“Sweating” of Jesus in the tomb where he was laid hints Jesus lived

[cerad]

But wait … there’s more! :yup:

Firstly we need to remember that there were Roman soldiers set to guard Jesus’ tomb. That in itself was unprecedented. Why guard the tomb of a criminal?

And we know this happened because…? Oh that’s right it’s in the bible so it must be accurate. How about referencing some Roman documentation about the event. Surely something this important would have been worth a mention or two somewhere.

 

[Eucharisted]

boloji.com/opinion/0206.htm
Did Jesus Die in India?
by Kusum Choppra

”According to Kersten and some scientists, it was the “sweating” of the body under the shroud permeated with aloe and myrrh that left the unique and detailed impression on the linen shroud which confounded investigations for centuries.
Using the latest available scientific techniques, Kersten has established the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin and used it to bolster his argument that Jesus lived”

Faith is required to say the shroud belonged to Jesus, since the best science can come up with is that a man who was crucified was buried in the cloth. I’m not saying this because I doubt Jesus didn’t die, I’m saying it because it’s a fact, and it has been a well known fact for a long time in the scientific world. It’s why there have been many tests done that have come out negative, i.e., that the shroud didn’t belong to Jesus. Whether or not the shroud really was the one Jesus was buried in is not know, scientifically. Nonetheless, as the old saying goes: for those who believe, no proof is necessary, and for those who do not believe, no proof is sufficent.

 

[R_not]

If the muslims are so sure Jesus didn’t die then how do they explain when He ascended into heaven?

Anyway, I have a dumb question - I thought the Shroud was not authenticated and it was in fact ‘created’ sometime in the Medieval times which is more than 1,000 years after Jesus was crucified? And some say that it was burned and that skewed the carbon dating.

Anyway, I didn’t know that we are to take the shroud as proof of anything.

I, personally, don’t need it for any of my faith. And there were a whole heck of a lot of men who died by crucifixion over the ages. The image on the shroud could be one of so many individuals.

Look at islam - their koran has crucifixion as a way to tortore/kill the ones who don’t want to be muslims (‘waging war against islam’ can be as simple as rejecting islam):

The Quran in Sura 5:33 says:

5:33 Those who wage war against God and His Messenger and strive to spread corruption in the land should be punished by death, crucifixion, the amputation of an alternate hand and foot or banishment from the land: a disgrace for them in this world, and then a terrible punishment in the Hereafter . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

The Quran in Sura 7:124 says through the mouth of Pharaoh:

“Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross.” (Yusuf Ali)

Torture in the koran

But, I digress as to what mohammed commanded vs what the muslims believe about what happened to Jesus.

 

[ralphinal]

If the muslims are so sure Jesus didn’t die then how do they explain when He ascended into heaven?

Anyway, I have a dumb question - I thought the Shroud was not authenticated and it was in fact ‘created’ sometime in the Medieval times which is more than 1,000 years after Jesus was crucified? And some say that it was burned and that skewed the carbon dating.

Anyway, I didn’t know that we are to take the shroud as proof of anything.

I, personally, don’t need it for any of my faith. And there were a whole heck of a lot of men who died by crucifixion over the ages. The image on the shroud could be one of so many individuals.

Look at islam - their koran has crucifixion as a way to tortore/kill the ones who don’t want to be muslims (‘waging war against islam’ can be as simple as rejecting islam):

Torture in the koran

But, I digress as to what mohammed commanded vs what the muslims believe about what happened to Jesus.

The carbon dating done on the shroud 20 years ago was flawed. they used samples that had been damaged in a fire, thus throwing off the process. More recent tests have shown it to be possibly dated from the correct era

 

[planten]

There is no evidence to that fact. Consider that he was crucified by the Romans. As Roman soliders they were to make sure that all three were dead. If they were not, they were to break their legs which I assume would bring on death soon. When they examined Jesus they found him to be dead and they did not break his legs. A Roman solider not performing his duty would have been subjected to harsh punishment. Your statement has no basis in fact and is false.

**Roman soldiers were well advised by the wishes of Pilate. Pilate (and his wife) did not want Jesus to be harmed even. Pilate tried his best but could not avoid handing Jesus over to the enemies.

At the place of the Crucifixion, nobody could say that Jesus was not dead. It would have been harmful to Jesus. There was no excuse not to break the legs. But since every one pleaded that he was an honest good man of God (Even the Roman soldier praised Jesus after jesus was brought down from the Cross) and that he was really dead, no need to break his legs, he was spared from severe damage.

It is defeinite that Jesus was alive and he had only fainted on the cross. Suppose that they broke his legs. Then after resurrection,he would be without proper legs, would he not? Coming back to life (i.e. resurrection) has no meaning, no need at all. There is no need to kill him and then bring him back. What use is that? Why is that so important? What purpose does it serve?

