Zygotes and heaven?

[phantasm]

Job 14:5 is not a commandment. And it is nice to have a choice.

You sound like a left wing liberal anything goes progressive unitarian Christian!


Anyway, your arguing against a fundamental Christian belief, in that God does actually determine when a person is to die.

Your going to have to do better than ’ the old testament doesn’t apply anymore’ and then when I shatter your argument, you come back with, well that bit of scripture isn’t a commandment. ( That only shows that you know very little about the Bible, or of Christian belief) as you are so quick to alter your argument.

You actually need to provide a tangible argument as to why you are one of the few people that argues that the Judeo Christian God has no power over the time of our deaths.

If not, then I am done with your trolling.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

You sound like a left wing liberal anything goes progressive unitarian Christian!


Anyway, your arguing against a fundamental Christian belief, in that God does actually determine when a person is to die.

Your going to have to do better than ’ the old testament doesn’t apply anymore’ and then when I shatter your argument, you come back with, well that bit of scripture isn’t a commandment. ( That only shows that you know very little about the Bible, or of Christian belief) as you are so quick to alter your argument.

You actually need to provide a tangible argument as to why you are one of the few people that argues that the Judeo Christian God has no power over the time of our deaths.

If not, then I am done with your trolling.

I disagree with the Catholic Church if they think that zygotes have souls. Until a child is born it has the potential of having a soul, but before it is born I don’t think it could actually have a soul. That doesn’t mean that babies should be unnaturally aborted, because it COULD become a human being with a soul.

But I agree with you, people are getting a little crazy if they think that an naturally aborted fetus has a soul. I may be a cafeteria Catholic, but I can’t swallow that one!!

 

[Dauphin]

I disagree with the Catholic Church if they think that zygotes have souls. Until a child is born it has the potential of having a soul, but before it is born I don’t think it could actually have a soul. That doesn’t mean that babies should be unnaturally aborted, because it COULD become a human being with a soul.

But I agree with you, people are getting a little crazy if they think that an naturally aborted fetus has a soul. I may be a cafeteria Catholic, but I can’t swallow that one!!

The Church teaches dogmatically that every human being is endowed with a soul from the instant of its conception. You can’t call yourself Catholic if you don’t believe this. There are no “soul-less” human beings.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The Church teaches dogmatically that every human being is endowed with a soul from the instant of its conception. You can’t call yourself Catholic if you don’t believe this. There are no “soul-less” human beings.

well I call myself a Catholic, too bad.

 

[phantasm]

Christ’s crucifixion was both the greatest evil and the greatest good.

Many Catholics or Protestant Christians refuse to believe that I was a Roman Catholic until my early 30’s and for the last 6 years, by all accounts, a devout Roman Catholic.

Now, even when I was a man of faith, I had trouble buying into Christs ultimate sacrifice, and for this simple reason.

’ Big deal, Jesus new that he was the son of God and therefor a God himself. He had to go through a few hours of pain and suffering, big deal, HE IS A GOD’

Your are a sad man, if you believe that a Gods crucifixion is a greater evil than the sexual abuse and eventual murder of a child, which, unfortunately, I must remind you, happens everyday, multiple times, on this earth.

Even sadder if you believe a Gods crucifixion is a greater evil than the Jewish Holocaust.

If this is all real, then get over it already, so some omnipotent God allowed for his omnipotent son to experience human pain for a few minutes and artificially die for a few days to make you feel good about the horrors that take place in the world.

Yeah, sure, that’s the best plan the creator of the Universe could come up with, a blood sacrifice, which of course would greatly satisfy bronze age man!!

 

[Leopard]

well I call myself a Catholic, too bad.

You can call yourself a jelly doughnut if you want to, but saying so doesn’t make it so.

I think the previous poster’s point is that if one calls himself a Catholic, that person is implying that he accepts everything that the Catholic Church requires her faithful to believe. So that if one who calls himself a Catholic does not accept something that the Catholic Church requires her faithful to believe, that person is being less than completely honest.

 

[phantasm]

well I call myself a Catholic, too bad.

Yes, just like how an unrepentant practicing homosexual, or woman who has an abortion, or man who has affairs outside his marriage, calls themselves Catholic.

It’s all quite pathetic now isn’t it?

Yes it really is. I’d have a lot more respect for the RC if the Pope simply came out one day and rejected all of the wishy washy cafeteria Catholics.

Either you subscribe to the teachings and are a Catholic or you reject the teachings, consider yourself a Catholic, yet clearly, are a confused liberal protestant.

 

[phantasm]

. Until a child is born it has the potential of having a soul, but before it is born I don’t think it could actually have a soul.

