“Know them by their fruit”

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grampben said:
Well I’m Presbyterian Church of Ireland, which is conservative by global standards.I’m thinking of leaving the Presbyterians anyway lol. Presbyterian Church USA perhaps are more pro gay (not sure about gay marriage though). I would say the best thing to do is look up the site of whatever denomination you’re thinking of.
This might help:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion
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Hello grampben, I went to the link that you provided and here it what I discovered.

The Roman Catholic Church –
…opposes procedures whose purpose is to destroy a fetus. The Church today firmly holds that “the first right of the human person is his life” and that life is assumed to begin at fertilization.

Protestant -

… on abortion vary considerably…

Christian fundamentalist -

“unanimously condemn abortion”
“Mainstream” Protestants

“take more nuanced positions, but are generally pro-choice”
Note: The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded in 1967 as the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion and then later as the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR). The current name was chosen in 1993.
Other denominations belong to the National Pro-Life Religious Council[24] including the –

(Pro-Life)
Lutheran** Church** - Missouri Synod
Charismatic Episcopal Church.

Pro-life

Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox
Lutheran** Church** - Missouri Synod
Charismatic Episcopal Church.
Anglican Church
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Wisconsin** Evangelical Lutheran Synod**
Wesleyan/Methodist **
Church of the Nazarene **
Wesleyan Church** **
Christian fundamentalist
Presbyterian Church of America (PCA)

Pro-Abortion
Episcopal Church
Presbyterian Church (USA) (PCUSA)
United Church of Christ
United Methodist Church
Unitarian Universalist Association
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Episcopal Church in the United States of America **
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America **
Note: The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded in 1967 as the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion and then later as the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR). The current name was chosen in 1993.
Note: The Anglican Church of Australia does not take a position on abortion

Note: Positions taken by **Anglicans **across the world are divergent…

Note: Fundamentalist churches that include, Evangelical, Non-denominational, **Southern Baptist **and Pentecostal movements, do not have a single definition or doctrine on abortion. While these movements hold in common that abortion (when there is no threat to the life of the woman) is a form of infanticide.

Note: Before 1980, the Southern Baptist Convention advocated for abortion rights.
**Note: **The United Methodist Church has upheld the idea that church doctrine should not interfere with secular abortion laws.

Note: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds that abortion is a form of unacceptable killing with few exceptions. According to the LDS library, "Some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion…

If anyone here wishs to refute any of this, then please do and please source you information.

Thanks.
 
raphinal,

I think the last couple of posts quotes here are messed up…

Jimmy
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello grampben, I went to the link that you provided and here it what I discovered.

The Roman Catholic Church –
…opposes procedures whose purpose is to destroy a fetus. The Church today firmly holds that “the first right of the human person is his life” and that life is assumed to begin at fertilization.

Protestant -

… on abortion vary considerably…

Christian fundamentalist -

“unanimously condemn abortion”
“Mainstream” Protestants

“take more nuanced positions, but are generally pro-choice”
Note: The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded in 1967 as the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion and then later as the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR). The current name was chosen in 1993.
Other denominations belong to the National Pro-Life Religious Council[24] including the –

(Pro-Life)
Lutheran** Church** - Missouri Synod
Charismatic Episcopal Church.

Pro-life

Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox
Lutheran** Church** - Missouri Synod
Charismatic Episcopal Church.
Anglican Church
Charismatic Episcopal Church
Wisconsin** Evangelical Lutheran Synod**
Wesleyan/Methodist **
Church of the Nazarene **
Wesleyan Church** **
Christian fundamentalist
Presbyterian Church of America (PCA)

Pro-Abortion
Episcopal Church
Presbyterian Church (USA) (PCUSA)
United Church of Christ
United Methodist Church
Unitarian Universalist Association
Lutheran Women’s Caucus
Episcopal Church in the United States of America **
Evangelical Lutheran Church in America **
Note: The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) was founded in 1967 as the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion and then later as the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights (RCAR). The current name was chosen in 1993.
Note: The Anglican Church of Australia does not take a position on abortion

Note: Positions taken by **Anglicans **across the world are divergent…

Note: Fundamentalist churches that include, Evangelical, Non-denominational, **Southern Baptist **and Pentecostal movements, do not have a single definition or doctrine on abortion. While these movements hold in common that abortion (when there is no threat to the life of the woman) is a form of infanticide.

