“No sin can separate us from Him (God), even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

[Robert_in_SD]

As with all things, read Luther in context, read when he is using satire and rhetoric, and (if you can) read the original German rather than an English translation.

As Catholic scholar Jared Wicks said in his book, Luther and His Spiritual Legacy: “One needs to be on the lookout for Luther’s rhetorical flights, and to be judicious in discriminating between the substance of his message and the linguistic extremes with which he sometimes made his points.”

The point Luther was making is not to go out and murder or fornicate as much as possible; it was to remember the infinite sacrifice of Christ’s atonement: there is no sin that Christ cannot cover. To say that there is would be to limit the Atonement and limit the power of God.

I may be wrong, but isn’t it true that Luther (and Lutherans in general) do not accept the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved as professed by the Calvinist branches of the protestant tree? Didn’t Lutheran doctrine contemplate the potential for loss of salvation? I thought that was the case, and a point of contention as between Calvinists and Lutherans.

In any event, it is an unfortunate use of language (or a failure to capture the idiom of the German language in an English translation) that has led to a greater misunderstanding of what the bible and the Church really have to say about the relationship between personal sin and salvation.

Having tired of the polemics, I am willing to concede that most protestant christians do not see Luther’s writings as a mandate to go out and “sin boldly.” Rather, it is a plea to contemplate the Mercy of Christ. Nevertheless, Luther’s dialoges set the stage for a further divergences away from the fullness of truth.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[O.S.Luke]

I may be wrong, but isn’t it true that Luther (and Lutherans in general) do not accept the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved as professed by the Calvinist branches of the protestant tree? Didn’t Lutheran doctrine contemplate the potential for loss of salvation? I thought that was the case, and a point of contention as between Calvinists and Lutherans.

You are correct. That, and the Real Presence at the Eucharist, were main points of divergence between Calvinist and Lutheran thought (for the debate about the Real Presence, read the Marburg Colloquy, debate between Luther and Ulrich Zwingli). A simplistic, but not too inaccurate account of the Colloquy is here.

In any event, it is an unfortunate use of language (or a failure to capture the idiom of the German language in an English translation) that has led to a greater misunderstanding of what the bible and the Church really have to say about the relationship between personal sin and salvation.

German doesn’t translate well into English; German grammar has a loose structure which causes problems in translations, and idiom of any language translates at best very poorly into another.

Having tired of the polemics, I am willing to concede that most protestant christians do not see Luther’s writings as a mandate to go out and “sin boldly.” Rather, it is a plea to contemplate the Mercy of Christ. Nevertheless, Luther’s dialoges set the stage for a further divergences away from the fullness of truth.

I’ve never heard anyone say that Luther was giving a license to go out and sin - except from Catholics engaged in polemical apologetics . Again, context is everything:

God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. - Martin Luther, “A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon”, Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521, From the Wartburg Castle. Trans. by Erika Bullmann Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther’s Saemmtliche Schriften, St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House

Again, the bottom line for Luther was that nothing could separate us from the love of Christ - even our worst or greatest collective sin is not beyond the power of God to forgive. That would be to limit God.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**1035 ** ****The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1850 Sin is an offense against God: “Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight.” Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become “like gods,” knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus “love of oneself even to contempt of God.” In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.

 

[valient_Lucy]

No, you missed the point. The point was whether God could forgive multiple serious sins and the obvious answer that you fail to grasp is that of course He can because He can do whatever He wishes to do. Even if the person doesn’t repent, God could still forgive the sins, otherwise God wouldn’t so powerful, now would He…

So when Jesus told people to repent, he was really just wasting their time, because we don’t need to repent? We can keep sinning after we’ve been forgiven, and we don’t need to stop sinning?

That’s cool. God’s forgiveness gives us license to do whatever we want!!

 

[O.S.Luke]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life (Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.):

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. - Rom 3:21-26.

 

[NDfan]

What do you think?

Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote? -

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"

I think you are taking this quote way out of context. Luther is not saying that we should commit murder 1000 times a day or commit adultery the same amount because it doesn’t matter. He’s saying that the price Jesus paid on the cross has no limits when it comes to forgiveness of sins.

Keep reading his final message and I quote:

"Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner. "

The point here is that we are all sinners and are in need of forgiveness. The sacrifice Christ paid at the cross is not a limited sacrifice. I don’t think Luther would tell us to go out and commit murder and adultery and not to worry about it because GOD will forgive you anyway.

PEACE

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello O.S. Luke,

Thank you for your post.

I always like it when a Protestant posts something from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because, in some cases, it means that we do share some common beliefs, as long as we understand what is meant in the Catechism, as determined by the Catholic Church and in its proper context.

Unfortunately, I have in the past, read many posts here at CAF, where a Catholic Saint, Catholic Doctor of the Church, Catholic Pope or the Catechism of the Catholic Church is cited by a non-Catholic, “personally interpreted” and/or misinterpreted (much like the Bible) to try and disprove an aspect of Catholicism, which is utter nonsense. I am not yet, implying that, this is the case here, so please do not take it that way…

Therefore, I must know, what was the reason for your post and what does it mean to you, as a non-Catholic?

The issue here between Protestants and Catholics goes to, “Justification” and ultimate “Salvation”; what they mean and how, or at what point, they occur…Right?

What is your denomination’s definition of “Justification”; and what is your denomination’s definition of “Salvation”?

And, what was the purpose of your post (#65). I am curious, what message where you attempting to convey here?

Thanks

 

[Jimmy_B]

I think you are taking this quote way out of context…PEACE

Hello NDfan,

Thank you for your post.

I disagree and I think that you are taking what I wrote here out of context and misinterpreting my words. How could I possibly be guilty of taking this quote, out of context, when I provided a link to the entire letter?

I simply started, wanting to know what people here thought about this quote. Please read the first post here and you will see that I am simply asking a question here and that I have not interpreted this specific quote. However, I have offered some comments, in regards to certain errant, non-Catholic beliefs.

Peace.

 

[wcknight]

Doesn’t Jesus make it perfectly clear that “Evil doers and the wicked will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God”

IF you are an unrepentent mass murderer or unrepentant adulterer, you are toast !

Folks who go by the once saved always saved idea, ought to go out and join the “Axe Murderers For Christ Society.” The stuff they are advocating is very dangerous and will mislead many to damnation.

Just because you proclaim that Jesus is Lord, that does not give you free license to go out and rape, murder, plunder, and pillage to your hearts content. Think about it, God may be all merciful, but he does not give anyone free rein to go out and do all sorts of evil and dispicable things. God may have the power and authority to forgive all such sins, but the big question is WILL HE, and my guess is that He most certainly will not !

Anyone stupid enough to try out this theory, puts themselves at great risk. That’s just pure common sense.

 

[NDfan]

Hello NDfan,

Thank you for your post.

I disagree and I think that you are taking what I wrote here out of context and misinterpreting my words. How could I possibly be guilty of taking this quote, out of context, when I provided a link to the entire letter?

I simply started, wanting to know what people here thought about this quote. Please read the first post here and you will see that I am simply asking a question here and that I have not interpreted this specific quote. However, I have offered some comments, in regards to certain errant, non-Catholic beliefs.

Peace.

Hello Jimmy,

I did read the original post given that’s what I quoted from

The reason I mentioned you were taking the quote out of context is because you were asking for an opinion on it rather than the entire letter. I’ve read the letter before as it always seems to draw controversy as to what Luther could have been thinking by writing something like that. But you can’t proof-text the letter by grabbing this one quote because it wasn’t Luther’s intention to convey that murder and adultery thousands of times a day don’t matter. He was using the magnitude of that type of sin to convey the significance of Christ’s work at the cross. Basically stating that the sacrifice is way beyond any sin we can commit. If we say that there are sins beyond Christ’s sacrifice, then that would imply that GOD delivered a flawed plan of salvation. We both know HE didn’t.

