“Once Saved Always Saved” ...

[justasking4]

guanophore;4029366]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Can you get the Catholic Church’ offical interpretation? That would help me to know what the church offically teaches about this.

guanophore
No, ja4, I don’t think that would help you at all. I think you have been shown the official Catholic teaching.

Since you have not produced the offical teaching-interpretation on this i’ll take that it either it does not exist or you don’t know what it is.

You either don’t understand it, or are simply rebellious against it. I pray that you ignorance is invicible. However, I don’t think it is healthy for you to continue in you efforts to malign Catholicism here on CAF. It would be safer to refrain from that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justasking4
A couple to look at would be:
(John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can’t lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39).

guanophore
Well, we understand eternal life differently, don’t we? Think of it as a river that aperson enters at a certain point in time. One can leave, and never come back. One’s choice to exit the river is no reflection on the nature of the river. It will still continue flowing because that is it’s nature.

Not sure i understand you here.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Now you have to ignore quite a lot of scripture (or twist it) to actually believe this. (jesus is the vine, we are the branches, some branches removed, and thrown in the fire …)

I didn’t quite mean it like it sounded … poor choice of words on my part. What I meant to say is that sin does separate us from God but Christ destroyed that barrier. So through faith sin no longer separates us from God. Sorry for the wording in the last post (must have been late).

Hebrews Chapter 7 is talking about Jesus being the perfect priest (as opposed to those in the temple).
Hebrews 7:26
[26] For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, blameless, unstained, separated from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Doesn’t sound like Jesus is snuggling up with sinners.
He came so that sins could be forgiven.
It is quite a different ‘take’ on it to say, that “sin does not separate us from God”.
We have to ASK for forgiveness?
We cannot enter His perfect heaven with the stain of sin on us.
Jesus doesn’t cover a stained soul, he actually CLEANS the sin out of it.
Jesus’ love is incompatible with sin. They are polar opposites. Sin is nothing less than turning away from Him. Sin is the absence of Jesus. Jesus and sin are incompatible.

YES! We agree.
We could never have gained redemption by our own efforts.

with love, brother

michel

Actually your post pushed me to do some study on Hebrews 7. It’s related to how the Levitical high priests would go into the sanctuary for seven days (separating themselves from sinners, first offering sacrifice for their own sins, then offering atonement for the congregation).

Christ didn’t need to first offer a sacrifice for Himself, since He was sinless. He is our high priest who offered one sacrifice for all sin.

 

[RobHom]

You will say how can a person one day say they’re saved and then go out the next day and murder or rape? I would say, for the most part, they cannot as I’m sure you would agree. However, we don’t put some illusory yardstick on grace.

I will agree to some extent…but the problem as I see it is that man has “free will” and is fully capable of doing just what he wants…even if “saved”.

For example, it seems unpinning Catholic doctrine in this area is some notion that the good must outweigh the bad. The idea really springs from the erroneous premise that we are not totally depraved and retain power over our sin nature. When we think this (as Pelagius did) then it’s no wonder we walk around second guessing our status with God.

I don’t think its the “good” outweighing the “bad” so much as it is that its an issue of free will. We are giving the ability to make choices freely by God. We choose to be depraved, or choose not to. We have the power of decision, because God gave us that power to decide what to do or not to do. I don’t see it so much as “second guessing”…its an issue of knowing versus not knowing…

When we understand that we are depraved and only grace can relieve our condition then things are easier to grasp.

The whole “depraved” thing is what I have a problem with. I have a very hard time with the notion that all humans are born corrupt, wicked, or perverted… Its fatalistic to the core. It denies reality.
Yes, I could be anyone of those things…but I choose not to.

I’m no fan of mass marketed Christianity, the prosperity Gospel nonsense, or the idea that we can go to church one day say “I’m saved” and then keep cheating on our wife and think gee glad I got that God thing out the way. The very idea teeters on blasphemy.

On that we certainly do agree!!

