“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[estesbob]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

Baptism-as Scripture clearly states.

 

[justasking4]

How do you know you are one of the sheep? Remember, the path is narrow and many will say they belong to him and will do great works but Jesus will tell them that He never knew them.

So how do you know you are one of the sheep?

Good question and one that is addressed in I Corinthians 13:5-6 when he writes–

5 **Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! **Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Paul is certainly saying that there are ways to determine if we are Christians or not. There are a number of “tests” that we can look at and see if we are in line with Christ.

To answer your question directly we can go to a couple of places where we have the witness of the Spirit. I think John 10:27-28 is a good place to start:
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The other place where something like this is mentioned is found in Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

No doubt there is some kind of internal witness in our spirits that we are in Christ.

 

[justasking4]

Hello estebob,

All true… and I have seen “Born-Again”, Evangelical Churches who actually count the number of people who come forward at each serviced…“to be saved” and they keep a running tally…

Maybe someone here who goes to a Church like this, or has gone to a Church like this in the past, could explain what this is all about.

Very good point!

Peace

I suppose most if not all churches want to keep track of how many people go to their churches. Does not the catholic church boast how many memebers it has?

 

[MrS]

I suppose most if not all churches want to keep track of how many people go to their churches. Does not the catholic church boast how many memebers it has?

No.

We just understand that everyone in Heaven is and will be Catholic. When we die we will see the beatific vision. Upon perfection, we will enter heaven and all Truth will be revealed. There will be one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism. All will be in unity. It will have to be the unity, the Church, which Jesus founded… and there is no other that can claim that. So for the boast, I supposed we could boast in what He has done in and for us… given us His Church, and Himself in the Eucharist

On the other side, all in hell will be Catholic too. Upon death, they too see the beatific vision, and all Truth is revealed to them. For whatever reason, they have rejected God and have condemned themselves…but they still have One Lord, One Faith, and one Baptism … they just will be deprived for eternity.

.

 

[SIA]

IAW the new World Christian Encyclopedia, published by Oxford University Press:

adherents.com/misc/WCE.html

I didn’t see each one listed which still leaves me very skepital that there are really that many denominations.

 

[Ronald_E]

Good question and one that is addressed in I Corinthians 13:5-6 when he writes–

5 **Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! **Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Paul is certainly saying that there are ways to determine if we are Christians or not. There are a number of “tests” that we can look at and see if we are in line with Christ.

To answer your question directly we can go to a couple of places where we have the witness of the Spirit. I think John 10:27-28 is a good place to start:
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The other place where something like this is mentioned is found in Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

No doubt there is some kind of internal witness in our spirits that we are in Christ.

This does not answer how you know you are one of the sheep. There is no indication here of evidence that you know you are one of the sheep.

 

[guanophore]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

I think that Catholics understand this the same way Protestants do. What often differs is how it occurs, and what the effects are. Catholics believe that being born again of water and spirit refers to baptism, which is the normal means by which we are made members of His Body. We also believe that we are infused with His spirit when we are born again and we are a new creation, set free from the Kingdom of darkness,and transferred into the Kingdom of Light.

 

[guanophore]

However, the “unless” is not to be taken as “alone” as if it were the only requirement period. Like the word “believe”, there are a lot of things we can and should, and even must do (yes DO ) as we work ( ) our way to heaven.

I agree that faith is not separated from the works that are produced by grace. However, I think it is engenders misunderstanding to say we “work our way to heaven”. I say this because to the Protestant, it sounds as if we can somehow make this happen of ourselves. I think it is much clearer to use the scriptural language of “working out our salvation”. This carries a very different meaning, especially to the Protestant. We work out what is working in us. By HIs grace, we conduct ourselves in such a manner to be worthy of the calling to which we are called. This gives the impression that we are living out what is already alive within us - “working out” as opposed to “working on”. The work we do proceeds from the saving grace in which we stand, by faith. This is why the Apostle says “not of works, lest any man should boast”. Salvation is based on grace, through faith. Yet that grace produces within us the good works that are the fruit of it. I am tired, and I am not sure this makes sense.

Baptism is what God does to us. It is His imparting the grace we need to answer that original sin, and partake of the inhieritance of heaven. So if one really understood the power of the Sacrament, one would understand that to even want to be re-baptized is like telling God that He must not have done it right the first time.

I agree with this. I was baptized three times, because I thought maybe it didn’t “take”! God have mercy.

I suppose the list of Scripture verses could be added here like "take up your cross", and "sell everything", and "unless you eat....", and all the to-do list in Romans. But the bottom line is that following Christ is a work in itself. The simplistic answer that all we need is an altar call, a sinner's prayer, and a belief (but not in the truth of, say, John 6) is potential disaster for our souls.

