M
MikeWM
Guest
Mike,
You have to be the king of irrelevent arguments. This country was founded on the basic principles of right and wrong which are reflected in the Ten Commandments.
Mike
Mike,
You have to be the king of irrelevent arguments. This country was founded on the basic principles of right and wrong which are reflected in the Ten Commandments.
Wow. You see I thought the Senate had people who kept order and pulled people up if they did something that broke the rules of debate. I guess the Senate has no rules whatsoever. That must be a really effective debating chamberâŚNot true. There are specific rules and guidlines for filibusters and filibustering judicial nominations is not allowed and has never been done before. If you think that not being allowed to do something ever stopped a politician (especially a Democrat one) from doing something you are very naive.
Or alternatively there are actually rules for debate that are enforced, which I think the more likely option. Hence the filibuster is allowed, even if it has never been done before and may be against the spirit of the rules.
The schoolboy shouting is childish and foolish - though it is very much a showpiece usually only at Prime Ministerâs Questions (which is the only bit 99.9% of people see). At other times it is much more restrained and professional.A wonderful idea that we should adopt. Although I can do without the shouting down and mindless mumbling.
Mike
But by no means all religions do. Only Jews, Christians and Muslims.The point is that it is not just Christians that recognize the story of Moses
âŚor Gods, plural. And atheists do exist.and that all religions worship a God.
If you donât want your tax dollars going to these âparasitic attorneys,â then the ideal thing would be to make it so those âparasitesâ couldnât win any more cases. One way to do that is (and Iâm realizing Iâm reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.You may be right about the snit, but do not think that the courts and the ACLU were not involved. Everytime an organization makes decisions about limitations on the balance between free exercise versus establishment they so so based on prevailing case law. In our generation of judicial activism, court decisions extend beyond their immediate parties and into common practice.
Yes, I think we have tipped the balance way to far in the direction of protecting the sensibilities of a small minority at the expense of the rights of the much larger majority.
To take this discussion back to the original topic, it is not about the ACLU exclusively, but about whether they should receive awards in the form of legal fees for cases they are not a direct party to. I think the legislation in question does help close an avenue of abuse that they have been using to dig into tax payers pockets.
If some of you fine folks want to donate to them and co-operate with their goals, that would be your business and your co-operation in evil is somewhat remote But I do no want my tax dollars going to these parasitic attorneys.
worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43950Penny has explained quite well how this is nothing approximating to an infringment of the coachâs rights. Nothing is stopping him praying for the team, or going to get a job at a Catholic school. So it looks like Iâm still waiting how an individuals right to practice religion has been abrogated by the actions of the ACLU.
Mike
But the cases lead us to believe otherwise. The ACLU is concerned with Christianity. You may remember last summer (2004) when Judhe Phyllis Hamilton ruled that schools in CA can have a muslim studies class where they choose Muslim names, dress up as Arabs, recite lines from a Muslim prayer such as âIn the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,â and make banners saying, âIn the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.â I googled and found nothing to indicate the ACLU had a problem with this.Favouring one religion over another is what concerns them. I am sure they would be just as concerned about a copy of shariah law on the wall of the courtroom, as they would about the Ten Commandments. It is just that the majority of the US is Christian and so Christian cases are in the vast majority.
First, the argument is irrelevant. Should we not fight for those things that have not yet touched us? Should I not care about the sex abuse scandals because I wasnât molested by a priest? Should I not care about injustices all around the world, even if I, myself, have not experienced them? Isnât this something were supposed to fight for?So how exactly has your religious freedom been denied? Can you not worship at home? Can you not go to Church? What precise religious rights have been taken away from you?
just a hypothesis. you need supporting evidence.
And we are still waiting for your evidence that the ACLU does not favor other religions over ChristianityI have been eagerly awaiting someone to come forward with one way in which their freedom to practice their religion has been curbed by the ACLU via the courts. Looks like I might be waiting a while.
If you donât want your tax dollars going to these âparasitic attorneys,â then the ideal thing would be to make it so those âparasitesâ couldnât win any more cases. One way to do that is (and Iâm realizing Iâm reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.