If you would like a direct answer to this quote taken at face value the answer is emphatically no. We cannot commit murder 1 time a day much less 1000 and think it doesn’t matter because Christ has us covered by HIS blood. I’ll go right to Romans where Paul tells us that we cannot live a life of sin and be committed to Christ. The 2 just don’t mix. That doesn’t mean we won’t commit sin. But it certainly doesn’t give us Carte Blanche to do whatever we want.

I think the point I was trying to make was more that people tend to throw Luther under the bus by citing things like this in an effort to discredit him. Luther certainly would not tell us it’s OK to murder and commit adultery. His works are chop full of sarcasm as that was more of his style of writing.

PEACE Brother

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hello nsper7, I don’t know what you complaint is, because I provided a link to the entire letter.

Here is more of the statement from - “Let Your Sins Be Strong”,

Have you ever heard of the expression, “be careful what you ask for”?…The statement before the quote here, is almost as bad as the quote itself.

I am no expert but I have read enough of Luther, to know not to encourage people to post Luther quotes here, if you are a big fan of Luther’s.

He comes across like a crazy man…

Good Luck defending him.

Peace

Hebrews 10
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (for he is faithful that hath promised): 24 And let us consider one another, to provoke unto charity and to good works: 25 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: If we sin wilfully… (He speaks of the sin of wilful apostasy from the known truth; after which, as we can not be baptized again, we can not expect to have that abundant remission of sins, which Christ purchased by his death, applied to our souls in that ample manner as it is in baptism but we have rather all manner of reason to look for a dreadful judgment; the more because apostates from the known truth, seldom or never have the grace to return to it. 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean…

How ML missed this?

 

[Will_B]

This is very interesting…
**Let me give some (name removed by moderator)ut… I am not God, however I am a father and made in the image of God… I try to Love like God, but often fail.

If my children where to kill, steal, or commit other mortal sins a thousand times daily, I would still love them… I would however punish them according to their wicketness. I would do all possible to have them repent and turn from their wicked ways.

Isn’t that what Our Father in Heaven did by sending his Son to die for our sins??**

Blessing,

Will B

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Jimmy,

I did read the original post given that’s what I quoted from

The reason I mentioned you were taking the quote out of context is because you were asking for an opinion on it rather than the entire letter. I’ve read the letter before as it always seems to draw controversy as to what Luther could have been thinking by writing something like that. But you can’t proof-text the letter by grabbing this one quote because it wasn’t Luther’s intention to convey that murder and adultery thousands of times a day don’t matter. He was using the magnitude of that type of sin to convey the significance of Christ’s work at the cross. Basically stating that the sacrifice is way beyond any sin we can commit. If we say that there are sins beyond Christ’s sacrifice, then that would imply that GOD delivered a flawed plan of salvation. We both know HE didn’t.

If you would like a direct answer to this quote taken at face value the answer is emphatically no. We cannot commit murder 1 time a day much less 1000 and think it doesn’t matter because Christ has us covered by HIS blood. I’ll go right to Romans where Paul tells us that we cannot live a life of sin and be committed to Christ. The 2 just don’t mix. That doesn’t mean we won’t commit sin. But it certainly doesn’t give us Carte Blanche to do whatever we want.

I think the point I was trying to make was more that people tend to throw Luther under the bus by citing things like this in an effort to discredit him. Luther certainly would not tell us it’s OK to murder and commit adultery. His works are chop full of sarcasm as that was more of his style of writing.

PEACE Brother

Thank you NDfan,

I can appreciate what you are saying here and Catholics do believe that God is Loving, Merciful, Forgiving and Just and that Jesus suffered, died, was buried and that He Rose Again, so that our sins might be forgiven and so that we can all share, in the “hope” of Eternal Salvation.

I think the difference here, is between a Catholic belief in “hope” - (“hope” a word, which is repeated of more than 100 times in the Bible) and the word, “guaranteed”, which appears twice and neither time does it refer to “Eternal Salvation”.

