“Unconscionable” San Francisco archbishop rejects circumcision ban

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I am a man.I am quite mature.I know and have known hundreds if not thousands of men in my life.Most men my age were circumcised routinely.I have NEVER heard one whine about being circumcised.Not.One.
Are you going to ban certain ethnic groups from piercing their daughters ears?That’ll be next.Are you going to have parades and protests and make parents feel guilty about a decision they made in their sons’ best interest?This practice has been around for 6000 years and some “enlightened” ACTIVISTS in California are going to ensure the rest of us have to live by their rules?Typical pinko leftist reasoning.WE KNOW BEST.Get a life.
The vast majority of women in Egypt are cut, and insist they love being so and it’s great that way…not very convincing. I am not a leftist, and this post is offensive and personally attacking in it’s tone. You have no right to tell someone else what they are entitled to feel about having a normal healthy, functional and non-renewable body part amputated from their genitals. Your posts are uncharitable and mean-spirited.
 
To point out that racist propaganda made by the US Military about the Japanese did not mean all Americans were racists, nor that the US cause in the war was wrong. Likewise, that afore-mentioned offensive cartoon does not mean that all persons supporting genital integrity are anti-semetic, nor does it mean that the cause of genital integrity is wrong. That’s all.🤷
It may be true that not all people who support “genital integrity,” whatever that means, are not anti-semitic, but any law which strikes at an integral part of Jewish identity and self awareness without taking into consideration the feelings and religious sentiment of the Jewish people may be. If those who oppose circumcision of infants wish to educate others about their views, that is one thing, but forcing a ban on the practice against the will of those who see the practice as a religious sign of a convenental relationship with God, is something else. If anti-semitism is not the core reason for the enactment of the law, shouldn’t dialogue and understanding be the way forward in this conflict?
 
It may be true that not all people who support “genital integrity,” whatever that means, are not anti-semitic, but any law which strikes at an integral part of Jewish identity and self awareness without taking into consideration the feelings and religious sentiment of the Jewish people may be. If those who oppose circumcision of infants wish to educate others about their views, that is one thing, but forcing a ban on the practice against the will of those who see the practice as a religious sign of a convenental relationship with God, is something else. If anti-semitism is not the core reason for the enactment of the law, shouldn’t dialogue and understanding be the way forward in this conflict?
Sure, and that’s precisely what I’m doing on here now, attempting to educate, establish a reasonable dialogue, and raise awareness so that the already rapidly declining rate of non-therapeutic, medically unnecessary foreskin amoutation surgery continues to plummet in the U.S. My interests are in protecting the rights of children, one of which is the basic, inherent human right to integrity in their bodies and personhood. I don’t enjoy being bashed on the Internet, and believe me, there are ALOT of other things I’d rather be doing! My wife has made it WELL KNOWN to me she’d prefer I was not bothering with this as well, as it’s time consuming in the extreme. I’m here to educate, to make people think.

And if you don’t like the term “genital integrity” then we’ll go with “bodily integrity” instead. It’s pretty basic…as a matter of normative Western values, I submit that we readily agree that human beings have in inherent right to autonomy and integrity in their physical bodies. No one has the right to invade another’s physical personhood against their express will and consent, absent express exception situations such as, perhaps, execution as a criminal punishment, or self-defense in the context of the other being physically attacked first.

Children, as especially vulnerable human beings, are if anything entitled to MORE protection of their physical well-being and securing of their rights and best interests. Their inherent rights as human beings are no less than those of an adult, and among those basic rights is the same right to respect for their physical autonomy and bodily integrity. Parents are stewards and guardians who are charged to act in the child’s best interests to secure and guard these same rights. They do not have some inherent right by virtue of being parents to violate these rights. I cannot break my daughter’s arm, for instance, as a disciplinary measure. Nor can I opt for an amputation of a healthy finger of hers because I don’t like the way it looks, or have a nose job for her because I think her nose is ugly the way it is…do you see?

The problem with circumcision in the routine, medically unnecessary, “social” or “parental choice” context is that it is a glaring exception to these otherwise generally agreed upon moral and ethical precepts. It does not comport with these otherwise fairly uncontroversial values.
 
First of all, since when being upset over the forcible removal of the most erogenous zone of one’s body whining? Would you call a woman who is upset about the removal of her clitoral hood and speaks out so other girls won’t have to go through the same thing “whining”?

And circumcision is not analogous to ear piercing. It’s more comparable to the surgical removal of the ear lobe.
I can only assume that you are uncircumcised.As a circumcised man I can assure you that the “forcible”(your pejorative adjective) removal of the most “erogenous” zone of one’s body is NOT the case at all.The glans or “head” of the penis is in fact the most erogenous zone of the organ and I can personally assure you that removal of the foreskin is in fact no impediment to sexual pleasure whatsoever.

