“Once Saved Always Saved” #3

[Nicea325]

I doubt that any of us choose to believe anything. Choice has little to do with it. I cannot choose to believe that the sky is green or that 2+2=5. Calvinism is actually not as flowery as OSAS has become in our day in age. I would rather choose to believe that I have control over whether or not I am saved. Be that as it may, I am compelled to believe Calvin’s points from my reading of the Bible in the same way you are compelled to believe the canons and decrees of the Council of Trent from your reading of scripture. Could you really just stop believing Catholicism right now if you chose to do so? I think not.

Well it all depends if one believes in free-will or not. As for your last sentence? Actually many stop believing in Catholicism,Christianity and in God,believe it or not for whatever reasons. Again, I do not believe God forces anyone to believe in Him. Choices,decisions or free-will take your pick.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by CARV

Truth is that the Bible describes God as doing many things that would make you label Him a monster. He kills men, women and children with flood water, sends angels to kill the first-born children of Egypt, and orders the Isrealites to slaughter men women and children with the sword. So it is not hard to imagine that God loves some and not others. Paul seems to agree.

Romans 9:10

10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion…”.

This is true, and on whom does He has mercy and compassion? On the ones that come through the Lord, anyone that comes with repentance will not be cast aside but if someday you sin and don’t repent, He will not have mercy or compassion on you because you denied Him and His spirit as well as His son. Where in the Bible has God forgiven someone that hasn’t repented.

If the devil repented he would be forgiven, but he won’t be forgiven because he will never repent for what he did because he has denied the Son, he is in a continual spiritual state of sin. He has a lot of pride, he denies the spirit.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

If think you are saved, you will change your mind if read this verse, if you sin in this way you will not be saved.

God bless, and guide you, in Jesus name , Amen.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Jerry,
thanks for the detailed response. My understandind and belief is this:
Once saved we have the choice to delay our final destination and extend our misery even unto the first hell (purgatory); but it cannot be denied. Recall 1Tim 2:13
“If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.”

Regards
Pitcharan

 

[CARV]

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion…”.

This is true, and on whom does He has mercy and compassion? On the ones that come through the Lord, anyone that comes with repentance will not be cast aside but if someday you sin and don’t repent, He will not have mercy or compassion on you because you denied Him and His spirit as well as His son. Where in the Bible has God forgiven someone that hasn’t repented.

If the devil repented he would be forgiven, but he won’t be forgiven because he will never repent for what he did because he has denied the Son, he is in a continual spiritual state of sin. He has a lot of pride, he denies the spirit.

I disagree. I’ll quote Paul again with emphasis.

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

The salvation of a soul is in God’s hands, not his own. It doesn’t hang on what a man wants or what he does. Man is predestined to heaven entirely by God’s merciful election. Read Romans 9. The disturbing truth cannot be avoided.

Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.

If think you are saved, you will change your mind if read this verse, if you sin in this way you will not be saved.

God bless, and guide you, in Jesus name , Amen.

It is less about thinking one is saved than it is about having faith and hoping that one is saved.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey…Santa Maria,CA? Is that the town where the 101 runs through it? If it is,my girlfriend’s friend has a restaurant there. I am from So.Cal…San Diego. Well currently live in Riverside County for the last 5 years.

BTW: If I have ever been arrogant,rude and divisive…my apologies.

No, you have not! I have many catholic friends and coworkers, who brag about their sexual escapades(outside of their respective marriages) talk about how drunk they got last night, and I am surprised at the number of F-bombs and GD’s they drop on me! It is only by the grace of God, and the peace that surpasses all understanding(Philippians 4:7) that I am able to keep a cool head during our heated arguments about religion!

 

[benidict]

No, you have not! I have many catholic friends and coworkers, who brag about their sexual escapades(outside of their respective marriages) talk about how drunk they got last night, and I am surprised at the number of F-bombs and GD’s they drop on me! It is only by the grace of God, and the peace that surpasses all understanding(Philippians 4:7) that I am able to keep a cool head during our heated arguments about religion!

and many of the protestant soldiers i have in my platoon do the same. so the Catholics definitly do not have a monopoly on bad behavior…Peace

 

[1beleevr]

In the interest of full disclosure we moved from Pismo to Arroyo Grande but Arroyo Grande pal loses something in translation. I know some rude arrogant and divisive people who call themselves Catholic also…Nancy Pelosi…and Joe Biden to name a couple. You said you had “no desire to convert to Catholicism”. Well I did not either…I read the Catechism out of a desire to know what it was about…not with any determination to convert. I had an open mind and that was all that was necessary for me. If you like cafeteria theology maybe you are ok where you are but your honest search will always be welcome

The reason I said I would be a cafeteria catholic, is because I couldn’t bring myself to call the pope holy father, I would not go to confession weekly, and probably would still eat meat(albeit chicken) on Friday. Wouldn’t wear a crucifix either. And don’t believe in purgatory. That’s my very honest reply!