The thing to understand is the children of God will not remain in a life of sin (not to say we will not sin from time to time). We will get angry on occasion, we’ll see a pretty girl and think impure thoughts, we might lie here and there, but we won’t feel good about it and as we grow in faith we will do these things less. As Wesley would say – unto perfection (yes I even like a little Wesley).

In essence I see your point and can agree somewhat…because growth in faith is becoming more pleasing to God, and living according to his Word.

However, each time we sin we don’t need to torture ourselves in penance, however, we do need to pray to Christ because He is our one and only mediator and advocate before God. It’s not that He will forgive us, remember He has already forgiven us. Forgiveness is not an ongoing process, and election is a past act – already completed.

Where I have a problem with this…is that it would seem that from my experience, there are far too many people who actually do think that all they have to do is “be saved” and from then on out, its a “free ride to the Pearly Gates”. I have actually spoken with people who embrace this notion. I might also mention that they have some strange notions in other areas… I’m not being judgmental…just honest. Some of these people do believe that they can do anything they want…and nothing will prevent them from reaching Heaven…absolutely nothing.

That I cannot accept. I am a believer in the Holy Trinity, I have accepted Christ. I am a Catholic. I believe in Salvation. But I also believe that I must live according to God’s Word, and in doing so I must maintain myself according to His word, or come Judgment…I am subject to less than favorable judgment. Yes, Christ died for my sins… But if I sin…and I continue to sin after I have asked for and accepted His forgiveness… I can condemn myself for eternity.

I realize that their is much conflict and discussion over these points…but I think that too many times we as humans try to find a way of doing things that is just a little too comfortable. Christ commanded us to do things. Those things are considered “works” both Corporal and Spiritual. We don’t see these as “suggestions”… Christ’s Word carries far more weight than that. I see no need to inject other concepts…its clear as a can be what Christ wants and expects. We must strive to do to be worthy of the Salvation He has promised us.

Peace!

Agreed!

 

[minkymurph]

You will say how can a person one day say they’re saved and then go out the next day and murder or rape? I would say, for the most part, they cannot as I’m sure you would agree. However, we don’t put some illusory yardstick on grace.

Once we are ‘saved,’ do we no longer need to repent of sin? If we do need to why, if we have already been forgiven? People who have claimed to saved have committed acts of murder and rape. I know them personally and I know personally people who have knowingly influenced others to commit murder. If you say these people where never ‘really saved’ in the first place, I come back to a question I asked earlier. How can you know if anyone is ‘really saved?’

At the risk of being repetious, I would again like to draw attention to the questions I asked concerning Annas and Sapphira and Dorcas.

 

[ellammcg]

Where I have a problem with this…is that it would seem that from my experience, there are far too many people who actually do think that all they have to do is “be saved” and from then on out, its a “free ride to the Pearly Gates”. I have actually spoken with people who embrace this notion.

Evangelical, Fundamentals, etc. believe all of their sins are “covered” by the shed blood of Jesus Christ that is why it is really irrelevant whether they sin or not after they have been saved. (When I say irrelevant, I mean they will still go to heaven no matter what). The belief is that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future and therefore the sins we commit now and in the future have already been paid for.

 

[minkymurph]

Evangelical, Fundamentals, etc. believe all of their sins are “covered” by the shed blood of Jesus Christ that is why it is really irrelevant whether they sin or not after they have been saved. (When I say irrelevant, I mean they will still go to heaven no matter what). The belief is that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future and therefore the sins we commit now and in the future have already been paid for.

I don’t disagree that Christ’s shed blood covers all sin, but I believe in the sin of presumption which to me can be taking Christ’s shed blood for granted. Believing you will go to heaven no matter what is straying into this area.

I would also say that God is not compelled, neither does he guarantee that unrepented sin is automatically forgiven solely on the basis that we believe that Christ’s shed blood atones for sin. Cleansing of sin takes place only if there is true repentance and has an honest desire not to commit the same sin again. Hebrews also refers to Christ sacrifice as an ongoing sacrifice. He constantly pleads for us at the right hand of the Father. What does it mean to truely believe this?

