1 or 2 judgements?

[Mickey]

You get stuck at this same point everytime.

I am not stuck, you silly rabbit! You have no Scriptural proof of purgatory–even Thomas Aquinas admits this. You are stuck.

steve_b:
**For the last time, where is this?**I can tell you where it is not.

It is not purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

There is no EO Church.

Now I know you are being silly. The Holy Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

If toll booths aren’t a belief, or teaching…

I have already told you…you must not be listening…it is a theologoumenon…much like the RCC teaching on Limbo.

 

[Mickey]

Where?

"The Holy Sacrifice of Christ, our saving Victim, brings great benefits to souls even after death, provided their sins (are such as) can be pardoned in the life to come. For this reason the souls of the dead sometimes beg to have Liturgies offered for them. The safer course, naturally, is to do for ourselves what we hope others will do for us after death.** It is better to make one’s exit a free man than to seek liberty after one is in chains.** We should, therefore, despise the world with all our hearts as though its glory were already spent, and offer our sacrifice of tears to God each day as we immolate His sacred Flesh and Blood. This Sacrifice alone has the power of saving the soul from eternal death, for it presents to us mystically the death of the Only-begotten Son

 

[steve_b]

I am not stuck, you silly rabbit! You have no Scriptural proof of purgatory–even Thomas Aquinas admits this. You are stuck.

shaw:you silly mouse.

St. Thomas Aquinas held that “the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life”.

stop foolin around and answer the question
m:

I can tell you where it is not.

It is not purgatory.

:dts:good grief!!!

For the last last last last time, sheesh!!!

the following isn’t heaven or hell

:
:
Examples of the Efficacy of Prayers for the Dead

St. John of Damascus relates: “A certain holy man had a disciple who was living heedlessly. And what happened? Death found him in the midst of his carelessness. The merciful Heavenly Father, roused by the tears and cries of the elder, revealed to him the youth burning in flames*** up to his neck***, like the merciless rich man mentioned in the parable of Lazarus. And when the saint subjected his flesh to strict mortification, fervently beseeching God for the forgiveness of his disciple, he beheld him enveloped in flame up to his waist. Finally, when the holy man had increased his ascetic labors yet more, God revealed him in a vision to the elder, removed from the flame and completely free.”

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

where is this?

 

[Mickey]

St. Thomas Aquinas held that “the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life”.

**Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, **nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question.
Thomas Aquinas

the following isn’t heaven or hell

How do you know this?

 

[Heliotropium]

In a prior discussion on baptism we got off on a tangent about the particular judgement and the general judgement. This is a new topic to link to so we do not derail the prior dialog.

Our Orthodox brethren do not hold to the Catholic teachings that a soul is judged immediately at death. Apparently they believe that it is held in a state waiting for the end of time before it is judged.

Catholic teaching is explicit. We teach that each soul is judged for heaven or hell immediately at death. But that the final extent of reward for souls in heaven or the final severity of punishment for souls in hell is not given until the 2nd judgement when the extend of all sins and good deeds have played out on all other souls in human history. The souls of both elect and wicked are reunited with bofy and this alone adds to the glory or the dimension/severity of punishment.

Ref Catechism:

Particular Judgment
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

**V. THE LAST JUDGMENT **1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

Comments?

BF

The Particular Judgment can be seen in Luke regarding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Both parties die and right after their death Lazarus goes to Abraham’s bosom and the rich man goes to hell. Another time in scripture that I reflect on is the thief on the cross who is told by Christ that “this day you will be with me in paradise”. Both times it’s clear the individuals go to their rewards or punishments directly after the death of their bodies.

 

[Mickey]

The Particular Judgment can be seen in Luke regarding the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Both parties die and right after their death Lazarus goes to Abraham’s bosom and the rich man goes to hell.

So then…we know that the rich man cannot cross over to Lazarus. But is there a chance for him to be released from hell at the last judgement. Do you think he can be helped by the prayers of the living?

 

[steve_b]

Now I know you are being silly. The Holy Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

in case you missed it, the EO are in the non Catholic forum.
m:

I have already told you…you must not be listening…it is a theologoumenon

That’s only your opinion. Until someone can speak for EO, your opinion is just that, your opinion.

besides you contradict the OCA.

Q & A with the OCA.org doesn’t say ANYTHING about theologoumenon.

yya.oca.org/youth/yomail/back-issues/2001-10-specialdeparted.htm

toll houses/booths is a teaching i.e. doctrine that is followed by EO. Maybe not you but it’s part of EO. BTW, which group of EO are you?

 

[steve_b]

**Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, **nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question.
Thomas Aquinas

why not see what he said in context
newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm
m:

How do you know this?

So in IOW by questioning this, you believe a soul can be sprung from hell by prayers?