Note: Before 1980, the Southern Baptist Convention advocated for abortion rights.
**Note: **The United Methodist Church has upheld the idea that church doctrine should not interfere with secular abortion laws.

Note: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints holds that abortion is a form of unacceptable killing with few exceptions. According to the LDS library, "Some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion…

If anyone here wishs to refute any of this, then please do and please source you information.

Thanks.
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As far as I know the Church of England isn’t pro choice like her American counterpart, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is pro life, and has called abortion ‘murder’.
 
**Grampben, **

Here, is what I discovered when I conducted a similar search from Wikipedia, on “Same-Sex Marriage” (Homosexual Marriage),

Apposes Gay Marriage

Roman Catholic Church
Orthodox
Church** of God**** in Christ**
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Conservative Congregational Christian Conference
Conservative Mennonite Conference
Convocation of Anglicans in North America, **
Hutterite Brethren
Orthodox Church in America
Seventh-day Adventist Church****,**
Southern Baptist Convention
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America

Supports Gay Marriage

Metropolitan** Community Church**
United Church of Christ
Unitarian Universalists
United Church of Canada

Episcopal*
Lutheran*
(*also here)

Note: Within the Christian tradition, religious objections to same-sex marriage are often based upon biblical passages at Genesis 19:5 Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6:8-10, and Jude 1:7**. (Also found on Wikipedia)**

If anyone here wish’s to refute any of this or add to it, then please do and please source your information.

Thanks.
 
grampben said:
As far as I know the Church of England isn’t pro choice like her American counterpart, and the Archbishop of Canterbury is pro life, and has called abortion ‘murder’.
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That’s interesting…So, why the difference in opinions on such an important moral issue?

Peace
 
reteeks21 said:
Will you ever start a thread that is NOT aimed at ridicule or disproving someone else’s faith? People like you do more harm than good. Any group, or person for that matter, that supports abortion are sick. That includes catholics and protestants. Your threads distort truth about others, and they cause nothing but arguements. You hide behind “I love my Christian brothers and sisters”, but YOUR fruit suggests otherwise. If you believe someone to be in the wrong that is fine. But consistently distorting the way others think and believe is wrong. It’s a false witness. Check your own eyes before you look into the eyes of others. You are a thoughtless bully who has nothing better to do that cause dissention. I wish moderators would call people like you (prot’s and cath’s alike) out more often for the cruel words you produce. Start acting out what you say you believe before you start exhorting others to do the same. You’re a joke and a hinderance to unity.

I can safely say, just as one of my friends on here who is a devout catholic has said, YOU are the biggest hinderance to me joining the rcc than anything else. If being a catholic means being associated with people like you I would rather just stay put.
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Hello reteeks21,

Thank you for your opinions. All of the compliments aside, what you think about
Post #41 and Post #44?

Any comments?

Peace
 
grampben said:
Well I’m Presbyterian Church of Ireland, which is conservative by global standards.I’m thinking of leaving the Presbyterians anyway lol. Presbyterian Church USA perhaps are more pro gay (not sure about gay marriage though). I would say the best thing to do is look up the site of whatever denomination you’re thinking of.
This might help:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion
Click to expand...
I used to belong to the PC(USA) and a few years ago the denomination was scarily close to allowing the ordination of practicing homosexuals… right now it’s a be chaste in singleness (heterosexual or homosexual) or faithful if you’re married (between one man and one woman) if you are a minister or elder of the church. There have been a few ministers that have been diciplined by their presbytery (sorta on equal governmental level of Dioceses, as far as it being the next highest in level of power above the individual churches) for performing gay “marriages”, but this isn’t really widespread, however the support from the churches in northern US for homosexual marriages and other liberal stances might make it possible in the next year or so. If this happens, there was talk in several congregations about either splitting the denomination to as it was pre 1980s (the major Presbyterian denomination in America at the time of the Civil war split over the issue of slavery… they were later reunited as the PC(USA)), and a 1500 member church (average church membership is about 250 people) in the Presbytery I was in at the time did leave the denomination to join with another American Presbyterian denomination. It was around this time I started seriously looking at the Catholic Church. But I digress… 😃 :rolleyes:

