$1.1bn wasted on solar power

[gilliam]

MORE than $1 billion of taxpayers’ money was wasted on subsidies for household solar roof panels that favoured the rich and did little to reduce Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions, a scathing review has found.–Tom Arup, The Age, 11 November 2010

Despite a $535 million loan guarantee from the federal government, Solyndra, a maker of solar panels in the southeast San Francisco Bay Area city of Fremont, will close one of its manufacturing plants, lay off 40 permanent and 150 contract workers, delay expansion plans of a new plant largely financed with the government-guaranteed loan and scale back production capacity more than 50 percent. Despite the hype and tax money, Solyndra seems unable to compete with Chinese manufacturers, whose prices are lower. This is the latest bad news for the company touted by Mr. Schwarzenegger and President Barack Obama as one of the green industry’s supposed shining lights. – Editorial, The Orange County Register, 11 November 2010

 

[DawnInTexas]

Bobble heads nodding in background.

God Bless you.
+Jesus, I Trust In You!
Love, Dawn

 

[Bob_Aliano]

Wait until you see the bill for the scam of the century Wind Energy and the extremely inefficient Electric Car, both subsidized by guess who and paid for by guess who.

 

[shockerfan]

Wonder why the left isn’t complaining about corporate welfare when this entire industry is so dependent upon subsidies.

 

[SVP]

Wonder why the left isn’t complaining about corporate welfare when this entire industry is so dependent upon subsidies.

Shhhhhhhhhhh! We wouldn’t want the world to know the left’s dirty little secret!

To the Left, corporate welfare is all good when “green” jobs are concerned, but evil when those real manufacturing jobs are on the line.

 

[latin_rite]

I took the plunge a few years ago and brought a solar hot water system. I’m glad i did so. My power bills dropped by 40%. I was turned off the solar panels, to power my general household needs, because of the cost. At the time, it would have took many years, before i saw the benefits, in cost savings. But last year my neighbour, invested in a cheaper less powerful model. For about $5,000. He actually received a cheque from the power company last month. ( it was for about $20). I’m thinking long and hard about getting it after Christmas. As with a household of 7. My power bill is my biggest outlay. Also with . support for the carbon tax in Australia gaining momentum. it might be time to take the plunge. I think solar energy has a lot of potential. If handled correctly.

 

[SVP]

Individual solar energy only make sense when there are large subsidies, or rebates, and the power output to cost can payback in a reasonable time.

At $20 per billing cycle, assuming one month per cycle, it would take 250 months or 20.833 years just to break even on a $5000 system! The direct cost of the solar cells and inverter if not subsidised would likely be almost twice that or close to $10000 which would take more than 40 years at only $20 per month to pay back.

The “carbon tax” is the biggest financial swindle ever created by mankind. Where does all the “carbon tax” money really go? Any accountability? NO!

 

[latin_rite]

Individual solar energy only make sense when there are large subsidies, or rebates, and the power output to cost can payback in a reasonable time.

At $20 per billing cycle, assuming one month per cycle, it would take 250 months or 20.833 years just to break even on a $5000 system! The direct cost of the solar cells and inverter if not subsidised would likely be almost twice that or close to $10000 which would take more than 40 years at only $20 per month to pay back.

The “carbon tax” is the biggest financial swindle ever created by mankind. Where does all the “carbon tax” money really go? Any accountability? NO!

The savings comes, in dramatically lowering your bills. If you’re paying a few thousand a year in power bills. Then you get your money back a lot faster. I think, his power bill had gone from 2 or 3 thousand a year, to about 5 or 6 hundred.
I agree on the carbon tax., it’s the biggest crock of you know what. All it is going to do is give the government more. money. Even though they say, it’s about “encouraging people to save power, thus helping the enviroment. But many people. have all ready cut back as far as they can go. A extra 40% in power cost, is just going to hurt a lot of people, who are already doing their most now. I wouldn;t mind, if they took the money from a carbon tax, and used it to subsidize things such as solar power. But it would have to be heavily regulated, or 'policed”. They would have to legislate pricing and insulation cost. Other wise you will have a repeat of the water tank rebate. Where the government introduced subsidies to help people get water tanks, to save on city/towns water supplies. But over night the price of water tanks went up. Or when they introduce rebates/tax breaks, for people in private health. They gave a $40 a month tax break. Not even a month later. Health companies. all of a sudden needed to raise prices for insurance by $40 dollars a month.

