144,000: Revelations

[Lev23]

Your opinion. Not anything the Catholic Church teaches, for what it’s worth.

My opinion, your opinion, matters not on the 144,000. There is nothing scandulous or cryptic about God choosen 144,000 Israelis in the future to do whatever He plans for Him. The Church should rejoice in God’s eternal faithfulness to restore Israel in the final days leading up to the return of Jesus Christ.

It is His Word, Through His only Son.

 

[juliamajor]

Apparently you are unaware or discount the importance of numerology in the Bible and Ancient World
The Symbolism of Numbers in the Bible
compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.

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In many ancient cultures, including Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity, numbers were not used as precisely as we might presuppose today. Thus, numbers in the Old Testament and New Testament books are often meant symbolically, not literally. For example:

When the Israelites wanted to say “a long time,” they would say “40 days” or “40 years.” Not concerned with meticulous precision as much as we are today, saying “forty” did not mean that they counted carefully, and the result was exactly between 39 and 41, no more and no less.
Similarly, to say “a short time,” the Scriptures often say “on the third day” or “in three days,” but without meaning exactly 72 hours!
Consider the symbolism of other numbers used in biblical texts:

1 singularity; God in monotheism (Deut 6:4); unity for humans (John 10:16; Eph 4:4)
2 duality: contrary (light/dark, good/evil) or complimentary (material/spiritual; human/divine)
3 God’s actions: 3 “visitors” (Gen 18:2); “third day” (Exod 19:11); later “Trinity” (Matt 28:19)
3½ half of seven; thus things in process, still incomplete
4 earth, directions, winds, empires; later the four Gospels or four Evangelists
6 human work/effort (Luke 13:14); incompleteness, imperfection, lack (not yet 7)
7 days in a week, sabbath rest (Gen 2:1-3); thus natural & divine completeness/perfection
8 Jewish day of Circumcision (Exod 22:30); Christian day of Resurrection (John 20:26)
10 completion; basis of many number systems (# digits on fingers/toes!)
11 incompletion; only eleven apostles remain after Judas’ death
12 months per year, tribes of Israel, apostles of Jesus; human completion
[13] [used in later superstition; based on Judas, but not used in Bible itself]
24 Christian number for completion/restoration: OT tribes + NT apostles
30 days in month in ancient lunar calendars
40 very long time: years of Israel’s Exodus, days of Jesus’ temptation
42 number of months in 3½ years (half of seven years; see also 1260 days)
100 = 10x10
144 = 12x12, thus perfect completion
360 number of days in a lunar year
365 number of days in a solar year (cf. Gen 5:23)
666 number of the beast (Rev 13:18 only; variant reading is 616)
1000 = 10x10x10
1260 number of days in 3½ years (thus incompletion)
10,000 “myriad”; highest ancient number with its own name

Larger numbers in the Bible are often multiples of these basic numbers, thus combining their significance:

7000 = 7 x 1000; 12,000 = 12 x 1000; 20,000 = 2 x 10,000; 144,000 = 12 x 12,000
“200 million” in Rev 9:16 is an English equivalent for 20,000 x 10,000; but there is no word in Hebrew or Greek for “million” or “billion”

This is not just something i made up but attested to by scholars of all stripes Jewish and Christian.Many numbers are highly symbolic-If they weren’t why would you have repetition of certain number, over and over again…Mathematical odds are against that these numbers would randomly keep popping up

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[Lev23]

Apparently you are unaware or discount the importance of numerology in the Bible and Ancient World
The Symbolism of Numbers in the Bible
compiled by Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.​

Because you hold to the fact that 144,000 means a bigger number, you still can’t numerolgyize your way around they are all from the tribes of Israel.

 

[Lev23]

Firstly the 144,000 are all from the tribes of Israel. That means, apparently, that on this reading non-Jews (Gentiles) won’t get into heaven.

Secondly, they are all virgins, Rev 14:3-5. Does that mean married people won’t get into heaven either?

Thirdly, they are described (also Rev 14:3-5) as the ‘firstfruits’ of the redeemed. Firstfruits doesn’t mean the same as ‘sum total of the redeemed’, quite the opposite.

You read this passage in Revelation with no contextual thought.

Of course Gentiles and married people get into Heaven. But these 144,000 Israelis are chosen, set aside for what the God of Israel has planned for them.

For indeed, these 144,000 are the firstfruits of the redeemed in the tribulation, which should of answered your questions on Gentiles and married people getting saved and into Heaven.