You, I dare say, have to do some very serious thinking as to why you consider yourself a Catholic.

I, a former Roman Catholic who now rejects Christ, denies the existence of God and is an Atheist, find your position weak, pathetic and without merit.

You sit there and tell us that you believe in souls, yet you do not believe that a baby, one minute before it exits the womb, does not, as of yet, have a soul? All because, said child, is yet unborn.

I have one question for you…

Are you certain that you are even a Christian, let alone a Catholic? If you consider yourself a Catholic, I am certain, you are as much a Catholic as I am.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I disagree with the Catholic Church if they think that zygotes have souls. Until a child is born it has the potential of having a soul, but before it is born I don’t think it could actually have a soul. That doesn’t mean that babies should be unnaturally aborted, because it COULD become a human being with a soul.

But I agree with you, people are getting a little crazy if they think that an naturally aborted fetus has a soul. I may be a cafeteria Catholic, but I can’t swallow that one!!

I think where you run into trouble with your understanding is that you might not understand what a “soul” actually is.

The Church teaches that the soul is the animating principle of life- everything that is living has a soul. Human beings have an immortal soul, animals and other life have mortal souls.

Something that is alive must, by the very fact that it is alive, have a soul.
Therefore, if you believe that unborn humans don’t have souls, then you must also believe that human beings are not alive until they are born.

This isn’t something that you can choose to believe or not believe and still consider yourself a member of the Roman Catholic Church.

It is one thing to admit that a person may not understand this concept, because it isn’t an easy thing to wrap one’s head around. Fortunately, God does not expect us to understand everything He has revealed to us, but He does ask us to accept and believe.

It is another thing entirely, however, to deliberately reject this belief in the full knowledge that you are in conflict with the Church’s teaching.

Furthermore, in regard to the OP…we cannot possibly understand the fullness of how God exercises His Divine Mercy, we can only have hope and faith that God’s Divine Mercy is bestowed on all people, no matter how small.

 

[Dauphin]

Many Catholics or Protestant Christians refuse to believe that I was a Roman Catholic until my early 30’s and for the last 6 years, by all accounts, a devout Roman Catholic.

Now, even when I was a man of faith, I had trouble buying into Christs ultimate sacrifice, and for this simple reason.

’ Big deal, Jesus new that he was the son of God and therefor a God himself. He had to go through a few hours of pain and suffering, big deal, HE IS A GOD’

Your are a sad man, if you believe that a Gods crucifixion is a greater evil than the sexual abuse and eventual murder of a child, which, unfortunately, I must remind you, happens everyday, multiple times, on this earth.

Even sadder if you believe a Gods crucifixion is a greater evil than the Jewish Holocaust.

If this is all real, then get over it already, so some omnipotent God allowed for his omnipotent son to experience human pain for a few minutes and artificially die for a few days to make you feel good about the horrors that take place in the world.

Yeah, sure, that’s the best plan the creator of the Universe could come up with, a blood sacrifice, which of course would greatly satisfy bronze age man!!

For God to suffer and die is a far greater evil than sexual abuse or the Shoah, because these things only affect temporal human life and earthly well-being. God is supreme. Good and evil can only be objectively understood in relation to him and whether it offends against His law. Sin is principally an act against God, not against man.

That you say the death and resurrection of Christ was something “artificial”, or is simply meant to make us “feel good” is a profound misunderstanding of the pascal mystery. Christ’s bodily resurrection is profoundly real, and is the only assurance we have that death has no hold. Fundamentally, the resurrection is an affirmation of that dignity which God wills us to have. We’re not just bags of meat destined for oblivion or a hole in the ground, but we will be raised by being made one with the Christ who has conquered death.

 

[qui_est_ce]

For God to suffer and die is a far greater evil than sexual abuse or the Shoah, because these things only affect temporal human life and earthly well-being. God is supreme. Good and evil can only be objectively understood in relation to him and whether it offends against His law. Sin is principally an act against God, not against man.

That you say the death and resurrection of Christ was something “artificial”, or is simply meant to make us “feel good” is a profound misunderstanding of the pascal mystery. Christ’s bodily resurrection is profoundly real, and is the only assurance we have that death has no hold. Fundamentally, the resurrection is an affirmation of that dignity which God wills us to have. We’re not just bags of meat destined for oblivion or a hole in the ground, but we will be raised by being made one with the Christ who has conquered death.

That is an awesome post!

 

[phantasm]

We’re not just bags of meat destined for oblivion or a hole in the ground, but we will be raised by being made one with the Christ who has conquered death.

If this is all true, then you forget the words of Christ. Most people are destined for eternal separation from God ( Hell) and only a small handful of people are going to heaven.