 

[Toplink_pin]

I’ve spent well over a decade in the “green” energy industry (fuel cells, hydrogen), it’s good to finally be out. I was fortunate to have reach into other “green” technologies such as solar and wind, as well as related technologies (DC - DC inverter power electronics) so I do have some inside knowledge. While I beleive many facets of each technology do have merit, the plain truth is that these sectors are run by fruits and nuts!

It is true that many of the “early adopters” of green technologies in the US are the taxpayers. None of these technologies can support themselves without government assistance. Now, there are certain specific applications and customers where it really works out. But these few exceptions have been grossly overstated. In every “green” technology there is a handful of early adopters that have made out well. But just because solar works out for one customer, doesn’t mean that one case gives blanket approval for all applications.

But this is typical of any cause run by leftist groups. Alternative “green” energy technologies are run by leftists, and they always exxagerate claims of efficiency, cost savings, environmental benefits. It’s an amazing scam that was wondefully tied to the Global Warming scam. I could go on for hours about my 12yrs experience in this world, but I am not going to hijack the thread.

Up here in the northeast it (solar) just doesn’t work out, from hard science and engineering reasons; there is just not enough sun time! If you live in the southern states that have many months of steady sunshine then it’s a good fit for example. Oh I bring a solar panel when I go camping with the kids, but even my kids are smart enough to understand that on the overcast days we just can’t charge the batteries to full charge. I actually instrument our panel to show voltage and charge current, and they really see the voltage (and current drop) on gloomy days. The fossil fuel generator saves the day. Yes they really like have an engineer for a dad (sometimes ).

But even if you do live in a sun-plentiful area, it is still a HUGE investment in money to have such a system. It will take a lifetime to see any return on the investment. The leftists know this, which is why they set up incentives (tax breaks) to take the sting out of the investment. Usually the wealthy individual who invests in such technology doesn’t have any problems paying the utility bill in the first place. And even in the best of applications, these “green” energy systems are never 100% duty cycle, that is, they don’t provide all the power, so usually there is a grid tie in the system that takes over when the “green” system can’t keep up.

You never read those details in articles touting “green” energies. Because if the public knew the truth, they would not buy into it. This is more of a function of a left-leaning media, but again I digress…

Again I have hours of true stories of being “inside” the “green” energy world, from an engineers perspective. Maybe one day I’ll write a book.

 

[latin_rite]

The savings comes, in dramatically lowering your bills. If you’re paying a few thousand a year in power bills. Then you get your money back a lot faster. I think, his power bill had gone from 2 or 3 thousand a year, to about 5 or 6 hundred.
I agree on the carbon tax., it’s the biggest crock of you know what. All it is going to do is give the government more. money. Even though they say, it’s about “encouraging people to save power, thus helping the enviroment. But many people. have all ready cut back as far as they can go. A extra 40% in power cost, is just going to hurt a lot of people, who are already doing their most now. I wouldn;t mind, if they took the money from a carbon tax, and used it to subsidize things such as solar power. But it would have to be heavily regulated, or 'policed”. They would have to legislate pricing and insulation cost. Other wise you will have a repeat of the water tank rebate. Where the government introduced subsidies to help people get water tanks, to save on city/towns water supplies. But over night the price of water tanks went up. Or when they introduce rebates/tax breaks, for people in private health. They gave a $40 a month tax break. Not even a month later. Health companies. all of a sudden needed to raise prices for insurance by $40 dollars a month.

Sorry , his bills ranged from 1600 to 2 thousand.

 

[jman507]

This reminds me of the natural gas commercial that talk about it’s energy efficiency, because 100% of it is used for energy. When it comes to electricity from the power plant there is lots of losses that occur before it can actually get to the point of your outlet. I guess when it would come to an electric car it would have a lot of the energy loss too as compared to keeping the energy stored chemically in gas.