I know. Itâs a reach, isnât it?
Iâm not sure what you mean by the âsensibilities of a small minority.â Is it your position that those in this country who are not Christian should just lump it? Are they required to put up with some dim bulb who believes that a high school football game isnât complete without a 20-minute invocation to the Holy Spirit at halftime? There are Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, and all sorts of other people who are actual citizens of the US, you know, and they have rights too.
There are also numerous Christians (even Catholics) who believe that it is not only unnecessary but obnoxious to have people jamming religion down our throats using public money. Iâm one. Iâm not the only one.
Iâm having a particularly difficult time with your assertion that âthe courts and the ACLU were not involvedâ in this case with the high school football coach. I mean, itâs an interesting idea. Sure, nobody could see them, but somewhere in the background thereâs some secretâŚsomething. I donât even know what.
Every other lawyer who wins a case like this gets attorney fees. This includes lawyers who represent Christians. Sieve your bathwater carefully, is what Iâm saying. When a school district illegally discriminates against a Christian (yes, it happens; I donât live on Mars), how is that Christian going to find a lawyer?
Certainly the Christian could pay out-of-pocket for a lawyer, but lawyers are expensive. Thatâs why this provision is in your law â so that poor people can still get legal aid to enforce their rights in court. Lawyers donât work for free, you know.
If this plan goes through (and it wonât), it will effectively keep anyone who doesnât have a pile of money from using the courts to protect their religious rights. Does that make any sense to you at all?
ACLUâs a private organization.donât know about this proposal, but personally I would sign a petition for a law requiring all members of the ACLU, particularly its attorneys, to read and understand the Contstitution and the bill of rights before attempting to interpret it for us. They seem to do the same thing with the Constitution that a lot of fringe religious sects do with the Bible - rewrite it and then interpret the re-write to suit their own agenda.
KathleenElsie said:? What country are you a citizen of? I would assume not the USA as you said âTELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.â Or do you just deny that you are part of this country till your party is in power?
I notice their is a tendancy to ask for examples like you did a few posts back only to try a kings-X afterwards and say they do not really apply. I gave a valid reason why I see rights to freely exercise religion as being curtailed (and this coach felt the same way). He felt, as do I, that he could not do something that he should be able to do. That is a curbing or limiting of his practice of religion.Penny has explained quite well how this isâŚ
I am all for that, but I want to start with the federal courts. I am sick and tired of judges for life nuancing our Constitution into oblivion. Law-makers must try to enforce the wishes of the people. That is what democracy is all about. Do you notice that there is a trend in this country to stop this madness that has led to a tyranny of the minority?One way to do that is (and Iâm realizing Iâm reaching here) is to TELL YOUR GOVERNMENT TO STOP BREAKING THE LAW.
As a Christian who attended public school I have had to put up with far more âlumping itâ than a half-time prayer. (Where did you get 20-minute invocation from, anyway?) We did all the typical new age meditationsfrom the 70âs. I think every school has on teacher that has to try this on her class.Iâm not sure what you mean by the âsensibilities of a small minority.â Is it your position that those in this country who are not Christian should just lump it? Are they required to put up with some dim bulb who believes that a high school football game isnât complete without a 20-minute invocation to the Holy Spirit at halftime?
I think I see where your problem is.Law-makers must try to enforce the wishes of the people. That is what democracy is all about.
I wonât address all of your âwhat ifsâ because I did not see a single one that was a direct correlation and each on would have a unique answer.
You are absolutely right and I am well aware of that, since it is, as you put it, MY Bill of Rights. That does not change the fact that we also have democracy in the USA, specifically each legislator is elected to pass laws reflecting the majority of opinion of his constituents.Democracy is not simply âmajority rule.â At least, itâs not in America. Your Bill of Rights is the perfect example of thatâŚ
Actually, I donât think thatâs true. Each legislator is elected to act in the nationâs best interests, not to cater to the whims of his constituents.That does not change the fact that we also have democracy in the USA, specifically each legislator is elected to pass laws reflecting the majority of opinion of his constituents.