If this is all true, it is Gods will that the majority of his children end up in hell.

If it wasn’t his will, it would not be so, yet it is, Christ said as much.

At my death, I can look forward to non-existence or eternal separation from God. If it is the latter, at least I will be fulfilling a part of Gods grand plan.

If am I separated from God for eternity, then no matter, I have never known him here and have gotten used to his complete absence from this planet. ( If he is real)

 

[Dauphin]

If this is all true, then you forget the words of Christ. Most people are destined for eternal separation from God ( Hell) and only a small handful of people are going to heaven.

If this is all true, it is Gods will that the majority of his children end up in hell.

If it wasn’t his will, it would not be so, yet it is, Christ said as much.

You forget that God preserves human freedom of will. Although he figures free human acts into his providential design, this does not mean that he specifically actively wills them.

 

[KDB]

I think the answer to the Zygote in Heaven thing is obvious.
They are little cheruby things that just flap around and tickle each other.

In all seriousness (well…) everyone seems to assume a well developed and full-throttle mind is as necessary in Heaven as it is here. Sure, some of us might debate for eternity. Others might just flap around and tickle each other.

 

[jmcrae]

I disagree with the Catholic Church if they think that zygotes have souls. Until a child is born it has the potential of having a soul, but before it is born I don’t think it could actually have a soul.

The soul is not the intellect. The soul is the life of the body. Every living thing has a soul. Human beings have rational, eternal souls. Other beings have souls that only exist while they are alive.

Fetuses, and even zygotes, certainly have life in their bodies - they swim, they dance, they sleep and wake, they seek out food, they grow and develop - and since they are made entirely of human DNA, their souls are, therefore, human souls.

 

[phantasm]

You forget that God preserves human freedom of will. Although he figures free human acts into his providential design, this does not mean that he specifically actively wills them.

You forget that God is omniscient and that he created me, knowing full well that I would turn from him, reject his Church and his son Jesus.

Yet, knowing all of this and knowing that at my death, I will spend eternity separated from him in hell, he chose to create me anyway.

How loving and wonderful of your Lord.

Most Christians haven’t a clue as to what omniscience entails, as it has NOTHING to do with free will.

It means that God knows what I am going to do with my free will, before I even do it. So, God knew a trillion trillion trillion X a trillion years ago that I would reject him and end up in hell, but God created me anyway.

I’m probably still going to hear from some dense Christian who’ll ignore everything I’ve written and simply respond with their favourite mantra ’ God gives you the choice, free will’

 

[phantasm]

The soul is the life of the body. Every living thing has a soul.

Just to add, by faith you believe this. There is no evidence that such a thing exists.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The soul is not the intellect. The soul is the life of the body. Every living thing has a soul. Human beings have rational, eternal souls. Other beings have souls that only exist while they are alive.

Fetuses, and even zygotes, certainly have life in their bodies - they swim, they dance, they sleep and wake, they seek out food, they grow and develop - and since they are made entirely of human DNA, their souls are, therefore, human souls.

Okay, I think I spoke too rashly. Actually I do believe that life starts at conception. But there are a lot of zygotes that abort spontaneously, without medical intervention, before 3 months, especially for first time pregnacies. I know I lost my first at 3 months, and it really didn’t seem to be a baby, just a lot of blood and tissue. So it’s kind of a difficult issue. I do believe humans have souls though. And I don’t think that women should have medical abortions, unless there are serious circumstances that warrant them.

 

[Leopard]

Just to add, by faith you believe this. There is no evidence that such a thing exists.

What? Life? Of course there is.

The soul has been defined as the life of the body (S=L)
There is evidence that the life of the body exists.
Therefore, by definition, there is evidence that the soul exists.

Now as to the nature of the soul, especially the supernatural nature of the human soul, that is something we do indeed accept as an article of faith.

 

[Leopard]

Okay, I think I spoke too rashly. Actually I do believe that life starts at conception. But there are a lot of zygotes that abort spontaneously, without medical intervention, before 3 months, especially for first time pregnacies. I know I lost my first at 3 months, and it really didn’t seem to be a baby, just a lot of blood and tissue. So it’s kind of a difficult issue. I do believe humans have souls though. And I don’t think that women should have medical abortions, unless there are serious circumstances that warrant them.

You’re right, it is a difficult issue. My wife and I have gone through the pain of miscarriage several times. But I hope you will be able to accept (in the immortal words of Horton the Elephant), that a person’s a person, no matter how small.

It doesn’t seem like a baby because we have not had the experience of knowing these children. But we may look forward in hope to someday seeing and knowing in Heaven the children we never knew on Earth. That’s a very comforting thought for me.