To me, true belief involves more than accepting a certain theological view is the true one, or a certain interpretation of a passage of scripture is the true one. It involves living in accordance with that belief. As James states, faith without works is dead and the demons believe. Aquinas goes into an interesting debate on what true belief is and the distinction between beliefs we hold in light of irrevocable evidence or under compulsion, and beliefs we hold of our own free will.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Once we are ‘saved,’ do we no longer need to repent of sin? If we do need to why, if we have already been forgiven? People who have claimed to saved have committed acts of murder and rape. I know them personally and I know personally people who have knowingly influenced others to commit murder. If you say these people where never ‘really saved’ in the first place, I come back to a question I asked earlier. How can you know if anyone is ‘really saved?’

At the risk of being repetious, I would again like to draw attention to the questions I asked concerning Annas and Sapphira and Dorcas.

I believe being saved means we are in constant communion with God through Christ. Meaning, yes of course we confess our wrongdoing & since we do have faith we can trust in our advocate before God, Jesus. Those who believe in Him will never be put to shame, however, while we reside in this flesh we will never be perfect either.

There’s not “sin yardstick” and no such thing as the good outweighing the bad. Whatever good we do can never compensate for our sin, which is why we need grace. We cannot excel in the flesh before God. He saves us in spite of our depravity, in fact we need Him to save us because without God’s grace we are powerless over our depravity.

Those born of God will not be perfect but we will have a righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisee, through faith.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Whatever good we do can never compensate for our sin,

Is that in the bible somewhere?

 

[po18guy]

Evangelical, Fundamentals, etc. believe all of their sins are “covered” by the shed blood of Jesus Christ that is why it is really irrelevant whether they sin or not after they have been saved. (When I say irrelevant, I mean they will still go to heaven no matter what). The belief is that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future and therefore the sins we commit now and in the future have already been paid for.

And, no repentance required! What a deal they have. If only Christ agreed through scripture with that viewpoint.

 

[sola_scriptura]

I don’t think its the “good” outweighing the “bad” so much as it is that its an issue of free will. We are giving the ability to make choices freely by God. We choose to be depraved, or choose not to. We have the power of decision, because God gave us that power to decide what to do or not to do. I don’t see it so much as “second guessing”…its an issue of knowing versus not knowing…

This is probably the biggest disagreement between Catholics and Protestants more generally speaking – Total Depravity.

Obviously the reality you talk about exists – some people may never find faith yet be the most upstanding citizen we know. So from that vein we can say some are more “depraved” than others. However, Scripture clearly tells us this is not how God sees things. Just because one might be pleasing to their community, friends, family, neighbors, etc. doesn’t amount to a hill of beans with God.

Paul, an enthusiastic serial Christian killer, was saved in a single act of providence. Why do you think God picked such a man? One reason was to show us the nature of His grace.

During His ministry Jesus sat down with the most despicable sinners in His community, to the ire of the Pharisaic class. They were supposed to be the ones God loved more – not the sinners, they upheld the word, they kept the community in line, and they at least in an outward sense were obedient to the law.

The whole “depraved” thing is what I have a problem with. I have a very hard time with the notion that all humans are born corrupt, wicked, or perverted… Its fatalistic to the core. It denies reality.
Yes, I could be anyone of those things…but I choose not to.

Depravity and free will are correlated issues. As I said, God tells us that outside of faith works, no matter how good, are like filthy rags. Jesus tells us if you violate one commandment you violate them all. If you look at a woman with lust in your eyes you commit adultery.

This correlates with the idea, expressed throughout Scripture, that we are all sinners; and are all spiritually discerned. It is not through our free will that we avoid sin. Sure, as I said according to the terms of the society most people can be good even without faith in anything; and this “worldly” notion of goodness is often used to debunk total depravity. However, the devil could just as easily provoke one to outwardly seem good, honest, giving, etc. The devil will not always appear as some loathsome beast – he will also appear as an angel of light. The mission of the devil is to keep us separated from God – who only demands faith.

If a person professes to have faith but yet continues to lead an unrepentant life of debauchery then chances are they don’t really have faith & are not really saved.

