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johnsummers
Guest
I believe you will find a great answer to your question regarding the Sabbath in the Pope’s book: “Behold the Pierced One”
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Vidi_Aquam
Guest
More details on the book please?
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johnsummers
Guest
Sure: Ignatius Press/ Author: Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger/ Title: Behold the Pierced One-- An approach to a Spiritual Christology
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Vidi_Aquam
Guest
Thanks.
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cet
Guest
This is right, God didn’t command this, and that’s the reason you shouldn’t do it.
The second commandment is straightforward, and not difficult to follow. And it is great that you see this, follow the bible and your conciensce, and you’ll be safe. Allways pray God to shed light over the bible as you read, and you’ll be on your way home.
It is encouraging to see that you’ve seen this so clearly. Maybe you should consider finding a place to be able to worhip on the day God institudet for worship and leave catholisism?
kind regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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jemfinch
Guest
God didn’t command us to build Church buildings, either, but even SDAs seem to feel it’s alright.
God does shed light on the Bible: through the pillar and foundation of the truth, the Church.
What Peter and the apostles bound on earth (such as Christian worship on Sunday) has already been bound in heaven. I don’t recall Jesus giving that same promise to Ellen White.
Jeremy
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VociMike
Guest
Good point!
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cet
Guest
Yes, and there is a reason why also… Jesus went to the synagouge every sabbath, and never told anyone that it was wrong to build houses of worship.
The pillar and foundation of the truth is the church? Where did you find that in the bible…? Jesus is truth, that’s what i read in the bible, and there is something called the Spirit of truth also… But i can’t recall having read that the church is the foundation and pillar of the truth… you’ll have to show me…
Jesus tells us explicitly:
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Then I ask you, have the earth and heaven passed away yet? Peter and the apostles were mere men, used by God to reach the surrounding people with the gospel of salvation, they were not made judges instead of God, Either did they change the Sabbath to sunday, Constantine did that…
Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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cet
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I’m not a fanatic. I see that people put drawn images in books to illustrate what happened in addition to the text, but i most certainly do NOT bow down in front of them to pray for their intersession… Neither do i bow down to statues, nor have them in my home. There is miles of difference between what the catholic church does, and what normal people put up on the walls of pictures of nature, to decorate… The main thing with the second commandment, is not to make images to worship… I really hope you see the difference here…
Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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LilyM
Guest
Jesus also went to the Temple in Jerusalem - which not only had graven cherubim and a multitude of other images in it but had graven cherubim ON THE ARK OF THE COVENANT ITSELF! You think people never bowed and prayed in front of the Ark? You’d better believe they did! Were they worshipping those cherubim? Of course not, they were worshipping the God who made them.
Also read the bit of the Gospels where Jesus said he would be lifted up like the bronze serpent Moses made in the desert, in order to draw people to him and heal them. That is exactly what we do when we put a crucifix in a church.
1 Timothy 3:15 refers to ‘the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth’. Looks like someone needs to read their Bible a bit more closely
So I presume you follow every single one of the 613 odd dietary and other laws listed in Leviticus then? Which ones DO you follow and why? Which ones don’t you follow and why not? If Christ didn’t change a jot or tittle of the law then why did HE regularly break Jewish laws concerning such things as ritual washing, contact with women (especially the woman with a bloody discharge), contact with people of other faiths (Romans and Samaritans), working on the Sabbath, the list is endless really …
As for Constantine starting worship on Sunday - read a little book called the Didache, written in the second century AD (at least 200 years prior to Constantine) - they were worshipping on Sunday all right). Please get such obviously falsifiable facts straight.
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cet
Guest
Well, there is nothing that excludes images at christmas… Actually there is nothing that tells us to celebrate cristmass at all… So i don’t celebrate it… It was rome who took up that old babylonian tradition with celebrating the 25. of december as the birthday of Christ. The interesting thing is that this day is actually the birthday of Tammuz. The child traditionally thought to be son of Nimrod.
The church that i go to has currently put one image up on the wall, it is a picture of Jesus at the last meal… I really wish they would take it down… It shouldn’t be there.
Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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cet
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Yes, this is correct, but there is a slight difference here… They were commanded to make these things by God… And they are an exact replica of what is in heaven. People did bow down in front of the ark of the covenant. But you have to remember that firstly, the ark was the throne of God, the presence of God, the shekina was dwelling there. Secondly, the ten commandments are in the ark, and thirdly, it was only the high priest who was allowed into the most holy, and in addition to that, only once a year… I still claim that there is a major difference to what the catholic church does…
This is still not worshipping an image. Moses was told to make that serpent, so that everyone that looked on it would be healed, God did NOT tell the israelites to worhip this snake!
Well, you got me there, i forgot this verse.1 Timothy 3:15 refers to ‘the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth’. Looks like someone needs to read their Bible a bit more closely
nice to know anyway… But, this is still not a green light for the church to change and do what they want in regard to doctrines. Witch the catholic church have done several times allready.No, i do not follow all the 613 laws, i follow the dietary laws, yes, but the laws regarding the sacrificing where fulfilled at the cross, so they don’t count for anything but history anymore. And the other laws were most likely ment for israel as a nation, where God was king… Now we have a variety of nations with different sets of laws, so i follow my country’s laws, as long as they don’t require me to break Gods ten commandments…
He didn’t start it, he made sunday to be a christian day of worship instead of the sabbath… Sunday was a day of worship for the sunworshippers waaaay before that…
Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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VociMike
Guest
There is no difference. You are choosing to believe that some of the words of the second commandment have more weight than others. You are choosing to believe that the “main thing” with the second commandment is not about making likenesses, but about worshipping them. In reality, you are choosing to ignore certain words of the second commandment. Where do you get the authority to ignore part of the second commandment, to claim part of the second commandment really doesn’t apply?! How did you get the right to ignore certain words of the second commandment?!