 

[shockerfan]

This reminds me of the natural gas commercial that talk about it’s energy efficiency, because 100% of it is used for energy. When it comes to electricity from the power plant there is lots of losses that occur before it can actually get to the point of your outlet. I guess when it would come to an electric car it would have a lot of the energy loss too as compared to keeping the energy stored chemically in gas.

A power plant must produce 3 units of energy to deliver 1 unit of energy at the point of use.

 

[latin_rite]

But even if you do live in a sun-plentiful area, it is still a HUGE investment in money to have such a system. It will take a lifetime to see any return on the investment. .

Well that isn’t always true. I went the cheaper way of having mine converted. Instead of a totally new full insulation. It cost me around $2,000. That was 3 years ago. I have roughly a year to go and i should have my investment back in full. Which I’m happy about. Not to mention the immediate savings, of having a dramatically reduced power bill… I understand, that solar isn’t going to to be the cheap option or even viable in many areas. This year i had to switch to the grid, to power my hot water, more than a few times, this year. But it was a period of drought breaking rain. So i can’t complain. But if you can use it. Then you should. And with advancements in technology, the solar panels are becoming more efficient, and you add on rising cost of “grid power” the savings will increase each year. If you live in a area where there is plentiful sun. It does not take a lifetime to get your money back. If you’re investing in this technology. Shop around. There are some business, who fudge figures, or straight out lie, about the savings you can make. But there are plenty of honest business out there who will give you the facts. Just remember, if what they say sounds too good to be true, it probably is. But if done correctly. You can make good savings on solar power. But like you said. If you live in a area like Alaska or some place that doesn’t get much sun. I wouldn’t bother.

 

[latin_rite]

A power plant must produce 3 units of energy to deliver 1 unit of energy at the point of use.

But unlike a power plant. The electricity, in a electric car, doesn’t have to travel through hundreds of miles of power lines to get to the engine.

 

[shockerfan]

But unlike a power plant. The electricity, in a electric car, doesn’t have to travel through hundreds of miles of power lines to get to the engine.

But the electricity used to charge the battery did.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I’ve spent well over a decade in the “green” energy industry (fuel cells, hydrogen), it’s good to finally be out. I was fortunate to have reach into other “green” technologies such as solar and wind, as well as related technologies (DC - DC inverter power electronics) so I do have some inside knowledge. While I beleive many facets of each technology do have merit, the plain truth is that these sectors are run by fruits and nuts!

It is true that many of the “early adopters” of green technologies in the US are the taxpayers. None of these technologies can support themselves without government assistance. Now, there are certain specific applications and customers where it really works out. But these few exceptions have been grossly overstated. In every “green” technology there is a handful of early adopters that have made out well. But just because solar works out for one customer, doesn’t mean that one case gives blanket approval for all applications.

But this is typical of any cause run by leftist groups. Alternative “green” energy technologies are run by leftists, and they always exxagerate claims of efficiency, cost savings, environmental benefits. It’s an amazing scam that was wondefully tied to the Global Warming scam. I could go on for hours about my 12yrs experience in this world, but I am not going to hijack the thread.

Up here in the northeast it (solar) just doesn’t work out, from hard science and engineering reasons; there is just not enough sun time! If you live in the southern states that have many months of steady sunshine then it’s a good fit for example. Oh I bring a solar panel when I go camping with the kids, but even my kids are smart enough to understand that on the overcast days we just can’t charge the batteries to full charge. I actually instrument our panel to show voltage and charge current, and they really see the voltage (and current drop) on gloomy days. The fossil fuel generator saves the day. Yes they really like have an engineer for a dad (sometimes ).

But even if you do live in a sun-plentiful area, it is still a HUGE investment in money to have such a system. It will take a lifetime to see any return on the investment. The leftists know this, which is why they set up incentives (tax breaks) to take the sting out of the investment. Usually the wealthy individual who invests in such technology doesn’t have any problems paying the utility bill in the first place. And even in the best of applications, these “green” energy systems are never 100% duty cycle, that is, they don’t provide all the power, so usually there is a grid tie in the system that takes over when the “green” system can’t keep up.

