100,000 back bill to curb ACLU

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2shelbys:
Mike,
You have to be the king of irrelevent arguments. This country was founded on the basic principles of right and wrong which are reflected in the Ten Commandments.
🙂 Every legal system is based on ‘basic principles of right and wrong.’ What relevance at all do the Ten Commandments have to the United States Code? A whole two of the commandments are reflected in the law, and there is a whole mass of laws with no reflection in the Ten Commandments.

Mike
 
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2shelbys:
Not true. There are specific rules and guidlines for filibusters and filibustering judicial nominations is not allowed and has never been done before. If you think that not being allowed to do something ever stopped a politician (especially a Democrat one) from doing something you are very naive.
Wow. You see I thought the Senate had people who kept order and pulled people up if they did something that broke the rules of debate. I guess the Senate has no rules whatsoever. That must be a really effective debating chamber… :confused:

Or alternatively there are actually rules for debate that are enforced, which I think the more likely option. Hence the filibuster is allowed, even if it has never been done before and may be against the spirit of the rules.
A wonderful idea that we should adopt. Although I can do without the shouting down and mindless mumbling.
The schoolboy shouting is childish and foolish - though it is very much a showpiece usually only at Prime Minister’s Questions (which is the only bit 99.9% of people see). At other times it is much more restrained and professional.

Mike
 
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2shelbys:
The point is that it is not just Christians that recognize the story of Moses
But by no means all religions do. Only Jews, Christians and Muslims.
and that all religions worship a God.
…or Gods, plural. And atheists do exist.

Mike
 
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pnewton:
You may be right about the snit, but do not think that the courts and the ACLU were not involved. Everytime an organization makes decisions about limitations on the balance between free exercise versus establishment they so so based on prevailing case law. In our generation of judicial activism, court decisions extend beyond their immediate parties and into common practice.

Yes, I think we have tipped the balance way to far in the direction of protecting the sensibilities of a small minority at the expense of the rights of the much larger majority.

To take this discussion back to the original topic, it is not about the ACLU exclusively, but about whether they should receive awards in the form of legal fees for cases they are not a direct party to. I think the legislation in question does help close an avenue of abuse that they have been using to dig into tax payers pockets.

If some of you fine folks want to donate to them and co-operate with their goals, that would be your business and your co-operation in evil is somewhat remote But I do no want my tax dollars going to these parasitic attorneys.
If you don’t want your tax dollars going to these “parasitic attorneys,” then the ideal thing would be to make it so those “parasites” couldn’t win any more cases. One way to do that is (and I’m realizing I’m reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.

I know. It’s a reach, isn’t it?

I’m not sure what you mean by the “sensibilities of a small minority.” Is it your position that those in this country who are not Christian should just lump it? Are they required to put up with some dim bulb who believes that a high school football game isn’t complete without a 20-minute invocation to the Holy Spirit at halftime? There are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and all sorts of other people who are actual citizens of the US, you know, and they have rights too.

There are also numerous Christians (even Catholics) who believe that it is not only unnecessary but obnoxious to have people jamming religion down our throats using public money. I’m one. I’m not the only one.

I’m having a particularly difficult time with your assertion that “the courts and the ACLU were not involved” in this case with the high school football coach. I mean, it’s an interesting idea. Sure, nobody could see them, but somewhere in the background there’s some secret…something. I don’t even know what.

Every other lawyer who wins a case like this gets attorney fees. This includes lawyers who represent Christians. Sieve your bathwater carefully, is what I’m saying. When a school district illegally discriminates against a Christian (yes, it happens; I don’t live on Mars), how is that Christian going to find a lawyer?

Certainly the Christian could pay out-of-pocket for a lawyer, but lawyers are expensive. That’s why this provision is in your law – so that poor people can still get legal aid to enforce their rights in court. Lawyers don’t work for free, you know.

If this plan goes through (and it won’t), it will effectively keep anyone who doesn’t have a pile of money from using the courts to protect their religious rights. Does that make any sense to you at all?
 
don’t know about this proposal, but personally I would sign a petition for a law requiring all members of the ACLU, particularly its attorneys, to read and understand the Contstitution and the bill of rights before attempting to interpret it for us. They seem to do the same thing with the Constitution that a lot of fringe religious sects do with the Bible - rewrite it and then interpret the re-write to suit their own agenda.
 
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MikeWM:
Penny has explained quite well how this is nothing approximating to an infringment of the coach’s rights. Nothing is stopping him praying for the team, or going to get a job at a Catholic school. So it looks like I’m still waiting how an individuals right to practice religion has been abrogated by the actions of the ACLU.

