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marci
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Kendy
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Kendy
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marci
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Kendy
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Eliza10;1885410:
Padre Pio once slapped someone for criticizing a bishop who was known to be friendly with the ladies. By that standard, I think we are very temperate.
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marci
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How about we all agree to stop with the name calling? It takes a rational discussion right into the gutter.
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marci
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Just in case anyone was wondering. BTW, I was totally serious about the lighting a candle thing, it wasn’t ment to “cheeky”
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Eliza10
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marci;1885426;1885410:
Perhaps you are just suffering from a sudden gross lack of imagination?
I’m no fellow, marci. And I am appalled at your suggestion that Pope John Paul II lacked courage! It is cheeky! Ignorant! What a leap to take. How wrong to judge the motives of his heart. Do you have access to that which also only God has?
Perhaps you are just suffering from a sudden gross lack of imagination?
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Eliza10
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The names were not for you, but for the action of judging the Popes motive. Judging a person would be name-calling. This is judging an action.
And I do admire that you would light a candle for the cannonization of this Pope.
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marci
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First of all, I never said he lacked courage. I said it was my opinion he lacked leadership during the abuse scandals. Someone else put those words into my post.
Second, I did not at any time state that I was “judging the motives of his heart”.
Do you have access to the findings of the church as to whether or not they have found sufficient evidence for beatification? When they come out with their findings for that conclusion, I will happily add another Saint to my list.
Where does the venom come from?
Oh, and the fellow thing was just a figure of speech. Forgive me, I guess in my ignorance, arrogance, and cheekiness, I wasn’t being gender sensitive. I guess you can add sexist to the list.
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Kendy
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My favorite part of every saint movie, and thanks to a good friend of mine, I have seen plenty, is how dumbfounded all the well-read catholics are when they realized that the ignorant people, with their total lack of theological education, were the ones who recognized the saint in their midst.
If you really want to know if someone is a saint, you should ask that little, catholic grandmother with her rosaries.
Kendy
If you really want to know if someone is a saint, you should ask that little, catholic grandmother with her rosaries.
Kendy
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JKirkLVNV
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And HERE is where you disclose your little agenda (and a degree of ignorance as to how papal visits operate):
The bare-breasted woman incident was on a papal visit. Those masses are arranged by episcopal conferences (in this case, I believe the bishops of New Guinea). They are the pope’s hosts. All of the goings on are arranged and set up by them, down to the vestments the pope will wear (when he went to California to visit, they already had these made for him and they’re on display, along with the provenance of their origin, in the California missions that he visited). They’re the one’s who line up the servers, the choir, the readers, etc. The pope was probably as astonished as any of us would be to see a bare-breasted woman go to the ambo. What should he have done? Walked out? Yelled, “Hey, you cheap tart, put some clothes on!” and publically humiliated a woman dressed according to the tradtions of her society, which doesn’t sexualize the breast? I’m not one of these people who thinks we can introduce all sorts of cultural stuff into the Mass, but the pope gets a walk on this one, since it was the bishops who did it and not him. You’ve been reading too much Horvat et al.
And by what criteria do you adjudge that the Servant of God Pope John Paul II was incorrect in his assessment of HH Pope Paul VI?
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Kendy
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I don’t know what the difference between a lack of leadership and lack of courage means. If you meant to say, he just lacked leadership aptitude then it was the fault of the Holy Spirit for choosing someone with poor leadership skills. If he didn’t exercise his leadership abilities because he was worried about how others might react, then he lacked courage.
Kendy
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JKirkLVNV
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But the one’s who’s place it IS (Pope Benedict XVI) has already called him John Paul the Great. Anyone else doing it is merely following a reputable lead.
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marci
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I’ll give you an example, I think president Bush has lot’s of courage in the “war on terror”, but he lacks leadership.
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Kendy
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Do you mean he lacks wisdom? Or do you mean he’s unable to rally others behind him?
The first one might disqualify him for sainthood, but not the second.
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JKirkLVNV
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On whom would the pope rely for information regarding the paedophilia scandal? The bishops? The same bishops that helped cover the scandal up in the first place? Do we imagine that any of them would call him up and say,“I’ve a paedophile priest that I’m pulling out of one parish, where he’s molested a LOT of boys, and I’m thinking of moving him to another and putting him in charge of the acolyte training. What do you think?”
The last person on the earth who can be seriously and credibly accused of lacking in leadership is the Servant of God John Paul the Great. And before any of you presume to sit in judgment of him (great sport for the late teens and early 20’s crowd on these forums), have any of you ever carried the burden of the papacy? I’m quite sure you fantasize about the day when YOUR name is announced from the loggia of Saint Peter’s, but I wager you’ve not the remotest notion of how heavy this cross is. There’s only One heavier.
The last person on the earth who can be seriously and credibly accused of lacking in leadership is the Servant of God John Paul the Great. And before any of you presume to sit in judgment of him (great sport for the late teens and early 20’s crowd on these forums), have any of you ever carried the burden of the papacy? I’m quite sure you fantasize about the day when YOUR name is announced from the loggia of Saint Peter’s, but I wager you’ve not the remotest notion of how heavy this cross is. There’s only One heavier.
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havemercy
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Saints aren’t canonized because they did everything they were supposed to, nor are they recognized as Saints because they are St. Pope Pius X. They are canonized because they gave themselves to God entirely, and their lives on earth and in heaven gave and give much fruit.
The canonization of John Paul II (a loving father of ours) is not up to us. It is up to the magisterium, and consequently and moreover, up to God. Perhaps you ought to spend more time praying than arguing over whether or not John Paul II’s canonization suits you. Quite frankly, I don’t have a problem with it.
Pax Christi
The canonization of John Paul II (a loving father of ours) is not up to us. It is up to the magisterium, and consequently and moreover, up to God. Perhaps you ought to spend more time praying than arguing over whether or not John Paul II’s canonization suits you. Quite frankly, I don’t have a problem with it.
Pax Christi
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marci
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I don’t think he lacks wisdom. I said that during the scandal I think he was less then authoritative in handling the offenders and those that covered their actions.
Besides, I don’t think that public greatness and wisdom have much to do with sainthood. Don’t you believe that there are probably thousands of holy men and women throughout the ages, some of them martyrs even, that we have never even heard of, but are no doubt among the saints in Heaven?
What about all of the christian faithful throughout the world in our own time, who are being murdered for their faithfullness to Christ.
For all I know, God has deemed it a done deal. I am really not as presumtuous as you may think. I won’t have a problem with the church declaring him a saint either. I am simply giving my opinion about it, nothing more. As I am sure you know, it takes alot to declare someone “officially” a saint. All I have said is that I will wait to see what the church says before I assume that he is now a saint. However, I remain open to that possibility for him.
Also, just because the Holy Spirit may choose someone for the papacy that may or may not have good leadership qualities, or oratory ability, or even theological intellect, doesn’t mean that it is somehow the wrong choice.
No one is perfect, that goes triple for me, and I know that John Paul comes a heck of alot closer to the definition than I could ever hope to. I follow the pope because the church tells me he is infallible (when speaking infallibly, of course) I trust this truth, reguardless of what I personally think about any pope.
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