It is in no way comparable to the misnomer of female 'circumcision’which generally results in removal of the clitoris,NOT the clitoral hood.As practiced in the the East and Africa the purpose of female ‘circumcision’ is the total negation of sexual pleasure in women to “ensure” marital fidelity.Your comparison is specious.
 
The vast majority of women in Egypt are cut, and insist they love being so and it’s great that way…not very convincing. I am not a leftist, and this post is offensive and personally attacking in it’s tone. You have no right to tell someone else what they are entitled to feel about having a normal healthy, functional and non-renewable body part amputated from their genitals. Your posts are uncharitable and mean-spirited.
Why is it that you accuse those who disagree with you as offensive and attacking in tone?I said it was SOP for pinko leftists-if you feel you’ve been slighted I guess that is your problem.I did not call you any such thing.I suggest you take a deep breath and compose yourself before stooping to lecture other posters.

“Your posts are uncharitable and mean-spirited.”.I disagree and you really should stop attacking me instead of my posits.You are starting to get very personal which. in itself is uncharitable and mean-spirited.

I withdraw the “Get a Life” part as you obviously have taken it personally when it was directed at the Usual Suspects who want the government to interfere between parent and child.
 
I can only assume that you are uncircumcised.As a circumcised man I can assure you that the “forcible”(your pejorative adjective) removal of the most “erogenous” zone of one’s body is NOT the case at all.The glans or “head” of the penis is in fact the most erogenous zone of the organ and I can personally assure you that removal of the foreskin is in fact no impediment to sexual pleasure whatsoever.

It is in no way comparable to the misnomer of female 'circumcision’which generally results in removal of the clitoris,NOT the clitoral hood.As practiced in the the East and Africa the purpose of female ‘circumcision’ is the total negation of sexual pleasure in women to “ensure” marital fidelity.Your comparison is specious.
The fact that you are circumcised means that you can’t know what your missing. Here is a crash course:
noharmm.org/advantage.htm

And yes, the removal of the clitoral hood is completely analogous to the removal of the foreskin. Most forms of FC doen’t involve the extreme mutilation you describe, and almost all are touted as cleanlier(women have more folds and smegma than guys after all) and healthier. When you factor in the fact that male circumcision was brought to this country in the name of preventing masturbation it’s glaring. It’s become so engrained in our culture, many Americans are blind to the similarities. Europeans see it, but we can’t seem to get ethnocentricism out of the way.
 
MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread has wondered far afield from the original post. Please return to the topic of the original post. Which is about faith and the practice of religion

from the original post

“The proposed ban on circumcision represents an unconscionable violation of the sanctuaries of faith and family by the government of San Francisco,” wrote Archbishop Niederauer in a letter to the editor published May 25 in the San Francisco Chronicle. “Although the issue does not concern Christians directly, as a religious leader I can only view with alarm the prospect that this misguided initiative would make it illegal for Jews and Muslims who practice their religion to live in San Francisco – for that is what the passage of such a law would mean.”
Hear, hear. I would echo the Archbishop’s opinion with my previous reference to, say, holy water fonts. Let’s ban them because they contain bacteria!

People don’t have to circumcise their sons. The medical advantages are very strong, however, backed with recent large studies. But it’s not mandatory. If the ban passes, it is the first step towards a minority being able to shove its opinion down other people’s throats. Not unusual in California, with its peculiar laws, but dangerous.
 
👍
Hear, hear. I would echo the Archbishop’s opinion with my previous reference to, say, holy water fonts. Let’s ban them because they contain bacteria!

People don’t have to circumcise their sons. The medical advantages are very strong, however, backed with recent large studies. But it’s not mandatory. If the ban passes, it is the first step towards a minority being able to shove its opinion down other people’s throats. Not unusual in California, with its peculiar laws, but dangerous.
 
People don’t have to circumcise their sons. The medical advantages are very strong, however, backed with recent large studies. But it’s not mandatory.
This is incorrect. This is a very common American misconception and contradicts just about every national medical organization in the Western World. There are no significant medical benefits to RIC. If there were European men would have more urogenital problems. They don’t.

In fact, worldwide several medical societies have called the procedure unethical and harmful. Most recently this is what The Royal Dutch Medical Association had to say about it:

reuters.com/article/2010/05/27/us-dutch-circumcision-idUSTRE64Q52H20100527
 
This is incorrect. This is a very common American misconception and contradicts just about every national medical organization in the Western World. There are no significant medical benefits to RIC. If there were European men would have more urogenital problems. They don’t.