 

[1beleevr]

and many of the protestant soldiers i have in my platoon do the same. so the Catholics definitly do not have a monopoly on bad behavior…Peace

Oh, let me tell you; there are pretty bad Christians in every religion. We just happened to be talking about catholics that I have met!

 

[Pat_De]

Do you remember the words of Jesus as to what the ONLY unpardonable sin is? Blaspheming or turning against the Holy Spirit.
The book of Revelation refers to the church becoming “Lukewarm” and allowing Jezebel in. You either have to have one spirit or the other.

My point is you cannot bring in the Holy Spirit anymore than you could kick him out; you can run from God if your are among the elect, but you can’t hide; just ask Jonah. On the day you are called based on your repentance and submission to Jesus as slave of your life, then that is it; you can be disobedient for a while if you are a child of God and a child will be disobedient, but the child will be disciplined as stated explicitly in Scripture.

Hebrews 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom {his} father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

Paul makes a similar analogy in 1 Cor 11:32

Since most people are taught that the Bible says God cannot hold onto His own or His own can turn their back on Him and then come and go as one chooses; does not know God or understand the very nature of what salvation is and how it was achieved or how it is kept.

Hebrews 6 is the chapter that stumps those that cannot handle the fact that Once God has given you His Holy Spirit you cannot remove Him.

 

[benidict]

Oh, let me tell you; there are pretty bad Christians in every religion. We just happened to be talking about catholics that I have met!

and wouldnt you agree, that we should pray for such as these? be they Catholic or Protestant? because we also have atheist out there, agnostics. people such as this make us a laughingstock to Athiest, and a stumbling stone for agnostics. peace

 

[1beleevr]

and wouldnt you agree, that we should pray for such as these? be they Catholic or Protestant? because we also have atheist out there, agnostics. people such as this make us a laughingstock to Athiest, and a stumbling stone for agnostics. peace

I pray for atheists, agnostics, my catholic, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, and whatever friends nearly every day!

 

[Pat_De]

Here are a few places in Scripture that speak to true believers who fell away because they stopped cooperating with God’s grace:

John 15:6
Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them (angels) and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

Romans 11:22****
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

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Hebrews 10:26-27****
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

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2 Peter 2:20-21****
**For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Believers cannot fall away anymore than they can believe in the first place without the sovereignty of God working in the heart of the elected. Unfortunately for you; you have an understanding of these passages as though they are referring to believers as opposed to non-believers who have head knowledge, but not heart knowledge.

Context is everything; as Paul for example in your Romans passage; Paul does know that there are going to be both those who are true and those that are false who will receive this letter or hearing of this letter so he gives the only way we can know as humans of the reflection of Christ dwelling in a life and that is a life of perseverance wrought by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:19 gives the example of what I am speaking of. You must have knowledge and skill in seeing and understanding the context of the passage and the background to which the passage is referring to gain understanding as to what God is saying. You are lacking this skill in this particular post, but your walk is different than mine or the next persons, but as long as you are determined and persistent in reading and studying the Word and you are truly a Christian then these easy things will become very clear and you can move even deeper and I pray that will happen for you and may the Lord bless you and nice to meet you. You are not really Elvis are you; aren’t you dead?

John 15 is also about perseverance the the righteous works prepared by God, the bearing of fruit to distinguish the true from the false and notice the Lord says you can do NOTHING without Him.

2 Peter should be obvious He is speaking of head knowledge, which is the person that hears and says they believe, like the demons or like the false confessors who are unable to persevere because as Jesus said you can do NOTHING without me.

If you do not mind me asking; how long have you been a Christian? I’m not putting you down or on the spot so please do not be offended by the question and if you do want to answer but not in the public, then send me a private email through the forum. Blessings!

 

[benidict]

I pray for atheists, agnostics, my catholic, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, and whatever friends nearly every day!

and i as well. may we continue to do so. Peace

 

[Pat_De]

That ties OSAS to another of Calvin’s points…the doctrine of irresistible grace. The idea is that when God mercifully preordains a soul to glory, He will infallibly complete the work of salvation in that soul. I don’t look at it as coercion. God is the ultimate good. No soul, however wicked he be, could resist God’s goodness if He sends sufficient grace to said soul. God is not that impotent. If God sends His grace for a sinner to repent, he will willingly surrender to God because that sinner will recognize God’s goodness.