Itâs a bit rich to criticise me when I ask for a specific example and you give me an example that has nothing to do what I asked and I tell you so. Donât moan about me commenting just because you couldnât come up with a good example.I notice their is a tendancy to ask for examples like you did a few posts back only to try a kings-X afterwards and say they do not really apply.
Just because you feel you ought to be able to do it, doesnât mean you can. A Satanist might well think he should be allowed to murder babies in order to freely exercise his religion, but of course he cannot. The law seems very clear to me - the coach was imposing his religion on the team in what ought (legally) to have been a secular setting.I gave a valid reason why I see rights to freely exercise religion as being curtailed (and this coach felt the same way). He felt, as do I, that he could not do something that he should be able to do. That is a curbing or limiting of his practice of religion.
abcdefg said:
Would they have a problem with a Christian studies class, where they find out about Christianity, look at a few verses from the bible, etc.? I doubt it if it were one class in a set of classes dealing with different religions each class.But the cases lead us to believe otherwise. The ACLU is concerned with Christianity. You may remember last summer (2004) when Judhe Phyllis Hamilton ruled that schools in CA can have a muslim studies class where they choose Muslim names, dress up as Arabs, recite lines from a Muslim prayer such as âIn the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful,â and make banners saying, âIn the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate.â I googled and found nothing to indicate the ACLU had a problem with this.
I probably donât agree with that - but then I have no idea what UNC Chapel Hill is anyway. What courses do they offer? Do physics students have to do this, for example?UNC Chapel Hill required all new and transfer students to read âApproaching the Quran.â It is no longer required reading, but if students do not want to because of religious reasons, they have to write a 1 page paper explaining why. What do you think the ACLU would day if all students were to read a book about the Bible?
Goodness, children learning things at school about other cultures and other peoples and history! Call in the lawyers!In White Plains, NY, Catholic parents sued because students were being taught that âour mother is the earth and our father is the sun.â A Sikh minister came into school to teach the kids to meditate, do yoga, and understand other Hindu practices. Again, the ACLU didnât help these parents. A PA school even had a re-creation of aztec human sacrifices.
Who stops your kid praying by herself over lunch? Who stops you and your friends having a bible study? Co-workers is a different matter though, this leads to discrimination accusations in the workplace. Religion is for the home and for the individual, it shouldnât have a organised role in the workplace.Why are these things OK but my kid canât pray over lunch and I canât get together with co-workers to have a bible study.
It seems to me that it is called learning. Isnât that what children are at school for? Have you so little confidence in your faith that you think exposure to others will lead you to abandon it???ââŚStudents generally do not have a Federal right to be excused from lessons that may be inconsistent with their religious beliefs or practices. Pay attention. There went religious freedom.â
Yes, you should care. You should care if people are being prevented from practicing their religion, and if religion is being imposed on people who donât want it. It strikes me that the USA has struck the ideal balance between the two.First, the argument is irrelevant. Should we not fight for those things that have not yet touched us? Should I not care about the sex abuse scandals because I wasnât molested by a priest? Should I not care about injustices all around the world, even if I, myself, have not experienced them? Isnât this something were supposed to fight for?
But one second you are talking about individual prayer and the next you are talking about groups. I see the argument in groups. I seriously doubt your child could be suspended for individual prayer quietly to herself over her snack (in the first place how would anyone know?)Second, my family IS in danger of having freedoms taken away. If my child were to pray over her snack at school, she could get suspended. A school is Alabama instituted a âprayer monitorâ to make sure people were not praying in groups at events such as sporting events.
Again you are mixing up private prayer and group prayer. You canât say these are the same thing.Even though the school didnât endorse or encourage such prayer it still was not allowed. Thank God the courts overturned this (with no ACLU help). Private prayer is a basic right granted to us in the first amendment. Itâs what the establishment clause is all about. The ACLU and groups like it care more about freedom FROM religion than freedom of religion.
Fine. The office isnât the place to parade your religion. The same applies to your other examples.There are more examplesâŚpeople not allowed to have a cross on the wall in their offices, kids and adults not allowed to wear religious symbols to school and work.