Where I have a problem with this…is that it would seem that from my experience, there are far too many people who actually do think that all they have to do is “be saved” and from then on out, its a “free ride to the Pearly Gates”. I have actually spoken with people who embrace this notion. I might also mention that they have some strange notions in other areas… I’m not being judgmental…just honest. Some of these people do believe that they can do anything they want…and nothing will prevent them from reaching Heaven…absolutely nothing.

I agree. Anyone born of God cannot just do anything. We continue to be imperfect because of our flesh, however, we cannot live a life of unrepentant sin.

That I cannot accept. I am a believer in the Holy Trinity, I have accepted Christ. I am a Catholic. I believe in Salvation. But I also believe that I must live according to God’s Word, and in doing so I must maintain myself according to His word, or come Judgment…I am subject to less than favorable judgment. Yes, Christ died for my sins… But if I sin…and I continue to sin after I have asked for and accepted His forgiveness… I can condemn myself for eternity.

Well, penance is based on the idea that we have the ability to compensate for our sins. In other words it’s back to the scales of justice & like I said I do not believe God operates in such a way. If there were a way we could punish ourself to compensate for sin then what is the meaning of grace?

When we pray for forgiveness or talk to a fellow Christian about our sin and ask them to pray for us it’s not about penance. Christ paid the price for our sins.

I realize that their is much conflict and discussion over these points…but I think that too many times we as humans try to find a way of doing things that is just a little too comfortable. Christ commanded us to do things. Those things are considered “works” both Corporal and Spiritual. We don’t see these as “suggestions”… Christ’s Word carries far more weight than that. I see no need to inject other concepts…its clear as a can be what Christ wants and expects. We must strive to do to be worthy of the Salvation He has promised us.

Again I agree with this in a certain sense. Paul railed against the idea that Christianity was a permissive religion that somehow encouraged sin. It’s the Rasputin mentality & it’s as wrong today as it was back then. In fact I would go as far to say it’s probably blasphemous. Like I said witness to the Holy Spirit dwelling is us is a changed heart. In a certain sense those reborn of God lose their wicked affections or intentions. However, this still does not infer any idea that there’s anything we can do to compensate for our sins. We ask for forgiveness and we will be forgiven.

If one asks for forgiveness without a changed heart, without an intent to not repeat their mistakes, without a desire to obey God even in private, then they’re not saved to begin with so they’re asking in vein. In fact Jesus does not even know them.

 

[guanophore]

I just read over the whole chapter.
More specifically Paul is talking about *those that are *in Christ, in the spirit, living according to the spirit cannot be separated from the love of God.

This does not say that one cannot falter at living in the spirit by say … living according to the flesh (sinning?).

I would still agree that some outside thing doesn’t separate us from God, we do that ourselves when we sin.

It has me wondering though … God loves us regardless of what we believe, right. He loves all of his children. Even the athiests. … so God loving us isn’t the issue, it’s how we love God back, right?
Does God love those in hell, those that separated *themselves *from God?
Maybe I’ll start a thread with this question.

michel

This is a very good point. OSAS folks are really in a bind with this, and that is why they must say that a person who goes back to a sinful lifestyle “was never saved in the first place”. I agree that Paul is contrasting living in the flesh with living in the spirit. John also sheds more light on this point:

“Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. 10 The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.” 1 John 3:8-10

The question has been asked, if a person sins after getting “saved” then is that person “unborn again”? If everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil, then what about sins that occur after one prays “the sinners prayer”?

How is ones birth status determined according to the Apostle?

 

[MrS]

Evangelical, Fundamentals, etc. believe all of their sins are “covered” by the shed blood of Jesus Christ that is why it is really irrelevant whether they sin or not after they have been saved. (When I say irrelevant, I mean they will still go to heaven no matter what). The belief is that Jesus died for all of our sins past, present, and future and therefore the sins we commit now and in the future have already been paid for.

So do I understand you right… assuming “that the wages of sin is death”, that Jesus will pay that “wage”, and remain in hell for eternity of the sins that have that punishment??

