“Unconscionable” San Francisco archbishop rejects circumcision ban

[Blacksword]

I agree that it would have a negative effect on the city, and I do not support the ban. However, those who do support the ban point out that infant circumcision is actually involuntary for the person most affected. Many advocates of the ban lament, as adults, what was done to them when they had no say in the matter…

Thank you for pointing this out. I have said before in other threads, I’m definitely in the category of persons wishing their bodies had been left intact. I can also say I’m not in favor of the proposed banning of the procedure in toto. I favor other, better methods of reducing and eliminating the practice for the average non-muslim and non-jewish American.

But yes, to put it bluntly, I’m the ONLY one who will see the penis in question every day for the rest of my life, the ONLY one on the giving OR receiving end of sexual pleasure with that penis, therefore, what insanity gave my parents, a physician, or anyone else, the notion that THEY had some inherent right to cosmetically modify said penis through partial amputation without MY SAY SO?

 

[Blacksword]

I’m torn. My parents forced me to eat asparagus as a child. It was involuntary. I didn’t want to eat it. They told me it was good for me! The horror . . . the horror! I hope someday, somehow, they pass a law forbidding parents from feeding asparagus to infants and ruining them for life. Something must be done!

Sigh, yeah, that’s similar

Except for the fact that numerous ACTUAL scientifically conclusive nutrition studies and published literature show that asparagus IS, in fact, good for you. And that eating it does NO permanent anatomical, functional, or sexual modifications or alterations to you.

Whereas NO conclusive medical benefits have EVER been shown to genital cutting, and it clearly DOES involve a permanent, irreversible anatomical, functional, and sexual alteration of another’s anatomy. Other than that, totally the SAME thing!

 

[Blacksword]

Yes, yes it does.

Proof that S.F.’s circumcision ban Is anti-Semitic

http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/06/foreskinman2cover.jpg
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/06/monsters.jpg
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/06/whereisthechild.jpg
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/files/2011/06/monstermohelcard.jpg

foreskinman.com/about.htm

“Matthew Hess is president of MGM Billboards, a San Diego, California USA based group working to enact legislation that would protect boys from forced circumcision.”​

A tasteless and shameful cartoon. However, I would point out that numerous pretty racist WWII propaganda videos are available about the Japanese done by the U.S. military. That doesn’t necessarily mean that our cause was immoral then.

 

[Dale_M]

I’m sure the issue is motivated for a number of reasons, with antisemitism being one of them.

Quite obviously, as seen from the “comic.”

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

A tasteless and shameful cartoon. However, I would point out that numerous pretty racist WWII propaganda videos are available about the Japanese done by the U.S. military. That doesn’t necessarily mean that our cause was immoral then.

The cause was moral but the racist depictions were not. Do the ends justify the means?

 

[Blacksword]

The same people who object to circumcision have absolutely no problem with abortion. :hypno:

Patently false and absurd. I and a number of others on this forum absolutely oppose both. I’ve marched in two right to life marches in D.C., written papers on the ethics of abortion arguing it is unjustified in metaethics courses in college pursuing my philosophy degree, and argued the legal and constitutional aspects of in in constitutional law courses in my law school days. What have you done for the pro-life movement, if I might ask?

 

[Blacksword]

I’m just venturing an opinion as to a poster’s position and I can see how they can view the issue as such. A political ideology can slant your view on a matter. I’m sure the issue is motivated for a number of reasons, with antisemitism being one of them.

I resent that. I am no anti-Semite, and until I say something anti-semetic, I’d appreciate withholding name calling.

 

[Blacksword]

The cause was moral but the racist depictions were not. Do the ends justify the means?

No, they don’t, and I didn’t say they did. I said it was a tasteless and shameful cartoon. I definitely don’t favor the cartoon.

 

[1holycatholic]

Patently false and absurd. I and a number of others on this forum absolutely oppose both.

Are you part of the San Francisco city government?

I’ve marched in two right to life marches in D.C., written papers on the ethics of abortion arguing it is unjustified in metaethics courses in college pursuing my philosophy degree, and argued the legal and constitutional aspects of in in constitutional law courses in my law school days. What have you done for the pro-life movement, if I might ask?

Plenty, but I’m not going to make the ridiculous assertion that writing college philosophy papers constitutes a contribution to the pro-life movement.

 

[Blacksword]

Are you part of the San Francisco city government?

Plenty, but I’m not going to make the ridiculous assertion that writing college philosophy papers constitutes a contribution to the pro-life movement.