One of these days I am going to make a list of all the “to do’s” in scripture. I like this:

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and** teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded **you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What must we do to be saved? Obey all that He has commanded.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4003952]
Quote:
Originally Posted by sola_scriptura
I suppose the list of Scripture verses could be added here like “take up your cross”, and “sell everything”, and “unless you eat…”, and all the to-do list in Romans. But the bottom line is that following Christ is a work in itself. The simplistic answer that all we need is an altar call, a sinner’s prayer, and a belief (but not in the truth of, say, John 6) is potential disaster for our souls.

guanophore
One of these days I am going to make a list of all the “to do’s” in scripture. I like this:

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What must we do to be saved? Obey all that He has commanded.

Where do you get the idea to be saved you must obey all that He has commanded? If this is true then no one is saved.

 

[MrS]

Where do you get the idea to be saved you must obey all that He has commanded? If this is true then no one is saved.

If saved could mean (and I think it could ) that one has acquired total holiness ( which is why we were made in the first place), and if we all understood that total holiness is possible only without any stain of sin (…nothing unclean shall enter heaven), then

Actually to be “saved” we must be (not just at one moment) holy as He is holy. We all need Jesus to be saved… not for Him to do it for us, but for us to be more like Him.

Sin, any sin, detractes from perfect holiness. It concerned Luther so much that he went overboard… snow just covers a dung heap, OSAS, SS, SF, etc to try and apease his own radical ideas.

So are we ever saved in this life… no. St Paul knew that, and asked for the prayers of others that he might not fail. We have to work ( ) it out in fear and trembling, knowing that our justification is an ongoing process and that at any time we might sadly reject our inheiritance.

 

[distracted]

And the idea that Satan might have blessed others through a Billy Graham event is a shameful thing to say and it shows you truely do not understand God working in the lives of non-Catholics.

it is a shameful thing to put words in someone else’s mouth… very dishonest…

but whatever… i should be used to that on the forums by now… :yawn:

 

[distracted]

We all need Jesus to be saved… not for Him to do it for us, but for us to be more like Him.

actually it is better, in my opinion, to let Jesus do it for us… but we even have to DO something to accomplish THAT… We have to allow Him to… & that is far easier said than done… It is easy to do as “one-time” thing (sort of) but not easy to do on day-to-day basis…

Sin, any sin, detractes from perfect holiness. It concerned Luther so much that he went overboard… snow just covers a dung heap, OSAS, SS, SF, etc to try and apease his own radical ideas.

So are we ever saved in this life… no. St Paul knew that, and asked for the prayers of others that he might not fail. We have to work ( ) it out in fear and trembling, knowing that our justification is an ongoing process and that at any time we might sadly reject our inheiritance.

I like the way you say this…

Purgatory is supposed to be more painful than doing our Purgatory on this earth… but it has one thing to recommend it… there aren’t the distractions that are here on Earth (being around un-regenerate people… etc…)… There are so mnay temptations in this world… No wonder there are “few who find” the road to eteranl life… :hypno:

 

[ellammcg]

One of these days I am going to make a list of all the “to do’s” in scripture.

Actually, I have been writing down some of those verses that pertain to salvation as I read through the New Testament.
Here is an interesting Protestant site (one of many) that refutes OSAS:
evangelicaloutreach.org/initial.htm
FYI, I don’t think Bible verses will help convince some people. In my Scofield reference Bible I was absolutely stunned at some of his conclusions about different verses, they just completely defy common sense. If we Protestants are truly sola scriptura, why do we need someone else to reinterpret verses that are obvious to conform to what someone else tells us we are supposed to believe?

Matthew 10:22 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.“
Matthew 10:32-33 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
Matthew 12:36-37 “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
Matthew 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:13 “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”
Romans 3:25 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God”
Romans 8:1 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 “For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.”
Philippians 2:12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”
Hebrews 5:9 “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”
James 1:12 “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”
James 2:24 “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
James 5:9 “Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.”
1 John 2:17 “And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
1 John 2:24 “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.”
Revelation 2:7 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.”
Revelation 2:10 “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
Revelation 2:17 “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.”

 

[distracted]

It seems the term “born again” is a little maligned in some catholic circles. Jesus did state a person must be born again to see the kingdom of God. What does being “born again” mean to Catholics?

water baptism…

spiritual born again is called, in the RCC being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[guanophore]

Where do you get the idea to be saved you must obey all that He has commanded? If this is true then no one is saved.

I posted the Great Commission, where Jesus told the Apostles to baptize, and teach “all that I have commanded”. Where do you get the idea that following Jesus’ commandments is optional?

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15-16

Do you imagine that God wants someone to spend eternity with Him who does not love HIm? Did He not create another realm for persons that don’t love HIm?

John 15:10
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love."

Do you imagine that “salvation” is something different than abiding in the love of God?

" Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:1-5

Why would “no one” be saved? Do you find His commandments burdensome?

Could someone who does not keep his commandments rightfully be called a child of God?

 

[distracted]

I
Do you imagine that God wants someone to spend eternity with Him who does not love HIm? Did He not create another realm for persons that don’t love HIm?