I know that the “Once Saved Always Saved” (OSAS) belief is credited to Calvin, after Luther and that in the very beginning of the Protestant Reformation, Luther rejected “predestination”.

However, I also know that as time went on, Luther was “all over the map” with his beliefs and his comment here, does appear to indicate a belief in “OSAS”, am I wrong?

Moreover, how do you know what Luther’s intent was, at the time of this letter?

Do you believe in OSAS?

Peace

 

[nsper7]

Remember, one does not have to believe in OSAS to agree with Luther. There is a third option as it were: basically, one believe that one cannot lose their Salvation through sin, but they could lose it through no longer accepting Christ’s sacrifice as efficacious.

 

[JonNC]

However, I also know that as time went on, Luther was “all over the map” with his beliefs and his comment here, does appear to indicate a belief in “OSAS”, am I wrong?

Jimmy,
I’ll disagree with you that Luther was “all over the map” with his beliefs. May I offer the following article about this Luther quote. I know it will not convince you about Luther, or even what he is trying to say here. But as I am here to try to understand what you believe, I offer this in the same light.

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,
I’ll disagree with you that Luther was “all over the map” with his beliefs. May I offer the following article about this Luther quote. I know it will not convince you about Luther, or even what he is trying to say here. But as I am here to try to understand what you believe, I offer this in the same light.

ntrmin.org/Be%20a%20sinner%20and%20sin%20boldly%20web.htm

Jon

Hello Jon,

To be honest with you, I don’t know what Luther meant by his quote here, although on its surface, I find it to be disturbing and somewhat offensive.

That is why I asked the question. You have posted this link before and I am sorry I haven’t got back you on this point. The impression that I get from, going to your link is that some Protestants are concerned with this quote as well and that is why a great deal of effort was put into “justifying” it, in the linked article, provided. That is my impression.

Peace

 

[JonNC]

Hello Jon,

To be honest with you, I don’t know what Luther meant by his quote here, although on its surface, I find it to be disturbing and somewhat offensive.

That is why I asked the question. You have posted this link before and I am sorry I haven’t got back you on this point. The impression that I get from, going to your link is that some Protestants are concerned with this quote as well and that is why a great deal of effort was put into “justifying” it, in the linked article, provided. That is my impression.

Peace

Some protestants are concerned because they read into it that Luther believed OSAS. It is a misreading of this, and other quotes of Luther’s concerning sin and salvation. His strong support of the importance of works leaves them - other protestants - I think, disappointed.
As for the great deal of effort, Catholics here, yourself included, put a great deal of effort into clarifying what Catholics really believe, when challenged by others who misrepresent it. Yes?

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Some protestants are concerned because they read into it that Luther believed OSAS. It is a misreading of this, and other quotes of Luther’s concerning sin and salvation. His strong support of the importance of works leaves them - other protestants - I think, disappointed.
As for the great deal of effort, Catholics here, yourself included, put a great deal of effort into clarifying what Catholics really believe, when challenged by others who misrepresent it. Yes?

Jon

Yep

 

[gavanhe]

If you think about it, we were given a free will to do as we please and that includes sinning, but then to claim that osas as a doctrine is a bit beyond the pale. The whole point of free will is to allow us to choose God or not, else the purpose of creation becomes a moot point.
Gerry

 

[JonNC]

If you think about it, we were given a free will to do as we please and that includes sinning, but then to claim that osas as a doctrine is a bit beyond the pale. The whole point of free will is to allow us to choose God or not, else the purpose of creation becomes a moot point.
Gerry

Gerry, I generally agree.
I think, as a Lutheran, I would say free will gives us the choice to not choose God. Grace, as opposed to any ability we have on our own, allows us to recieve God. The battle we face as sinners is to constantly work hard to remain in that Grace, and not choose to sin. Luther’s point is that we often fail. Therefore, we must confess those sins and return to Grace. Our weakness to sin, no matter how great, cannot compare to the greatness of His Grace. “If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
No right-thinking Lutheran would ever claim that our justification by grace through faith is a free ticket to do whatever we want.

Jon