. And it is nice to have a choice.

 

[Dauphin]

Yet your claim your God determines the exact moment a person is to die. If a zygote is to die within 10 days of coming into existence, then clearly the abortion is a fulfillment of Gods will.

If there was no abortion, then there would be death of the zygote, therefor Gods will would not be carried out.

The woman getting the abortion must be carrying out Gods will in that the Zygote will be killed at a precise moment in time, as determined by God.

God deliberately preserves human freedom of will. He passively wills (ie. permits) abortion to take place, but ultimately orders all things according to his providence. It’s very necessary to distinguish between active and passive will.

The question which necessary follows this is “Why does a good God permit evil?”. The answer is extremely simple. God permits evil in order to draw from it a greater good. He presented this mystery in the clearest way possible on the cross. Christ’s crucifixion was both the greatest evil and the greatest good. Simply because we don’t see or understand the good that God is able to draw from evil doesn’t mean it isn’t there. We have to recognize that we’re very limited beings; the ways of God are deeply mysterious, like quantum physics is mysterious to a squirrel. Just because the squirrel doesn’t understand quantum physics doesn’t mean it’s untrue.

Gladly, God has provided us with this highest of revelations (the cross) in order to more effectively contemplate the mystery of suffering and evil.

 

[kristie_m]

I must admit, I have never heard of this view of salvation of unborn children. In the interest of full disclosure, as the mother of a precious unborn baby I was shocked & a little horrified. I posted yesterday, & stated I had heard in the last year or 2 the Church might be re-thinking their stance on Limbo. I had heard it was now widely held the children go to heaven, but that such a change requires further study.

However, I did find this in the Catechism:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused Him to say, “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Even if the unborn are not suffering the flames of hell, the separation from God is a catastrophic fate. I can not imagine God, “who desires that all men be saved” would do such a thing. I must be misinterpreting your last paragraph. God shows mercy & remits sins for the born countless times a minute. Of course people, like the OP may misunderstand & think it is better or safer to die in a pre-born developmental stage, but we know that is only the case if God willed such a brief time for that life. It serves no one, least of all the pre-born child, to circumvent God’s plan & end a life. (I am answering the OP here, I know you are not advocating abortion)

I occasionally have consoled myself that at least my child is safe in heaven, but this was God’s decision. I trust in God that He desperately wants a relationship with my other children, & I entrust them to His mercy as well. Thank heaven we’re all safe, as He wants us all with Him

I too, have precious little ones in Heaven. And yes, that is how I will consider their state, as our God is not only just, but full of mercy and compassion. I cannot imagine Him denying His presence to one who has never had the opportunity to sin.

That said, it is my impression of “limbo” that it was never an official teaching, but rather one acceptable belief.