?

i believe everyone who hears about Jesus believes in him, to some extent or another… People are created in God’s imagine and therefore have the ability to know truth when they hear it… that is why some end up Hell… they go against truth (reality)… and when they do, they KNOW they do… it is not like they are ignorant of what thye are doing… God doesn’t hold ignorance against a person…

So i don’t know why people always try to soften the doctrine of Hell… or Purgatory… or throw out (that last one) altogether. It just makes logical sense… that if you go against God and reality (spiritual reality) , there are going to be horrendous consequences…
but i guess some would rather “have fun” temporarily (have the world) than be logical about eternity… (?)

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4005287]I posted the Great Commission, where Jesus told the Apostles to baptize, and teach “all that I have commanded”. Where do you get the idea that following Jesus’ commandments is optional?

Here is what i was responding to:
"guanophore
One of these days I am going to make a list of all the “to do’s” in scripture. I like this:

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What must we do to be saved? Obey all that He has commanded."

Following Jesus commands is no optional but keeping them all to be saved is not what He taught as the way to be saved.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15-16

Do you imagine that God wants someone to spend eternity with Him who does not love HIm? Did He not create another realm for persons that don’t love HIm?

The mere fact that a person does desire to keep His commands is an indicator of an unsaved person. It is the work of the HS in the heart of a believer that motivates that believer to want to love Christ and keep His commands. The unsaved do not have the Spirit of Christ in them so they are not motivated to keep His commands.

John 15:10
10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love."

Do you imagine that “salvation” is something different than abiding in the love of God?

This is part of it.

" Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith. 5 Who is it that conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:1-5

Why would “no one” be saved? Do you find His commandments burdensome?

If our salvation depends on our keeping the commands of Christ perfectly then no can be saved since that is impossible. They are not burdensome when i am in harmony with Him. They are burdensome at times when i have sinned (especially if its some singificant sin that may be hard to acknowledge).

Could someone who does not keep his commandments rightfully be called a child of God?

 

[guanophore]

"guanophore:

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

What must we do to be saved? Obey “all that He has commanded.”

Following Jesus commands is no optional but keeping them all to be saved is not what He taught as the way to be saved.

What does that mean? His commandments are not optional, but following them is not the way to be saved?

1 John 3:24
24 All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us.

Do you imagine that Christ abides in those who are not saved?
Do you think that He gives the Spirit to the unsaved?

The mere fact that a person does desire to keep His commands is an indicator of an unsaved person.

This does not make any sense. The carnal mind is hostile to God.

It is the work of the HS in the heart of a believer that motivates that believer to want to love Christ and keep His commands.

Well, at least we can agree about something!

The unsaved do not have the Spirit of Christ in them so they are not motivated to keep His commands.

So, we can then easily tell who is on the path of salvation by watching their behavior!

If our salvation depends on our keeping the commands of Christ perfectly then no can be saved since that is impossible.

Nothing is impossible with God. Perhaps you would like to visit the recent thread about keeping the commandments? God commands us to be perfect, as he is perfect.

They are not burdensome when i am in harmony with Him. They are burdensome at times when i have sinned (especially if its some singificant sin that may be hard to acknowledge).

I think this is the human experience.

guanophore:

Could someone who does not keep his commandments rightfully be called a child of God?

 

[SIA]

“Once Saved Always Saved” or “OSAS” is an errant belief that many Protestant Christians hold to and there are many different “Protestant” definitions of what “OSAS” actually means.

Which leads us to the second errant Protestant belief, which allows for the “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.

These two beliefs came from man’s ego and and his own intellect and not from God. They are both anti-biblical and anti-Christian, they are nonsensical and they do not work in the real world. They are both a contradiction.

Many more beliefs that are false have arose from these first two false beliefs (OSAS and Personal interpretation) and they have cause much division and many, million individual cases, where people actually belong to the “religion of their own intellect and ego” and not to any Church that Jesus Christ founded and that God intended for all men.

I am a Roman Catholic, so obviously I disagree with these two fabricated, man-made errors; “OSAS” and “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.

What are your thoughts?

Most Catholics do not understand what it is to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ although the Scriptures tell us that this is how we are saved. As an ex-cradle Catholic it is clear to see that most Catholics do not have a strong relationship in Christ and therefore do not fully trust him to save them without any works of their own. Scripture is very clear that you cannot do enough to save yourself, but the Catholic church just keeps on teaching that you must work your way. This is fear, not faith.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Most Catholics do not understand what it is to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ…most Catholics do not have a strong relationship in Christ.

Hello SIA,

Says who?

Although, there might be some truth in what you say here and there are, unfortunately, some Catholics who do not know or fully appreciate their own Catholic faith. I detect some self-centeredness in your remarks. Let’s remember that the “Catholic world” is not just the one that you have been exposed to. Catholicism has been around for 2000 years and exists in every country; 2500 plus dioceses, throughout the world. Therefore, to say that your comment here, is overly generalized or over-stated or over- exaggerated, would be an understatement.

How unfortunate it is that you didn’t learn, or appreciate your own Catholic faith, before you abandoned it. That’s ok though, because it’s never too late…

My hope is that you re-Learn, or learn about your Catholic faith and that you will one day come home.

I will say a prayer for you.

Thank you for your post.

God bless you.