It makes a bad point that Jesus being a God died. God died is not good. Also, according to Deut 18:18, it is not good that Jesus die at all withing a few years of his preachings. That will prove that he was a false prophet and a cursed person too. Double defect.

The words resuurection is being used so often. At the same time, earlier versions were that Jesus got up. That is simple and more understandable that Jesus got up from the lying down position. We Muslimsbelieve that Jesus did not die on the cross and he was not a cursed person.

New discoveries prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. God also did not want that Jesus should die on the cross. Jessu also did not want that type of death and Jesus prayed in the gardenbefore his arrest to avoid the cup. All is there in the bible too. An angel was strengthening him. That means the angel was giving him surety that he will not die and his prayer to his God was accepted.

His words on the cross “O my Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?” also prove that he was given assurance that he would not die on the cross. But seeing all the conditions for death were appearing real and that he was about to die, he called out to his Lord (GOD) and trie dto remind God about his promise of saving him from death.**

 

[paarsurrey]

**Roman soldiers were well advised by the wishes of Pilate. Pilate (and his wife) did not want Jesus to be harmed even. Pilate tried his best but could not avoid handing Jesus over to the enemies.

At the place of the Crucifixion, nobody could say that Jesus was not dead. It would have been harmful to Jesus. There was no excuse not to break the legs. But since every one pleaded that he was an honest good man of God (Even the Roman soldier praised Jesus after jesus was brought down from the Cross) and that he was really dead, no need to break his legs, he was spared from severe damage.

It is defeinite that Jesus was alive and he had only fainted on the cross. Suppose that they broke his legs. Then after resurrection,he would be without proper legs, would he not? Coming back to life (i.e. resurrection) has no meaning, no need at all. There is no need to kill him and then bring him back. What use is that? Why is that so important? What purpose does it serve?

It makes a bad point that Jesus being a God died. God died is not good. Also, according to Deut 18:18, it is not good that Jesus die at all withing a few years of his preachings. That will prove that he was a false prophet and a cursed person too. Double defect.

The words resuurection is being used so often. At the same time, earlier versions were that Jesus got up. That is simple and more understandable that Jesus got up from the lying down position. We Muslimsbelieve that Jesus did not die on the cross and he was not a cursed person.

New discoveries prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. God also did not want that Jesus should die on the cross. Jessu also did not want that type of death and Jesus prayed in the gardenbefore his arrest to avoid the cup. All is there in the bible too. An angel was strengthening him. That means the angel was giving him surety that he will not die and his prayer to his God was accepted.

His words on the cross “O my Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?” also prove that he was given assurance that he would not die on the cross. But seeing all the conditions for death were appearing real and that he was about to die, he called out to his Lord (GOD) and trie dto remind God about his promise of saving him from death.**

Hi

I agree with you.

Thans

 

[swariffin]

boloji.com/opinion/0206.htm
Did Jesus Die in India?
by Kusum Choppra

”According to Kersten and some scientists, it was the “sweating” of the body under the shroud permeated with aloe and myrrh that left the unique and detailed impression on the linen shroud which confounded investigations for centuries.
Using the latest available scientific techniques, Kersten has established the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin and used it to bolster his argument that Jesus lived”

If you believe that it is true, then it must be mentioned in Quran. Quran was “revealed” 567 years after such occasion. Please quote the Quran saying so. You believe in Quran above anything else, don’t you??

 

[swariffin]

**Roman soldiers were well advised by the wishes of Pilate. Pilate (and his wife) did not want Jesus to be harmed even. Pilate tried his best but could not avoid handing Jesus over to the enemies.

At the place of the Crucifixion, nobody could say that Jesus was not dead. It would have been harmful to Jesus. There was no excuse not to break the legs. But since every one pleaded that he was an honest good man of God (Even the Roman soldier praised Jesus after jesus was brought down from the Cross) and that he was really dead, no need to break his legs, he was spared from severe damage.

It is defeinite that Jesus was alive and he had only fainted on the cross. Suppose that they broke his legs. Then after resurrection,he would be without proper legs, would he not? Coming back to life (i.e. resurrection) has no meaning, no need at all. There is no need to kill him and then bring him back. What use is that? Why is that so important? What purpose does it serve?

It makes a bad point that Jesus being a God died. God died is not good. Also, according to Deut 18:18, it is not good that Jesus die at all withing a few years of his preachings. That will prove that he was a false prophet and a cursed person too. Double defect.

The words resuurection is being used so often. At the same time, earlier versions were that Jesus got up. That is simple and more understandable that Jesus got up from the lying down position. We Muslimsbelieve that Jesus did not die on the cross and he was not a cursed person.