Mike
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43950
 
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MikeWM:
Favouring one religion over another is what concerns them. I am sure they would be just as concerned about a copy of shariah law on the wall of the courtroom, as they would about the Ten Commandments. It is just that the majority of the US is Christian and so Christian cases are in the vast majority.
But the cases lead us to believe otherwise. The ACLU is concerned with Christianity. You may remember last summer (2004) when Judhe Phyllis Hamilton ruled that schools in CA can have a muslim studies class where they choose Muslim names, dress up as Arabs, recite lines from a Muslim prayer such as “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and make banners saying, “In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.” I googled and found nothing to indicate the ACLU had a problem with this.

UNC Chapel Hill required all new and transfer students to read “Approaching the Quran.” It is no longer required reading, but if students do not want to because of religious reasons, they have to write a 1 page paper explaining why. What do you think the ACLU would day if all students were to read a book about the Bible?

In White Plains, NY, Catholic parents sued because students were being taught that “our mother is the earth and our father is the sun.” A Sikh minister came into school to teach the kids to meditate, do yoga, and understand other Hindu practices. Again, the ACLU didn’t help these parents. A PA school even had a re-creation of aztec human sacrifices.

Why are these things OK but my kid can’t pray over lunch and I can’t get together with co-workers to have a bible study.

I am sure others can think of more examples, and if I google, I can probably come up with more as well.

“…Students generally do not have a Federal right to be excused from lessons that may be inconsistent with their religious beliefs or practices. Pay attention. There went religious freedom.”
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MikeWM:
So how exactly has your religious freedom been denied? Can you not worship at home? Can you not go to Church? What precise religious rights have been taken away from you?
First, the argument is irrelevant. Should we not fight for those things that have not yet touched us? Should I not care about the sex abuse scandals because I wasn’t molested by a priest? Should I not care about injustices all around the world, even if I, myself, have not experienced them? Isn’t this something were supposed to fight for?

Second, my family IS in danger of having freedoms taken away. If my child were to pray over her snack at school, she could get suspended. A school is Alabama instituted a “prayer monitor” to make sure people were not praying in groups at events such as sporting events. Even though the school didn’t endorse or encourage such prayer it still was not allowed. Thank God the courts overturned this (with no ACLU help). Private prayer is a basic right granted to us in the first amendment. It’s what the establishment clause is all about. The ACLU and groups like it care more about freedom FROM religion than freedom of religion.

There are more examples…people not allowed to have a cross on the wall in their offices, kids and adults not allowed to wear religious symbols to school and work. A library employee was fired in Kentucky for refusing to remove a cross necklace. A Texan policeman was not allowed to wear a cross pin, even though secular, not police-related pins are allowed. In 2003 Alabama Gov. Riley started bible study sessions in his conference room. They were voluntary, no state business was to be discussed, and only 11 of the 55 people who worked for him attended. But the Alabama director for American Atheists said they couldn’t truly be voluntary, calling it Christian terrorism.
 
Originally Posted by MikeWM
Favouring one religion over another is what concerns them.
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abcdefg:
just a hypothesis. you need supporting evidence.
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MikeWM:
I have been eagerly awaiting someone to come forward with one way in which their freedom to practice their religion has been curbed by the ACLU via the courts. Looks like I might be waiting a while.
And we are still waiting for your evidence that the ACLU does not favor other religions over Christianity
 
**? What country are you a citizen of? I would assume not the USA as you said “TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.” Or do you just deny that you are part of this country till your party is in power?

**
Penny Plain:
If you don’t want your tax dollars going to these “parasitic attorneys,” then the ideal thing would be to make it so those “parasites” couldn’t win any more cases. One way to do that is (and I’m realizing I’m reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.

I know. It’s a reach, isn’t it?

I’m not sure what you mean by the “sensibilities of a small minority.” Is it your position that those in this country who are not Christian should just lump it? Are they required to put up with some dim bulb who believes that a high school football game isn’t complete without a 20-minute invocation to the Holy Spirit at halftime? There are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and all sorts of other people who are actual citizens of the US, you know, and they have rights too.

There are also numerous Christians (even Catholics) who believe that it is not only unnecessary but obnoxious to have people jamming religion down our throats using public money. I’m one. I’m not the only one.

I’m having a particularly difficult time with your assertion that “the courts and the ACLU were not involved” in this case with the high school football coach. I mean, it’s an interesting idea. Sure, nobody could see them, but somewhere in the background there’s some secret…something. I don’t even know what.