 

[Ignatius]

In the book of Revelations it is mentioned that 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel will be saved. Does this mean that at the time of the end of the world, there will only be 144,4440 righteous people left?

It’s not 144000 saved, it’s 144,000 male virgins.

 

[Lev23]

I am not sure how Cathlolics view this verse, but Paul was writing to a Gentile congregation who he called the Israel of God.

Dan

If St.Paul called any Gentile(by birth) only Church “the Israel of God”, it was with the understanding that they were grafted into the promises of Israel and they are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

 

[Dan_Parker]

If St.Paul called any Gentile(by birth) only Church “the Israel of God”, it was with the understanding that they were grafted into the promises of Israel and they are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

Dan:
They were not grafted, they replaced natural Israel.

NAB Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; by the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes’? 43 Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.

Dan

 

[Lev23]

Dan:
They were not grafted, they replaced natural Israel.

Dan

Wrong. Big time wrong.

Natural Israel is the remnant of Israel preserved in the Church, by grace, not works.

Matthew 21:42 is referring to national Israel. Yes, at this time gentiles are allowed to come in to and partake in the promises of Messiah made to Israel and become one new man with the Jew. But there is a time scripture says all Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes from Zion when he turns godlessness away from Jacob by taking away their sins.

That deliverer is Jesus Christ. The only Son of the God of Israel.

Jews are always being saved, are always welcome into the Church, and the Gospel is to go to the Jew first, then the Gentile.
Reread Romans 11 to correct this interpretation of yours.

Romans 11:1-6
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

 

[juliamajor]

because you hold to the fact that 144,000 means a bigger number, you still can’t numerolgyize your way around they are all from the tribes of israel.

oy vey!

 

[Lev23]

oy vey!

BTW, I noticed that when you posted about numerolgy in scripture in post #23 on this thread, it was actually your 1500th post here!

 

[juliamajor]

BTW, I noticed that when you posted about numerolgy in scripture in post #23 on this thread, it was actually your 1500th post here!

Wow,I should really get a life!

 

[Dan_Parker]

Wrong. Big time wrong.

Natural Israel is the remnant of Israel preserved in the Church, by grace, not works.

Matthew 21:42 is referring to national Israel. Yes, at this time gentiles are allowed to come in to and partake in the promises of Messiah made to Israel and become one new man with the Jew. But there is a time scripture says all Israel will be saved when the deliverer comes from Zion when he turns godlessness away from Jacob by taking away their sins.

That deliverer is Jesus Christ. The only Son of the God of Israel.

Jews are always being saved, are always welcome into the Church, and the Gospel is to go to the Jew first, then the Gentile.
Reread Romans 11 to correct this interpretation of yours.

Romans 11:1-6
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

One should harmonize all the verses. You ignored the one I used. Here it is again:

NAB Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the scriptures: ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; by the Lord has this been done, and it is wonderful in our eyes’? 43 Therefore, I say to you, **the kingdom of God will be taken away from you **and given to a people that will produce its fruit.

Do you deny that God took the kingdom away from the natural nation of Israel? And do you deny that Paul when speaking to Gentiles called them the Israel of God? – NRS Galatians 6:16 As for those who will follow this rule – peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

I highlighted the following from your passage “at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.” Those Jews were chosen for the same reasons as Gentiles and not because of their nationality. Romans 11:1-6 in no way proves the Jews retained the kingdom (contra Jesus as Mt 21:42) and that the Gentiles were grafted onto them.

Dan

 

[Lev23]

One should harmonize all the verses. You ignored the one I used. Here it is again:

You should take your own advice. Nowhere in the bible does it teach what you are teaching about Israel. And I did not ignore the one you used, I answered it.

Do you deny that God took the kingdom away from the natural nation of Israel?

No. But God never gave the Kingdom to any particular gentile nation or nations. Individual Gentiles from all the nations are invited to be in the Church and produce fruit for God. It was some time after the Church started that the Church learned that God is allowing Gentiles to come in, and miraculously, in Jesus Christ, both the Jew and Gentile are made one new man. Praise be to the Lord God of Israel through His one and only Son, Jesus Christ!

Also remember, that generation was judged ultimately for not recognizing the time God visited them by the Messiah. But in the future, according to God’s prophecy, that Israel will be regathered in the land, and the land and people of Israel will be restored, by Jesus Christ.

After the resurrection of Jesus and before His ascension to the Father’s right hand, Jesus’ Apostles asked him a question.