In fact, worldwide several medical societies have called the procedure unethical and harmful. Most recently this is what The Royal Dutch Medical Association had to say about it:

reuters.com/article/2010/05/27/us-dutch-circumcision-idUSTRE64Q52H20100527
"Originally Posted by Robert Bay
MODERATOR NOTICE

This thread has wondered far afield from the original post. Please return to the topic of the original post. Which is about faith and the practice of religion

from the original post

“The proposed ban on circumcision represents an unconscionable violation of the sanctuaries of faith and family by the government of San Francisco,” wrote Archbishop Niederauer in a letter to the editor published May 25 in the San Francisco Chronicle. “Although the issue does not concern Christians directly, as a religious leader I can only view with alarm the prospect that this misguided initiative would make it illegal for Jews and Muslims who practice their religion to live in San Francisco – for that is what the passage of such a law would mean."

This is NOT an argument about circumcision per se but about the IMPACT such a ban would have on the practice of RELIGION.
 
Another point, which I forgot to mention in my previous post. Are you seriously drawing an analogy between the ritual of circumcision and the Druid practice of human sacrifice or the Santeria practitioner’s killing of an animal in the public arena? Yes, such customs should probably be outlawed in the US because they constitute, on the one hand, a major human rights violation, and, on the other, animal cruelty.
I don’t see the force of the animal cruelty objection, unless you want to forbid all killing of animals.

Animal sacrifice in the ancient world was basically a barbecue that acknowledged the presence of the gods.

Modern people have a weird prejudice against it.

Edwin
 
"Originally Posted by Robert Bay
MODERATOR NOTICE

This is NOT an argument about circumcision per se but about the IMPACT such a ban would have on the practice of RELIGION.
Thanks for reminding me and not the person I was responding to who was speaking of the “very strong” “medical advantages”.
 
I don’t see the force of the animal cruelty objection, unless you want to forbid all killing of animals.

Animal sacrifice in the ancient world was basically a barbecue that acknowledged the presence of the gods.

Modern people have a weird prejudice against it.

Edwin
Animal sacrifice may have served a divine purpose for Jews and Pagans in ancient times, but I guess the Hindu in me is opposed to killing any creature. Killing animals for food and warmth is another matter since it at least serves a utilitarian human purpose, while hunting for sport is forbidden by Torah law. There is, however, also a case for vegetarianism in Judaism.
 
I’m one such person with the forementioned weird prejudice against it. 😛
I don’t see the force of the animal cruelty objection, unless you want to forbid all killing of animals.

Animal sacrifice in the ancient world was basically a barbecue that acknowledged the presence of the gods.

Modern people have a weird prejudice against it.

Edwin
 
the petition to put this proposal on the ballot collected 12,265 signatures which is less than 3% of the voters. Just because this ballot initiative appears on the ballot doesn’t mean that it has a good chance of passing.
Astute point and logical…but…this is San Francisco! The weirder the initiative, the more likely to pass. People will vote for it if only to feel they are protesting against something! (I lived there.)
 
Wasn’t January 1st, up until 1960, considered to be the Feast of the Circumcision of Jesus? I think the name of the feast was changed to the Holy Name of Jesus (a name still used by Lutheran churches and many churches of the Anglican Communion).

Granted, January 1 has more recently been devoted to the Solemnity of Mary. And Pope John Paul II later reinstituted the feast of the Holy Name, setting the date of January 3.
catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activities/view.cfm?id=521

But why the abandonment of the Circumcision? Is the Catholic Church downplaying the practice, compared to the past?
 
Personally, I am also against such a ban. Jews and Muslims both believe in circumcision so what about the Jews and Muslims? Will they be banned from circumcising their children as well?
 
Wasn’t January 1st, up until 1960, considered to be the Feast of the Circumcision of Jesus?
Yes, it was.
But why the abandonment of the Circumcision? Is the Catholic Church downplaying the practice, compared to the past?
I don’t know if that’s the reason but it really messed up my counting system. 😃 I used to teach Holy Days of Obligation as the 3 - Cs and the 3 - As. (Circumcision, Immaculate Conception, Christmas ---- Assension, Assumption, All Saints) 😃
 
Personally, I am also against such a ban. Jews and Muslims both believe in circumcision so what about the Jews and Muslims? Will they be banned from circumcising their children as well?
The law that is being proposed has no religious exemption so it would apply to those who circumcise for religious reasons too.

This is the reason Archbishop Niederauer has come out so strongly against it.
 
The law that is being proposed has no religious exemption so it would apply to those who circumcise for religious reasons too.
This proposal would definitely contravene religious freedoms and, therefore, should be apposed by those of faith.
 
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