Well, debating people who are pro-choice might change some minds, college is the place where that happens. The point is your assertion about the abortion stance of circ activists is not accurate.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

The same people who object to circumcision have absolutely no problem with abortion. :hypno:

Considering the vast majority of Roman Catholics don’t circumcise their sons I don’t see the logic behind this statement.

 

[1holycatholic]

Considering the vast majority of Roman Catholics don’t circumcise their sons I don’t see the logic behind this statement.

The people I’m referring to are the San Francisco city government - the group of people that are calling for the government ban on circumcision that prompted the thread.

 

[Blacksword]

The people I’m referring to are the San Francisco city government - the group of people that are calling for the government ban on circumcision that prompted the thread.

Ok, but isn’t this a ballot initiative proposed by a citizen? I don’t see what the San Francisco govt has to do with it… are they advocating for the ballot to pass?

 

[Pax_et_Bonum]

Judaism is 6,000 plus years old and anti-circumcision fanatics and Caesar are going to change their religion for them,their method of entering into COVENANT with God for them-not ruddy likely.This is anti-semitism writ large.Why is the left so consistently anti-semitic-for that matter,why do the majority of Jews remain on the left of the political spectrum,THEY DON`T LIKE YOU,NOR ISRAEL.Wake up and smell the matzah.Catholics,traditionally liberal have left liberalism en mass because of hatred directed toward the Church.

 

[Blacksword]

Judaism is 6,000 plus years old and anti-circumcision fanatics and Caesar are going to change their religion for them,their method of entering into COVENANT with God for them-not ruddy likely.This is anti-semitism writ large.Why is the left so consistently anti-semitic-for that matter,why do the majority of Jews remain on the left of the political spectrum,THEY DON`T LIKE YOU,NOR ISRAEL.Wake up and smell the matzah.Catholics,traditionally liberal have left liberalism en mass because of hatred directed toward the Church.

It is not anti-semitism, at least certainly not for most who oppose genital cutting. Many opponents are Jews themselves, actually. I am not an anti-Semite, and I have yet to encounter an opponent of genital cutting who is.

It also is not a “liberal” cause. I’m not a liberal, at least inasmuch as I believe you are referring to in using that term. People of many varied political persuasions are opponents of genital cutting.

 

[Blacksword]

And as a reference on the “safety” of the procedure, anyone see this in the news?

m.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/tot_shock_hosp_death_Eja8FLrJF8YtHPCR3JMSMP

This sort of thing happens ALOT more than hospitals and doctors want the public to know. When deaths happen, they typically list the cause of death as “heart failure” or something else, and so its not officially listed. Anything to prevent having to admit that a baby’s death happened because a physician conducted a medically unnecessary surgery on them.

 

[antonivs]

No, they don’t, and I didn’t say they did. I said it was a tasteless and shameful cartoon. I definitely don’t favor the cartoon.

Well, if I am not mistaken, that cartoon was created by Matthew Hess, the founder of the MGM ballot movement. It says a lot about his mindset and motivation. It is clearly anti-Semitic in my view.

 

[Blacksword]

Well, if I am not mistaken, that cartoon was created by Matthew Hess, the founder of the MGM ballot movement. It says a lot about his mindset and motivation. It is clearly anti-Semitic in my view.

I don’t know Matthew Hess, and I would presume you don’t either. I don’t know what his mindset is. He may be anti-semetic, he may not be. I think it’s a tasteless cartoon, that’s about all I have to say about it really, not sure what else you would be looking for.

 

[Stylites]

People can go through all sorts of painful operations to improve their appearance (some of which can be life threatening), and yet no-one tries to ban that stuff.

Not sure if pierced tongues are banned yet or already mandatory in San Francisco.

 

[antonivs]

And as a reference on the “safety” of the procedure, anyone see this in the news?

m.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/tot_shock_hosp_death_Eja8FLrJF8YtHPCR3JMSMP

This sort of thing happens ALOT more than hospitals and doctors want the public to know. When deaths happen, they typically list the cause of death as “heart failure” or something else, and so its not officially listed. Anything to prevent having to admit that a baby’s death happened because a physician conducted a medically unnecessary surgery on them.

Do you have anything to back up that statement, Blacksword? Everything I have found shows a very low incidence of complications.

The records of 5,882 live male births were reviewed to ascertain the incidence and nature of complications following neonatal circumcision. Approximately one half of the patients were circumcised with the Gomco and half with the Plastibell. The incidence of complications was 0.2%; most frequent were hemorrhage, infection, and trauma; there were no deaths; and no transfusions were given.

pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/58/6/824.abstract