It’s hard to see it any other way. If God can’t save those whom he has preordained, then He is not much of a God, is He? It begs the question whether God actually wants every human being to be saved which leads to another of Calvin’s points…limited atonement. Short answer …no. And that is the single most disturbing of Calvin’s five points. But people (Catholics and protestants) are very ignorant on how OSAS is interlocked with the other 4 points.

It is God who sends His grace to His elect. It is He who gives them faith. He who brings them to repentance. Who inspires and directs their good works. And who will ultimately bring them to glory. He does this because He mercifully loves them. It is not an abusive and coercive relationship. It really is rather humbling to imagine that a person can be so undeserving of such unconditional love yet still receive it. That is what the true fruit of OSAS is supposed to be. Humility not license.

All you have to do to emphasize your point is go to the great apostle Paul - see 2Corinthians 3:12-18

Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation, which the Bible says He prepared and purposed before the foundation of the world. If a person says Hebrews 6 is a Christian and they deny the faith, then the rest of the passage says there no longer remains a way of salvation - that is it you are cooked - pun intended. It would mean that once you were saved, then you turned away and are now lost, then there is no coming back. I have heard this referred to as once your lost after being saved, then you are lost forever. It is not taught in Scripture and no one, including the saved can snatch oneself out of the hand of God; He will treat you as He did Jonah as he tried to run from God and man was he chastened by god, you an run but you can’t hide and all children do this to their father from time to time and the fathers do discipline their children to bring them back in line and likewise God does the same with His children just as God teaches in His Word.

So you may be a Christian and not believe in the once God has you that is it camp, but you will believe it and be thankful if you are a Christian. If you are not a Christian, then pray for forgiveness and ask God to remove the blindness.

If you say it is a non-Christian, which it is, then the passage speaks of an apostate which is a person that has all the knowledge and participated with the life of believers, and never in their heart truly believed and the greatest example is Judas Iscariot. Can someone argue that He was once saved , then lost? I pity the person who could make a case for Judas Iscariot since he was determined as the son of perdition long before he was ever born.

 

[Pat_De]

ah yes tulip. needless to say my friend i no longer ascribe to this of course. and neither do most protestants. just a couple points, and there is neither time on my side at this point to delve to deep into this, but it is written, that God wills that ALL men would come to him. not just a selected few. and it is also written, do not grieve the Holy Spirit, wherin you were sealed for the day of redemption. a person can resist the Holy Spirit. jacobus arminius certainly saw some very serious flaws with Calvins theology. he and his followers paid dearly for disagreeing with Calvinism. these are just paraphrase on my part. my bible is packed. hopefully, i dont get it confiscated where im going. will pick this up with you more in depth, at a later date. Peace to you and yours. i do love how knowledgeable you are. do you have a teaching career?

If God wanted ALL men in heaven, then All would be in Heaven, but then His attribute of mercy would not be displayed and His justice would be in question since the standard is perfection and ALL have fallen short. Most of the time that ALL is used refers to ALL tribes tongues ages races Et Al, not All as in every single person that ever lived.

Calvin is correct on all of his points and he was a great scholar and theologian of the Bible because he spent so much time in the word of God and using it to lift people out of the darkness and into the light of God and god uses mighty and faithful men to move mountains of souls into His kingdom and rock the boat of religion.

Rather than looking at what men said of Calvin, perhaps learning more about what achieved by God’s grace and how he taught Scripture and how God used that faithfulness and obedience to His glory by comparing what Calvin said against what the Bible teaches.

You may very well reach a very different conclusion and Luther likewise. “Boat Rockers” that God used to lift lifted many souls to the heights of heaven.

 

[benidict]

If God wanted ALL men in heaven, then All would be in Heaven, but then His attribute of mercy would not be displayed and His justice would be in question since the standard is perfection and ALL have fallen short. Most of the time that ALL is used refers to ALL tribes tongues ages races Et Al, not All as in every single person that ever lived.

Calvin is correct on all of his points and he was a great scholar and theologian of the Bible because he spent so much time in the word of God and using it to lift people out of the darkness and into the light of God and god uses mighty and faithful men to move mountains of souls into His kingdom and rock the boat of religion.

Rather than looking at what men said of Calvin, perhaps learning more about what achieved by God’s grace and how he taught Scripture and how God used that faithfulness and obedience to His glory by comparing what Calvin said against what the Bible teaches.

You may very well reach a very different conclusion and Luther likewise. “Boat Rockers” that God used to lift lifted many souls to the heights of heaven.

my dear friend i was raised Calvinist. having been indoctrinated with it in my youth. so yes, after having studied his life, and his theology, i have weighed it in the balance, i have measured it against scripture and tradition, and it has been found wanting. very much so. Peace to you and yours.

 

[Pat_De]

Wow! That is your choice. I reject it with all my heart and soul. I do not buy it!