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jemfinch
Guest
Well heck, if that’s the standard, we’re set! Jesus didn’t tell anyone not to abuse their pets, either. He didn’t tell anyone not to “punish” their wives with beatings and force them to wear burkas, either. There are a number of actions you and I would both call sins that Jesus never addressed directly.
But Jesus did address such things indirectly. He gave Peter and the apostles the power “to bind and to loose,” a Jewish term for establishing binding laws. He gave Peter “the keys of the kingdom,” making him a steward of the same sort we read about in Isaiah 22. He told the apostles in the upper room that they had the power to “forgive sins” and “retain sins.”
According to Saint Paul, yes.
Somewhere you haven’t been looking, apparently
1 Timothy 3:15.And Jesus told the Apostles that the Spirit of Truth would lead them into all the truth and remind them of the things He had taught while on the earth. But given the arguments and debates and disagreement that we see all throughout Christianity, we can see clearly that the Spirit of Truth was not given to guard individual Christians from error.
Perhaps you’ve bought into your denominational tradition a little too much, if you don’t even look at the Bible verses they don’t explicitly show you
Don’t take that too harshly. When I was a Protestant, I was in exactly your situation, and would have said exactly what you just said. I was knocked on my back when I found out that the Church, not the Bible, is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Astounded. I’d never once, in all my upbringing, been shown that verse. The churches I’d always gone to had never once claimed to be the pillar and foundation of the truth, so I went seeking for a Church that really did claim that verse, and I found the Catholic Church.
No, and neither has the Church’s observance of the Sabbath.
Indeed. But by what logic do you declare that they were infallible while writing for God but not infallible while speaking for God, or ruling the Church (as they did in Acts 15) for God?
No, they were made judges with God. “Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” "Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ "
You’ve been reading too many conspiracy theories. Not only is the shift to Sunday worship shown in the Bible (when the disciples gathered on the first day of the week to break bread…), but historical documents centuries before Constantine support it as well. If the gates of hell really can’t prevail over the Church, show us, throughout history, the “True Church” still worshipping on Saturdays.
Jeremy
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jemfinch
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What major difference is there? Catholics don’t worship statues or icons. We use them as tools to remember what they represent. Just like anyone might go to the cemetary and stand in front of a tombstone to call to mind their loved ones.
Do you have an issue with Catholics asking saints in heaven for intercession? Do you have an issue with Catholics asking Mary, the mother of God, to pray for them? If so, then let’s talk about those issues, because those are real issues. Catholics really do that. But if you have an issue with Catholics “worshipping” Mary or the saints or statues thereof, then you need to correct your misunderstanding of what Catholics do. We can’t and won’t justify worshipping, or adoring Mary or the saints of their statues because that would be wrong, and because Catholics don’t do that. We worship only God. Charity demands that you take us at our word when we say that we worship only God. Stop accusing us of doing what we explicitly tell you that we are not doing.
And Catholics do not, ever, worship images. Not under any circumstances whatsoever. It would be mortal sin for us to do so, and this is taught by the Church! Why don’t you believe us? Is it because what we do with our bodies looks so much like worship to you? That’s merely a cultural difference! Do you think that Japanese businesspeople are worshipping each other when they bow to each other in honor? No, you don’t, because you understand that in their culture, that’s not a sign of worship. Likewise, you shouldn’t think that Catholics kneeling before a statue is a sign of worship, because in Catholic culture, it’s not a sign of worship, it’s a sign of honor. When Catholics worship, you know it, because we offer a sacrifice in our worship, and that sacrifice goes only to God.
The Church doesn’t change its doctrines.Well, you got me there, i forgot this verse.
Name them. Please.
Go, Peter, kill and eat.
By what authority do you declare that certain Old Testament laws, certain jots and certain tittles have passed from the Law, but certain other ones haven’t? Did Christ give you the power to bind and to loose?
And there are many, many parallels between Dionysus and Jesus – both were the result of a virgin birth, for instance. If mere presence in prior pagan tradition invalidates practices and doctrines of Christianity, we’re left with practically nothing: nearly every important aspect of Christian practice, doctrine, and theology had some sort of precursor in pagan mythology.
Your belief in the “sunworshipper” explanation for Sunday worship only serves as evidence of your uncritical acceptance of whatever “proof” can be provided to support your choice of religion.
Jeremy
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cet
Guest
I’m not ignoring some parts, no. I use my brain to find out what God wants when i read the bible. If you were God, would you even think twice if i, as your creation, took a picture of my son and put it up on the wall? I love my son, and having a picture of him on the wall doesn’t make it idolatry.
It is an entirely differant case when one start to kneel in front of statues and pictures of dead people and pray for their intersession. In regards to the practice the catholic church has with mary and the saints. They are dead, and as the bible states it:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
There is no help in asking dead people to intercede for you, they are dead, asleep, nowhere to be found… And they will arise at the second coming of Jesus Christ. This practice, praying for dead peoples help, is spiritism. And that is not God’s method of doing things.
Kind Regards
Carl Erik Tengesdal
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Scottgun
Guest
To the tired charge that in the bible God did not command us to make saint statues I say in the bible God did not command anyone to write Gospels either.
Scott
I guess Moses on Elijah at the transfiguration were just holograms like Jor-El in Superman’s fortress of solitude.
Scott
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