Every other lawyer who wins a case like this gets attorney fees. This includes lawyers who represent Christians. Sieve your bathwater carefully, is what I’m saying. When a school district illegally discriminates against a Christian (yes, it happens; I don’t live on Mars), how is that Christian going to find a lawyer?

Certainly the Christian could pay out-of-pocket for a lawyer, but lawyers are expensive. That’s why this provision is in your law – so that poor people can still get legal aid to enforce their rights in court. Lawyers don’t work for free, you know.

If this plan goes through (and it won’t), it will effectively keep anyone who doesn’t have a pile of money from using the courts to protect their religious rights. Does that make any sense to you at all?
 
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puzzleannie:
don’t know about this proposal, but personally I would sign a petition for a law requiring all members of the ACLU, particularly its attorneys, to read and understand the Contstitution and the bill of rights before attempting to interpret it for us. They seem to do the same thing with the Constitution that a lot of fringe religious sects do with the Bible - rewrite it and then interpret the re-write to suit their own agenda.
ACLU’s a private organization.

You really want the government telling members of a private organization what they can and cannot believe? Like, say, the Boy Scouts?
 
KathleenElsie said:
? What country are you a citizen of? I would assume not the USA as you said “TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.” Or do you just deny that you are part of this country till your party is in power?

I live in the USA. I work in the USA. I pay US taxes. My husband and children are US citizens. I am not. I was born elsewhere.

What country am I a citizen of? Not telling.
 
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MikeWM:
Penny has explained quite well how this is…
I notice their is a tendancy to ask for examples like you did a few posts back only to try a kings-X afterwards and say they do not really apply. I gave a valid reason why I see rights to freely exercise religion as being curtailed (and this coach felt the same way). He felt, as do I, that he could not do something that he should be able to do. That is a curbing or limiting of his practice of religion.
 
Penny Plain:
One way to do that is (and I’m realizing I’m reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.
I am all for that, but I want to start with the federal courts. I am sick and tired of judges for life nuancing our Constitution into oblivion. Law-makers must try to enforce the wishes of the people. That is what democracy is all about. Do you notice that there is a trend in this country to stop this madness that has led to a tyranny of the minority?

Laws are not struck down because they are unconstitutional in any sense that a normal, reasoning person would agree is contrary to the constitution. The will of the people is thwarted by expansion of case law that wsa itself an expansion of case law that was again an expansion of some case related to the constitution.
I’m not sure what you mean by the “sensibilities of a small minority.” Is it your position that those in this country who are not Christian should just lump it? Are they required to put up with some dim bulb who believes that a high school football game isn’t complete without a 20-minute invocation to the Holy Spirit at halftime?
As a Christian who attended public school I have had to put up with far more “lumping it” than a half-time prayer. (Where did you get 20-minute invocation from, anyway?) We did all the typical new age meditationsfrom the 70’s. I think every school has on teacher that has to try this on her class.

If I lived in an Arab country (or community) that had the traditional Islamic prayer times, it wouldn’t phase me one bit. I sure wouldn’t go home crying to mommy and as a parent I would expect my kids to show a little more tolerance and grow up.
 
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pnewton:
Law-makers must try to enforce the wishes of the people. That is what democracy is all about.
I think I see where your problem is.

Democracy is not simply “majority rule.” At least, it’s not in America. Your Bill of Rights is the perfect example of that.

Complaining about us shooting down your example is really kind of sad, by the way. Mike asked for an example of the ACLU and the courts curtailing somebody’s “rights.” You gave an example that involved neither the ACLU nor the courts. When we called you on it, you said, “They were there, but nobody could see them.”

Sure they were. I’d be a little more tolerant if you hadn’t come out with this gem a little earlier in the debate.
I won’t address all of your “what ifs” because I did not see a single one that was a direct correlation and each on would have a unique answer.
 
Maybe next the ACLU can take on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, cause it is a day that promotes a man who was a Baptist minister. Don’t want to favor one minister of one type of religion over any other.
 
Penny Plain:
Democracy is not simply “majority rule.” At least, it’s not in America. Your Bill of Rights is the perfect example of that…
You are absolutely right and I am well aware of that, since it is, as you put it, MY Bill of Rights. That does not change the fact that we also have democracy in the USA, specifically each legislator is elected to pass laws reflecting the majority of opinion of his constituents.
 
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pnewton:
That does not change the fact that we also have democracy in the USA, specifically each legislator is elected to pass laws reflecting the majority of opinion of his constituents.
Actually, I don’t think that’s true. Each legislator is elected to act in the nation’s best interests, not to cater to the whims of his constituents.