New discoveries prove that Jesus did not die on the cross. God also did not want that Jesus should die on the cross. Jessu also did not want that type of death and Jesus prayed in the gardenbefore his arrest to avoid the cup. All is there in the bible too. An angel was strengthening him. That means the angel was giving him surety that he will not die and his prayer to his God was accepted.

His words on the cross “O my Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?” also prove that he was given assurance that he would not die on the cross. But seeing all the conditions for death were appearing real and that he was about to die, he called out to his Lord (GOD) and trie dto remind God about his promise of saving him from death.**

Why you did not mentioned that the Roman soldier struck his spear to the side of Jesus?? And tell us how a man stabbed by a spear could survive???

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by **planten: **
Roman soldiers were well advised by the wishes of Pilate. Pilate (and his wife) did not want Jesus to be harmed even. Pilate tried his best but could not avoid handing Jesus over to the enemies.

The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.

And the dream which Pilate’s wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster. But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate’s action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall.

Pilate knew very well that the Jews, in accordance with the commandments of their law, could keep Jesus on the Cross only till the evening, and after that it was unlawful to keep anybody on the Cross. Accordingly, it all happened in this very manner; and Jesus was taken down from the Cross before it was evening.

It is improbable that the thieves who were crucified at the same time as Jesus should have remained alive, but that Jesus should have died within two hours. It was an excuse made up to save Jesus from the process of leg breaking. The fact that both the thieves were taken down alive from the Cross is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person: and taking down the victims alive from the Cross was the usual custom; they died only when their bones were broken, or when they were allowed to remain on the Cross without food or drink for some days.

But Jesus had none of these experiences – he neither remained for any number of days on the Cross, nor were his bones broken; and by making it appear that Jesus had died the Jews were made to forget the whole matter. The thieves, however, were killed immediately – their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones.

And a man named Joseph – an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus – presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate’s suggestion. And Jesus having been taken for dead, his body was made over to him, for he was a big man with whom the Jews could have no quarrel.

Arriving at the scene he carried away Jesus as if he were a corpse. Actually he was in a state of swoon. There was a spacious house near by, built according to the custom of the time like a tomb, with an opening in it, and situated at a place with which the Jews had nothing to do. Jesus was placed in this house at the suggestion of Pilate.

alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

I love Jesus

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

The gospels point out clearly that Pilate had several times resolved to let Jesus go, but the Jews said that if he would let him go he would be disloyal to Caesar; they also said that Jesus was a rebel who wished to be king.

And the dream which Pilate’s wife had, further prompted the freeing of Jesus; otherwise, Pilate and his wife themselves would have been exposed to disaster. But, as the Jews were a mischievous people, ready even secretly to inform the Caesar of Pilate’s action, Pilate made use of a device to rescue Jesus: first, he fixed Friday for the crucifixion, only a few hours before sunset, and the night of the Great Sabbath was about to fall.

Pilate knew very well that the Jews, in accordance with the commandments of their law, could keep Jesus on the Cross only till the evening, and after that it was unlawful to keep anybody on the Cross. Accordingly, it all happened in this very manner; and Jesus was taken down from the Cross before it was evening.

It is improbable that the thieves who were crucified at the same time as Jesus should have remained alive, but that Jesus should have died within two hours. It was an excuse made up to save Jesus from the process of leg breaking. The fact that both the thieves were taken down alive from the Cross is sufficient evidence for an intelligent person: and taking down the victims alive from the Cross was the usual custom; they died only when their bones were broken, or when they were allowed to remain on the Cross without food or drink for some days.

But Jesus had none of these experiences – he neither remained for any number of days on the Cross, nor were his bones broken; and by making it appear that Jesus had died the Jews were made to forget the whole matter. The thieves, however, were killed immediately – their bones were broken. It would have been different if it had been said in regard to one of the thieves also that he was dead and that there was no need to break his bones.

And a man named Joseph – an honoured friend of Pilate and a notable person in the locality and a secret disciple of Jesus – presented himself at the right time. I suspect that he too was called at Pilate’s suggestion. And Jesus having been taken for dead, his body was made over to him, for he was a big man with whom the Jews could have no quarrel.

Arriving at the scene he carried away Jesus as if he were a corpse. Actually he was in a state of swoon. There was a spacious house near by, built according to the custom of the time like a tomb, with an opening in it, and situated at a place with which the Jews had nothing to do. Jesus was placed in this house at the suggestion of Pilate.

alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html

I love Jesus

Thanks

Please answer my simple question, why did Pilate allow his soldier to strike Jesus with a spear?