The stance on abortion is pretty much summed up as only in very few cases and only after alot of counseling. Birth control is pretty much universially accepted (and in my 20 years as a Presbyterian, I NEVER heard anything against birth control, and in fact I have heard a few passing remarks in sermons that implicitely stated it was OK). As far as euthanasia, there was a document that was produced by the general assembly on a definitve stance against euthanasia, but only 20 churches replied to it in the affirmative. The rest were silent. As of November 2008, there are 10,820 churches according to the official website. [pcusa.org/research/statistics_faq.htm#1](Membership statistics of PC(USA))

This is the most “liberal” Presbyterian denomination in the US… it’s also the biggest, and the only one to “ordain” women as ministers. However, there are some other denominations that have even more lax stances on these issues, but since there are <33,000 non-Catholic denominations, it’s really hard at times for me to keep up with… 😊

God Bless!
Ericka
 
ericka1701 said:
I used to belong to the PC(USA) and a few years ago the denomination was scarily close to allowing the ordination of practicing homosexuals… right now it’s a be chaste in singleness (heterosexual or homosexual) or faithful if you’re married (between one man and one woman) if you are a minister or elder of the church. There have been a few ministers that have been diciplined by their presbytery (sorta on equal governmental level of Dioceses, as far as it being the next highest in level of power above the individual churches) for performing gay “marriages”, but this isn’t really widespread, however the support from the churches in northern US for homosexual marriages and other liberal stances might make it possible in the next year or so. If this happens, there was talk in several congregations about either splitting the denomination to as it was pre 1980s (the major Presbyterian denomination in America at the time of the Civil war split over the issue of slavery… they were later reunited as the PC(USA)), and a 1500 member church (average church membership is about 250 people) in the Presbytery I was in at the time did leave the denomination to join with another American Presbyterian denomination. It was around this time I started seriously looking at the Catholic Church. But I digress… 😃 :rolleyes:

The stance on abortion is pretty much summed up as only in very few cases and only after alot of counseling. Birth control is pretty much universially accepted (and in my 20 years as a Presbyterian, I NEVER heard anything against birth control, and in fact I have heard a few passing remarks in sermons that implicitely stated it was OK). As far as euthanasia, there was a document that was produced by the general assembly on a definitve stance against euthanasia, but only 20 churches replied to it in the affirmative. The rest were silent. As of November 2008, there are 10,820 churches according to the official website. [pcusa.org/research/statistics_faq.htm#1](http://membership statistics of PC(USA))

This is the most “liberal” Presbyterian denomination in the US… it’s also the biggest, and the only one to “ordain” women as ministers. However, there are some other denominations that have even more lax stances on these issues, but since there are <33,000 non-Catholic denominations, it’s really hard at times for me to keep up with… 😊

God Bless!
Ericka
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Hello Ericka,

Thank you for your post.

God Bless!
 
http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/999/PreviewComp/SuperStock_999-408.jpg

Matthew 7:15-21

***15 **9 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. *
***16 ******By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? ***
***17 ******Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. ***
***18 ******A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. ***
***19 ******Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. ***
***20 ******So by their fruits you will know them. ***
***21 *****"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **
 
John7 said:
Everyone knows the Episcopals are gay (yuk!!) and the Lutherans (ELCA) as well as German Lutherans are close to going gay too.“German lutherans agonise over gay bishopA Lutheran church in northern Germany is divided over the candidacy of an openly gay archdeacon for the post of bishopBerlin – Germany’s Lutheran Church has become embroiled in a debate over whether to elect its first openly gay bishop.” (Expatica)I think they voted this past July but I can’t find the results:shrug:

This just in…On July 12, by a vote of 77 - 56, the Synod of the North Elbian Evangelical Lutheran Church chose Gerhard Ulrich provost of Kappeln-an-der-Schlei to serve as bishop for the Diocese of Schleswig. Rev. Ulrich defeated Rev. Horst Gorski (lutheranconfessions.com) Gorski is the practicing gay reverend.
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The best response to that post, is the one directly above it. :cool:​

 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello gramben, how are you? Well, I hope.