.

 

[guanophore]

God forgives us for sin. Christ broke down the barrier of sin between God and man, so you’re wrong sin does not separate us from God.

The nature of sin itself did not change before the cross, and after.

The reason the barrier is broken is because the individual has the blood applied to himself by participating with Christ in His death. Sin continues to separate those who are not “in Christ”, and every person born is still under the penalty of death through original sin.

The blood of Christ does not save everyone from their sns.

Since the nature of sin has not changed, even those who are partakers of Christ can still become separated from Him by sin.

Through Christ we have redemption in spite of our sin nature (that is the whole purpose Jesus died after all).

Catholics will agree that Christ died that we might have LIFE within us. However, people that begin with Christ do not always continue in the process of sanctification in which we are redeemed of our sin nature. This is a continual process that can be abandoned.

2 Tim. 4:18, "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

If you look at the whole of Paul’s writings, you will find dozens of uses of the word “if”. This deliverance is contingent upon continuing with Him.

" Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked." 1 John 2:3-6

We in the reformed community believe there is no such thing as falling in and out of grace.

Yes. This is why we of the Apostolic faiths consider that you have departed to this extent from Apostolic teaching. One cannot be saved without grace.

If one loses faith at some future point we believe they never really had faith to begin with.

This is not scriptural, or part of Apostolic teaching. It constitutes a “different gospel”.

 

[Jimmy_B]

What must we do to be saved? Obey all that He has commanded.

Are you saying that we shouldn’t, "Obey all that He (God) has commanded?

 

[distracted]

The nature of sin itself did not change before the cross, and after.

".

Thank you!! :clapping: :clapping:

 

[SIA]

“Once Saved Always Saved” or “OSAS” is an errant belief that many Protestant Christians hold to and there are many different “Protestant” definitions of what “OSAS” actually means.

Which leads us to the second errant Protestant belief, which allows for the “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.

These two beliefs came from man’s ego and and his own intellect and not from God. They are both anti-biblical and anti-Christian, they are nonsensical and they do not work in the real world. They are both a contradiction.

Many more beliefs that are false have arose from these first two false beliefs (OSAS and Personal interpretation) and they have cause much division and many, million individual cases, where people actually belong to the “religion of their own intellect and ego” and not to any Church that Jesus Christ founded and that God intended for all men.

I am a Roman Catholic, so obviously I disagree with these two fabricated, man-made errors; “OSAS” and “Personal Interpretation of the Bible”.

What are your thoughts?

I believe that you not correct on this. I think that if a person is truly saved, they are always saved. Now, this doesn’t go without saying that there are many many folks who claim that they have been saved for one reason or another but are truly not changed by Jesus and therefore are not yet saved. When these persons fall away for obvious reasons, they are not saved because they truly never were, but when your name is written in the book of life, it is written in permanent ink. I think Paul spoke of us needing to know and have great certainty when we are truly saved.

 

[sola_scriptura]

The nature of sin itself did not change before the cross, and after.

The reason the barrier is broken is because the individual has the blood applied to himself by participating with Christ in His death. Sin continues to separate those who are not “in Christ”, and every person born is still under the penalty of death through original sin.

I elaborated on my earlier statement (see above).

Satan always seeks to divide us from God. Even though our inequities are forgiven the devil wants us to think otherwise. Indeed witness to our standing with God is a changed heart. This doesn’t infer perfection, since we can never excel in the flesh. However, it requires a purity of intention. Romans 7 is an excellent chapter on this issue. Even Paul could not attain the perfection he desired. However, he never allowed his fleshly imperfection to make a shipwreck of his faith. He kept on to the finish, and endured to the end.

The blood of Christ does not save everyone from their sns.

Hey, that’s my line

I’m the Presbyterian … indeed the blood of Christ will only save the elect!

Since the nature of sin has not changed, even those who are partakers of Christ can still become separated from Him by sin.

Catholics will agree that Christ died that we might have LIFE within us. However, people that begin with Christ do not always continue in the process of sanctification in which we are redeemed of our sin nature. This is a continual process that can be abandoned.