You never read those details in articles touting “green” energies. Because if the public knew the truth, they would not buy into it. This is more of a function of a left-leaning media, but again I digress…

Again I have hours of true stories of being “inside” the “green” energy world, from an engineers perspective. Maybe one day I’ll write a book.

Why don’t you do that, Toplink_Pin? I, for one, would love to read that Book!!!

 

[latin_rite]

But the electricity used to charge the battery did.

Not if you use solar energy, to charge the batteries.

 

[Toplink_pin]

Latin rite: I’m truly glad you found the solar installation successful for your particular application. Yes an electric hot water heater draws a lot of current. It’s a pretty consistent resistive load and would kill your batteries pretty quick. I assume you don’t have a central air conditioner? A typical 220vac compressor draws well over 10amps and is a harsh start/stop inductive load. During one of our hot summer days it would kill a battery-set within an hour. I don’t know your system but from an engineering perspective I’d love to know your typical load profiles.

I had a great conversation many years ago with someone from the south, and they had asked me about solar power to run air conditioning. It’s blistering hot in the south, and there is plenty of sunny days, perfect mix 'eh? It sounds like a great match but the reality is that it would take an enormous plot of land to have enough panels for enough active area to produce the current necessary to charge the batteries. With that kind of large current draw you’re not charging batteries, rather you need to provide enough current to drive the inverter, thus making AC power. The battery bank needed to be enormous too, in order to handle the in-rush currents of the inverter whenever the compressor starts. And then there is nightime; it’s still hot down there after the sun goes down. The system is 100% leaning on the batteries, and will die quickly. Again a garage full of batteries could float a central air conditioner (thru the DC-AC inverter) for a few hours.

Who wants an entire garage full of batteries and a yard covered in panels? Again I’m illustrating an application to drive a large load…perhaps even an entire house. Such an example is not affordable by the average person. Most solar “systems” pick up load from intermittent loads, and can shed usage from the grid at times. They do save customers some money on their utility bill.

But a typical family of 5 (kids) washing clothes, cooking dinners, using hot water bathing, etc could never afford a system capable of meeting their needs. Such systems do exist (I’ve worked on them, great engineering project!) but usually very wealthy people have them for remote camps.

My point is not to bash solar, rather to inform that it’s not as easy and cheap as most people think. Again I’d love to see the load profiles of the applications, thats where engineers can decide what is really needed (equipment and cost).

I really should write a book of my experience(s) in the green energy field. It’s not that green technologies are bad, but they are being approached incorrectly. And yes they are being driven from a leftist philosophy. It’s more about indoctrination than pure science anymore. The Global Warming scam was the worst thing to ever happen to the industry. You can’t scare people into buying a solar panel (or fuel cell, or windmill, etc, etc). It has de-legitimized some good work unfortunately. Plus it has been divisive; why invest in something that is speculative at best?

 

[incense]

My point is not to bash solar, rather to inform that it’s not as easy and cheap as most people think. Again I’d love to see the load profiles of the applications, thats where engineers can decide what is really needed (equipment and cost).

We took a group of kids to see a local house that was supposedly built green (The giant). Several things had me raising my eyebrows, but when I saw the electric power was supposedly provided by two car batteries being charged by a cracked solar panel placed among the trees, I became totally sceptical of the whole house. He got all kinds of business donations to keep the house going, plus the fees for touring it. There wouldn’t be much money in admitting the problems.

 

[Toplink_pin]

I want to add that every conference I’ve ever attended, every symposium, every workshop, included some lecture or dissertation on the importance of population control, overpopulation, etc. So many people in the green energy technologies support these types of views. It’s amazing that a pro-life conservative engineer like myself was able to last over a decade. Ultimately I didn’t. I had to leave. Aside from the technical and cost challenges, this is the most troubling aspect of the green energy movement.

It’s not that green energy technologies are bad, it’s that they are being driven by the wrong motives. They will never replace current energy schemes in a 1:1 match. Engineers and scientists can solve these issues, just as they have and brought technolgies to our current lifestyle. But the green/alternative energy folks need to start being honest.