You wrote -

“the presbyterian church, which doesn’t have a hierarchy or centralised authority really.”

What does this mean exactly?

You also wrote -

“But the moderator is only there for a year.”

Who decides how long the “moderator” stays and what is a “moderator”? This is a new term for me.

Thank you, God bless.

Peace,

Jimmy
Click to expand...

The Presbyterian Kirk of Scotland has one too - they serve for one year. For the details, your best bet is probably a combination of​

  • the Westminster Standards
  • Practice and Procedure in The Church of Scotland
    edited by the late Rev. James Taylor Cox, D.D. published by The Committee on General Administration, The Church of Scotland, 1976 (sixth edition)
which has been replaced by
  • The Constitution and Laws of the Church of Scotland
    edited by the Very Rev Dr James L. Weatherhead, published 1997 by the Church of Scotland.
For more, see:
 
grampben said:
Well the organisation, or polity as its known in theological terms, is ‘presbyterian’. Instead of trying to explain this, here’s a wikipedia article on it.

The General Assembly, are the governing body of the whole denomination and elect a moderator, not as ‘head of the church’ (which is seen as Christ’s role) but as a public representative for the denomination.

Hope this helps!

Hope all’s well with you Jimmy!
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Hello Granpben,

So, there is a hierarchy, so to speak…

I’m doing ok, thanks.

God Bless!
 
Gottle_of_Geer said:

The Presbyterian Kirk of Scotland has one too - they serve for one year. For the details, your best bet is probably a combination of​

  • the Westminster Standards
  • Practice and Procedure in The Church of Scotland
    edited by the late Rev. James Taylor Cox, D.D. published by The Committee on General Administration, The Church of Scotland, 1976 (sixth edition)
which has been replaced by
  • The Constitution and Laws of the Church of Scotland
    edited by the Very Rev Dr James L. Weatherhead, published 1997 by the Church of Scotland.
For more, see:
Click to expand...
Hello Gottle of Geer,

Thank you, I went to the site that you gave and found this-

“The chairperson of each court is known as the ‘moderator’ – at the local level of the Kirk Session, the moderator is always a minister, normally the parish minister who is ex officio member and Moderator of the Session; Presbyteries and the General Assembly elect a moderator each year.”
**
Peace
 
Jimmy_B said:
That’s interesting…So, why the difference in opinions on such an important moral issue?

Peace
Click to expand...
Well the Anglican communion has no centralised authority, and whereas in the catholic chruch one must agree with everything the church teaches, this is not necessary in most protestant denominations.
 
grampben said:
True, within the Anglican communion many people aren’t sure. But the formation of the New Anglican Province of North America (or whatever its called) is a good sign, the breakaway groups are uniting.
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I think you’re referring to the Anglican Communion Network. They’re a pretty diverse group, not limited simply to high-church Anglicanism, but also those of a more evangelical persuasion (like the church my in-laws attend).

But I agree, their move toward unity is a very positive development 👍
 
djrakowski said:
I think you’re referring to the Anglican Communion Network. They’re a pretty diverse group, not limited simply to high-church Anglicanism, but also those of a more evangelical persuasion (like the church my in-laws attend).

But I agree, their move toward unity is a very positive development 👍
Click to expand...
No, I’m referring to the recent split from TEC, supported by 9 former breakaway anglican denominations. Here is some info.
 
grampben said:
No, I’m referring to the recent split from TEC, supported by 9 former breakaway anglican denominations. Here is some info.
Click to expand...
Got it - thanks for the clarification. My in-law’s church is a member of the Anglican Communion Network, and the ACN is a member of this new Anglican Church in North America.
 
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