An example: Suppose the majority of a legislator’s constituents felt very strongly that black people should not be allowed to vote in elections or marry white people. (I know, it could never happen in the US, but indulge me.) Is it then that legislator’s obligation to work to pass such laws?
 
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pnewton:
I notice their is a tendancy to ask for examples like you did a few posts back only to try a kings-X afterwards and say they do not really apply.
It’s a bit rich to criticise me when I ask for a specific example and you give me an example that has nothing to do what I asked and I tell you so. Don’t moan about me commenting just because you couldn’t come up with a good example.
I gave a valid reason why I see rights to freely exercise religion as being curtailed (and this coach felt the same way). He felt, as do I, that he could not do something that he should be able to do. That is a curbing or limiting of his practice of religion.
Just because you feel you ought to be able to do it, doesn’t mean you can. A Satanist might well think he should be allowed to murder babies in order to freely exercise his religion, but of course he cannot. The law seems very clear to me - the coach was imposing his religion on the team in what ought (legally) to have been a secular setting.

Mike
 
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MooCowSteph:
But the cases lead us to believe otherwise. The ACLU is concerned with Christianity. You may remember last summer (2004) when Judhe Phyllis Hamilton ruled that schools in CA can have a muslim studies class where they choose Muslim names, dress up as Arabs, recite lines from a Muslim prayer such as “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,” and make banners saying, “In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.” I googled and found nothing to indicate the ACLU had a problem with this.
Would they have a problem with a Christian studies class, where they find out about Christianity, look at a few verses from the bible, etc.? I doubt it if it were one class in a set of classes dealing with different religions each class.
UNC Chapel Hill required all new and transfer students to read “Approaching the Quran.” It is no longer required reading, but if students do not want to because of religious reasons, they have to write a 1 page paper explaining why. What do you think the ACLU would day if all students were to read a book about the Bible?
I probably don’t agree with that - but then I have no idea what UNC Chapel Hill is anyway. What courses do they offer? Do physics students have to do this, for example?
In White Plains, NY, Catholic parents sued because students were being taught that “our mother is the earth and our father is the sun.” A Sikh minister came into school to teach the kids to meditate, do yoga, and understand other Hindu practices. Again, the ACLU didn’t help these parents. A PA school even had a re-creation of aztec human sacrifices.
Goodness, children learning things at school about other cultures and other peoples and history! Call in the lawyers!
Why are these things OK but my kid can’t pray over lunch and I can’t get together with co-workers to have a bible study.
Who stops your kid praying by herself over lunch? Who stops you and your friends having a bible study? Co-workers is a different matter though, this leads to discrimination accusations in the workplace. Religion is for the home and for the individual, it shouldn’t have a organised role in the workplace.
“…Students generally do not have a Federal right to be excused from lessons that may be inconsistent with their religious beliefs or practices. Pay attention. There went religious freedom.”
It seems to me that it is called learning. Isn’t that what children are at school for? Have you so little confidence in your faith that you think exposure to others will lead you to abandon it???
First, the argument is irrelevant. Should we not fight for those things that have not yet touched us? Should I not care about the sex abuse scandals because I wasn’t molested by a priest? Should I not care about injustices all around the world, even if I, myself, have not experienced them? Isn’t this something were supposed to fight for?
Yes, you should care. You should care if people are being prevented from practicing their religion, and if religion is being imposed on people who don’t want it. It strikes me that the USA has struck the ideal balance between the two.
Second, my family IS in danger of having freedoms taken away. If my child were to pray over her snack at school, she could get suspended. A school is Alabama instituted a “prayer monitor” to make sure people were not praying in groups at events such as sporting events.
But one second you are talking about individual prayer and the next you are talking about groups. I see the argument in groups. I seriously doubt your child could be suspended for individual prayer quietly to herself over her snack (in the first place how would anyone know?)
Even though the school didn’t endorse or encourage such prayer it still was not allowed. Thank God the courts overturned this (with no ACLU help). Private prayer is a basic right granted to us in the first amendment. It’s what the establishment clause is all about. The ACLU and groups like it care more about freedom FROM religion than freedom of religion.
Again you are mixing up private prayer and group prayer. You can’t say these are the same thing.
There are more examples…people not allowed to have a cross on the wall in their offices, kids and adults not allowed to wear religious symbols to school and work.
Fine. The office isn’t the place to parade your religion. The same applies to your other examples.

Mike
 
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