 

[Mickey]

in case you missed it, the EO are in the non Catholic forum.

Not the case on the Orthodox forum. We are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

That’s only your opinion.

It is **not **doctrine and you know it. And it will not suddenly become doctrine because you say it is–LOL! You are a very silly man. :tiphat:

 

[Mickey]

why not see what he said in context

Aquinas accepted purgatory, but he agreed that it cannot be proven from Scripture.

So in IOW by questioning this, you believe a soul can be sprung from hell by prayers?

Actually, we leave everything to the mercy of God. We do not claim to know God’s judgement—and we do not speculate about odd doctrines such as purgatory.

Do you believe that God can release a soul from hell?

 

[bona_fides_1]

in case you missed it, the EO are in the non Catholic forum.

Touche!


BF

 

[steve_b]

It is **not **doctrine and you know it. And it will not suddenly become doctrine because you say it is–LOL! You are a very silly man. :tiphat:

1. 
   *]The orthodox information center
   *]OCA
   
   says otherwise. They teach it, and I quoted from them.
   
   now let’s get back to the topic
   
   For the last last last last time, sheesh!!!
   
   the following isn’t heaven or hell
   

   :
   
   Examples of the Efficacy of Prayers for the Dead
   
   St. John of Damascus relates: “A certain holy man had a disciple who was living heedlessly. And what happened? Death found him in the midst of his carelessness. The merciful Heavenly Father, roused by the tears and cries of the elder, revealed to him the youth burning in flames*** up to his neck***, like the merciless rich man mentioned in the parable of Lazarus. And when the saint subjected his flesh to strict mortification, fervently beseeching God for the forgiveness of his disciple, he beheld him enveloped in flame up to his waist. Finally, when the holy man had increased his ascetic labors yet more, God revealed him in a vision to the elder, removed from the flame and completely free.”
   
   http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/prayer_dead.aspx

   where is this?

 

[Heliotropium]

So then…we know that the rich man cannot cross over to Lazarus. But is there a chance for him to be released from hell at the last judgement. Do you think he can be helped by the prayers of the living?

In the General Judgment all those souls that are in hell now will be joined with thier bodie and counted among the unfaithful. No I do not belive of the prayers of the living help those in hell. The prayers for the living are for those souls in purgatory.

 

[bona_fides_1]

Do you believe that God can release a soul from hell?

Nope. God is Omniscient and sees all outcomes, all prayers and considers the extent of Mercy in one single judgement. He can’t err and He can’t change His mind. That would make Him less than God.

From New Advent we have two concepts that address this question:
Hell (New Advent):

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

Hell is Eternal
The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched” (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, “De Angelis”, III, viii). We merely call to mind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. “Martyrium Polycarpi”, c. ii (cf. Atzberger, “Geschichte”, II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, “Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten”, Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, “Theologische Zeitfragen”, 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. **Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy. **

God has the power to free a soul from Hell but won’t:
In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. Thus some argued from a false interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 sq., that Christ freed several damned souls on the occasion of His descent into hell. Others were misled by untrustworthy stories into the belief that the prayers of Gregory the Great rescued the Emperor Trajan from hell. But now theologians are unanimous in teaching that such exceptions never take place and never have taken place, a teaching which should be accepted. If this be true, how can the Church pray in the Offertory of the Mass for the dead: “Libera animas omnium fidelium defunctorum de poenis inferni et de profundo lacu” etc.? Many think the Church uses these words to designate purgatory. They can be explained more readily, however, if we take into consideration the peculiar spirit of the Church’s liturgy; sometimes she refers her prayers not to the time at which they are said, but to the time for which they are said. Thus the offertory in question is referred to the moment when the soul is about to leave the body, although it is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell. But whichever explanation be preferred, this much remains certain, that in saying that offertory the Church intends to implore only those graces which the soul is still capable of receiving, namely, the grace of a happy death or the release from purgatory.

BF

 

[steve_b]

Aquinas accepted purgatory, but he agreed that it cannot be proven from Scripture.

He says we know there is purgatory. And as you can see, Aquinas uses scipture copiously as well as other sources to arrive at his conclusions.
You’ve seen the following argument used by Catholics in this forum. It comes from the Summa in thet link I provided

:
." Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins.

newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm

It begs the question, why pray for the dead?
m:

Actually, we leave everything to the mercy of God. We do not claim to know God’s judgement—and we do not speculate about odd doctrines such as purgatory.

Did you read what Bona Fides wrote to you about all those toll houses? How can you say the EO don’t claim to know God’s judgement, Or speculate on doctrine?
m:

Do you believe that God can release a soul from hell?

The Catholic position is crystal clear. What we’re trying to find out is what YOU believe

 

[Michael_Francis]

Due to the decline in charity in this discussion…
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