 

[planten]

Please answer my simple question, why did Pilate allow his soldier to strike Jesus with a spear?

swariffin, Pilate was not there. But his soldiers were there and only the senior soldier (man in-charge) was well advised by Pilate not to harm Jesus. It was a covert operation. That soldier did not know about the real things. So he being one of the soldiers struck spear into Jesus body. Immediately, water and blood gushed out of the body. That proved Jesus was alive and his heart was working.

May be it is gift from God that some one struck a spear and it is a big proof of living Jesus. I do not know at what stage Jesus became a god. Was he god all the time? Or he became god after crucifixion? After resurrection?

 

[ralphinal]

swariffin, Pilate was not there. But his soldiers were there and only the senior soldier (man in-charge) was well advised by Pilate not to harm Jesus. It was a covert operation. That soldier did not know about the real things. So he being one of the soldiers struck spear into Jesus body. Immediately, water and blood gushed out of the body. That proved Jesus was alive and his heart was working.

May be it is gift from God that some one struck a spear and it is a big proof of living Jesus. I do not know at what stage Jesus became a god. Was he god all the time? Or he became god after crucifixion? After resurrection?

How in the world do you get it was a covert operation?

If someone cut a four to six inch wide gash between your ribs and ran the spear up into you for about a foot, how long would you live?

 

[jblake]

planten;:

It is definite that Jesus was alive and he had only fainted on the cross.

Unfortunately for you, there is no evidence to that effect.

Suppose that they broke his legs. Then after resurrection,he would be without proper legs, would he not?

In as much as one can walk, and even run, after breaking both legs, your assumption is incorrect.

New discoveries prove that Jesus did not die on the cross.

Those “so called” discoveries are nothing more conjecture, supported by preconceived claims, based upon what the want to believe, augmented by a weltanschuung that denies that reality is real.

His words on the cross “O my Lord, O my Lord, why have you forsaken me?” also prove that he was given assurance that he would not die on the cross.

In as much as scripture is being quoted, the major datapoint it proves, is that He knew the TaNaKh. Furthermore, it can be argued that He was reciting that passage, as a source of strength and comfort.

jonathon

 

[jblake]

R_not;:

Anyway, I have a dumb question - I thought the Shroud was not authenticated and it was in fact ‘created’ sometime in the Medieval times which is more than 1,000 years after Jesus was crucified? And some say that it was burned and that skewed the carbon dating.

The material used for the carbon dating was taken from a section of Shroud that was known to have been repaired during the Renaissance. Looking at the published research, it is obvious that the closer to the edge the material was taken, the more recent it is created. Looking at the various IR and UV photographs that were taken of the shroud, prior to the carbon dating, it is obvious that the material was taken from an area known to contain anomalies.

The part of the shroud that was burned, can, theoretically, provide the best data for carbon dating.

jonathon

 

[ralphinal]

There was also pollen on the shroud from the correct era and location

 

[jblake]

planten;:

Immediately, water and blood gushed out of the body. That proved Jesus was alive and his heart was working.

When a live body is cut, the “water” isn’t evident. When a dead body is cut, the “water” is evident. When a live body is cut, how the blood comes out, depends upon whether a vein, or an artery has been cut. When a dead body is cut, regardless of whether a vein, or an artery has been cut, it comes out the same way.

Furthermore, when a live body is cut, there is a rhythm to how the blood comes out. When a dead body is cut, there is no rhythm — simply an single gush, that explodes everything at one swoop.

jonathon

 

[Bill_Pick]

boloji.com/opinion/0206.htm
Did Jesus Die in India?
by Kusum Choppra

”According to Kersten and some scientists, it was the “sweating” of the body under the shroud permeated with aloe and myrrh that left the unique and detailed impression on the linen shroud which confounded investigations for centuries.
Using the latest available scientific techniques, Kersten has established the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin and used it to bolster his argument that Jesus lived”

ok and hitler did not kill any jews,so now what

 

[paarsurrey]

There was also pollen on the shroud from the correct era and location

Hi

I understand that the shroud contains spots drentched in blood. The oozing of blood from the body of Jesus marks that he was alive in the tomb, in my opinion.

I love Jesus.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

I understand that the shroud contains spots drentched in blood. The oozing of blood from the body of Jesus marks that he was alive in the tomb, in my opinion.

I love Jesus.

Thanks

If I thought that you would get the Star Trek: The Next Generation reference, I would say “Wrong again, Albert.”

All that proves is that it was in contact with a bleeding body. Until the blood is gone or there is coagulation, even the dead bleed

 

[Robertwilliam]

Christ died for us. Muslims deny this because they deny salvation. He died for our sins. Muslims deny that anyone can bear the sins of another. He died and rose from the dead. Anybody who denies this is bound for the Lake of Fire. I love Jesus my Savior.