If you look at the whole of Paul’s writings, you will find dozens of uses of the word “if”. This deliverance is contingent upon continuing with Him.

I never said otherwise.

" Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked." 1 John 2:3-6

I never said we are not to obey the commandments.

The law is a burden for those without a changed heart, who do not have the spirit dwelling within them. However, for those who pursue righteousness through faith the law is written on our hearts.

Yes. This is why we of the Apostolic faiths consider that you have departed to this extent from Apostolic teaching. One cannot be saved without grace.

Again your borrowing from the reformed play book. The only way we are saved is by grace through faith.

This is not scriptural, or part of Apostolic teaching. It constitutes a “different gospel”.

You say that without providing any Scriptural authority?

 

[sola_scriptura]

This is not scriptural, or part of Apostolic teaching. It constitutes a “different gospel”.

I guess what you’re trying to say is that being “saved” is different than being predestined? That we can have the Holy Spirit dwelling within us one day and lose faith the next? Essentially I agree with you (in a sense).

Many are called but few are chosen. The Holy Spirit is only one aspect of grace; and it’s persuasions can be resisted (and will be by most). However, the shaping of human history right down to the most minute detail, including forming us in the womb, by providence making it so one is born in one place and the other is born in a different place, putting us in the family and circumstances we are born into, etc. are all done by God – this is divine providence.

This doesn’t mean God will ensure His elect are all born kings and queens. Sometimes we are born into miserable circumstances, perhaps we personally went through many bad patches in life, however, God even draws His elect in these ways.

We are not only elected for salvation, but also for a purpose here on earth. As I said this doesn’t mean we will all be born into good fortune, rather some might be born in the African desert somewhere and by what might seem like pure luck run into a missionary. Then that person may go onto save many souls in his own land.

God is good, and in Him resides no evil at all. However, His good purposes have included destroying cities, flooding the earth, and so forth. We like to think only the devil does these things, but the devil cannot operate outside of God’s will. By thinking the devil operates unilaterally we essentially endorse un-Christian dualism.

My point is predestination means predestination. Moreover, nothing happens by chance with God. He is never surprised by human affairs. He shapes our history. Those given to Christ can never be snatched out His hands.

However, we must seek our salvation with fear and trembling; and we must make our calling and election sure. This obviously implies affirmative duties for the Christian. However, once again if we don’t live up to these duties we obviously weren’t predestined to begin with; and moreover, those who are predestined are elected by grace.

If we endure then it is by grace that we endure.

 

[Ronald_E]

A question. Isn’t the law also written in the hearts of those who do not know Christ? I do not have my bible with me right now, but I did read in the past that those who listen to the law that is in their hearts and act accordingly they will be judged by Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

I believe being saved means we are in constant communion with God through Christ. Meaning, yes of course we confess our wrongdoing & since we do have faith we can trust in our advocate before God, Jesus. Those who believe in Him will never be put to shame, however, while we reside in this flesh we will never be perfect either.

It is very Catholic of you to say this! This is why Catholics believe that a person whose communion with Christ is lost (not being in a state of grace) compromise their salvation.

There’s not “sin yardstick” and no such thing as the good outweighing the bad. Whatever good we do can never compensate for our sin, which is why we need grace.

Well, to an extent, I think we are in agreement. However, scripture states that there are some sins that are “worse” than others (there are degrees) and that good does, indeed, compenstate for sins. Perhaps a better way to say it would be that the good we do compensates (makes amends for) our sins.
I agree that no amount of effort on our part does any good without grace.

We cannot excel in the flesh before God. He saves us in spite of our depravity, in fact we need Him to save us because without God’s grace we are powerless over our depravity.

Good deeds, through which reparations for sins are made, are not done" in the flesh" but are done in the Spirit. However, I agree that we cannot please God while acting " in the flesh". We do need HIm to save us, but He saves us for the purpose of doing good works.

Those born of God will not be perfect but we will have a righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisee, through faith.

Why do you suppose Jesus would command something that is impossible?