That is a shame and a death wish since what Calvin taught God used to lift many souls. Calvin did not invent anything he was just a brilliant expositor of Scripture because he was gifted by God and in his obedience to the Word; God used him in a mighty way to articulate and rightly divide the Word of Truth just as he did Luther and others. To reject what Calvin brilliantly articulated is to reject the direct teaching of God which is a rejection of the Word of God, which is why I state it is a death wish, but you can only study what Calvin taught and thoroughly compare it to the Bible and drawl your own conclusion and perhaps you have done that???

 

[Jimmy_B]

All you have to do to emphasize your point is go to the great apostle Paul - see 2Corinthians 3:12-18

Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation, which the Bible says He prepared and purposed before the foundation of the world. If a person says Hebrews 6 is a Christian and they deny the faith, then the rest of the passage says there no longer remains a way of salvation - that is it you are cooked - pun intended. It would mean that once you were saved, then you turned away and are now lost, then there is no coming back. I have heard this referred to as once your lost after being saved, then you are lost forever. It is not taught in Scripture and no one, including the saved can snatch oneself out of the hand of God; He will treat you as He did Jonah as he tried to run from God and man was he chastened by god, you an run but you can’t hide and all children do this to their father from time to time and the fathers do discipline their children to bring them back in line and likewise God does the same with His children just as God teaches in His Word.

So you may be a Christian and not believe in the once God has you that is it camp, but you will believe it and be thankful if you are a Christian. If you are not a Christian, then pray for forgiveness and ask God to remove the blindness.

If you say it is a non-Christian, which it is, then the passage speaks of an apostate which is a person that has all the knowledge and participated with the life of believers, and never in their heart truly believed and the greatest example is Judas Iscariot. Can someone argue that He was once saved , then lost? I pity the person who could make a case for Judas Iscariot since he was determined as the son of perdition long before he was ever born.

Hello Pat De,

You wrote -

“Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”

Sin separates us from God…

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

Hebrews 6:10
*For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones. *

Hebrews 6:11
*We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end, *

Hebrews 6:12
*so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises. *

Hebrews 6:18
so that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge might be strongly encouraged to hold fast to the hope that lies before us.

*_____________________________________ *

Hebrew 6 supports Catholic doctrine. This is what happens when someone uses a Catholic book, the Bible, to try to disprove a Catholic truth, a Bible verse, book, or chapter is taken out of context.

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

 

[Pitcharan]

Hello Pat De,

You wrote -

“Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”

Sin separates us from God…

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love you have demonstrated for his name by having served and continuing to serve the holy ones.

Hebrews 6:11
We earnestly desire each of you to demonstrate the same eagerness for the fulfillment of hope until the end,

Hebrews 6:12
so that you may not become sluggish, but imitators of those who, through faith and patience, are inheriting the promises.

Hebrews 6:18
so that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge might be strongly encouraged to hold fast to the hope that lies before us.

*_____________________________________ *

Hebrew 6 supports Catholic doctrine. This is what happens when someone uses a Catholic book, the Bible, to try to disprove a Catholic truth, a Bible verse, book, or chapter is taken out of context.

Which verse in Hebrews 6 are your referring to?

Hi Jimmy,
you have misunderstood Pat completely. When he said “Hebrews 6 shuts the door completely on those that would say they can move in and out of God’s salvation”, obviously he means those who don’t demonstrate any eagerness for fulfillment of the hope (of salvation) and are sluggish

Regards
Pitcharan

 

[Jimmy_B]

That is a shame and a death wish since what Calvin taught God used to lift many souls. Calvin did not invent anything he was just a brilliant expositor of Scripture because he was gifted by God and in his obedience to the Word; God used him in a mighty way to articulate and rightly divide the Word of Truth just as he did Luther and others. To reject what Calvin brilliantly articulated is to reject the direct teaching of God which is a rejection of the Word of God, which is why I state it is a death wish, but you can only study what Calvin taught and thoroughly compare it to the Bible and drawl your own conclusion and perhaps you have done that???

Hello again Pat De,

You wrote that -

“Calvin did not invent anything he was just a brillian texpositor of Scripture”

John Calvin said -

“Wherever we find the Word of God surely preached and heard, and the sacraments administered according to the institution of Christ, there, it is not to be doubted, is a church of God.”
**
Sounds like he is supporting the Catholic Church here…

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But then again, he also said -

“There is no work, however vile or sordid, that does not glisten before God.”
And -

“We must remember that Satan has his miracles, too.”
**
I am reminded of Martin Luther’s quote -

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*“No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.” *
Right? Please, let me know if I have misquoted either Luther or Calvin.

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Thank you for your post.

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Your thoughts?