**Acts 1:6-7
In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.**

So Jesus spent 40 days telling them about the Kingdom of God. Remember Luke wrote Acts as well as the Gospel of Luke. So what was Jesus teaching out of when he taught the Kingdom to His Apostles?
**Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-47
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. **

The Kindgom described in those OT writings named, tell of national Israel’s restoration and being ruled by the Messiah. So when the Apostles aske Jesus the question in Acts 1:6, he never rebuked them about the future event of the Kingdom being restored to national Israel. Jesus replied that it is not for them to know the times the Father has set by His own authority.

And do you deny that Paul when speaking to Gentiles called them the Israel of God? – NRS Galatians 6:16 As for those who will follow this rule – peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Yes. St.Paul was making a distinction for clarification’s sake. He makes this comment-
**Galations 6:15-16
Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. **
Most of this epistle, St.Paul was trying to ease the mind of gentile(by birth) believers that they did not have to do the external Jewish customs, or “works” to add to the grace already given to them by God. When St.Paul makes this statement, He was saying even the Jews in the Church(the remnant of Israel) will have peace and safety when they take comfort and believe that God is no respector of men.

(((I want to point out that even though the Jews that come into the Church are the remnant of Israel(which sanctifies Israel’s existence until God restores them nationally) the Jews inside the Church are no better than the Gentiles that come in. Both Jew and Gentile are made one new man in Jesus Christ.)))

(continued…)

 

[Lev23]

(continued…)

I highlighted the following from your passage “at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.” Those Jews were chosen for the same reasons as Gentiles and not because of their nationality. Romans 11:1-6 in no way proves the Jews retained the kingdom (contra Jesus as Mt 21:42) and that the Gentiles were grafted onto them.
Dan

I hope this helps you out.

**Ephesians 2:11-21
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.**

Gentiles(by birth) in the Church warned not to boast against the broken branches of Israel. Also the grafting in.

**Romans 11:11:24
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!**

 

[Dan_Parker]

(continued…)

I hope this helps you out.

**Ephesians 2:11-21
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.**

Gentiles(by birth) in the Church warned not to boast against the broken branches of Israel. Also the grafting in.

**Romans 11:11:24
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!**

Thanks for the references. I was aware of the grafting language. It is necessary to harmonize all the verses that apply, don’t you agree? The one’s you have not yet harmonized are the ones that I quoted earlier to the effect that the kingdom had been taken away from the nation of Israel and that Gentiles are called Israel of God.

I would intepret Romans 11 in light of John 15. The Son is the true vine and the branches reside in him. Jesus replaced the nation of Israel as the “true” vine. At first only Jews were added to the vine, from Pentecost 33 CE until Cornelius. At this point only natural branches were on the vine. Then the Gentiles were added. Now there is neither Jew nor Greek.

This harmonizes all the verses and does not have difficulty with the ones I presented earlier.

Dan

 

[ryanoneil]

My opinion, your opinion, matters not on the 144,000. There is nothing scandulous or cryptic about God choosen 144,000 Israelis in the future to do whatever He plans for Him. The Church should rejoice in God’s eternal faithfulness to restore Israel in the final days leading up to the return of Jesus Christ.

It is His Word, Through His only Son.

The original understanding was that the 144,000 is symbolically the complete number of Jewish Christians brought into the Church before the fall of the Second Temple.

 

[Lev23]

The original understanding was that the 144,000 is symbolically the complete number of Jewish Christians brought into the Church before the fall of the Second Temple.

That would be convenient to the “Israel is of no more importance” crowd.

These 144,000 Israelis are servants of God in the tribulation, or Daniel’s 70th week.

 

[ryanoneil]

That would be convenient to the “Israel is of no more importance” crowd.

It could be misconstrued that way, but is not the case.

These 144,000 Israelis are servants of God in the tribulation, or Daniel’s 70th week.

Yes Jesus warned of this in the Olivet Discourse.

**"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. (Mt 24:15-19)

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people. (Luke 20:20-23)**

This was initially fulfilled with the destruction of the Second Temple. With the dawning of the New Covenant, God cleared away the central symbol of the Old Covenant. This prefigures the Second Coming of Chirst at the end of the visible world. Jesus is speaking to the Judean Jews who did not reject him during his Advent. They became Christian. The Sanhedrin and those in power were the ones who rejected Christ. It is not accurate for anyone to say Israel is of no importance. Throughout the rest of salvation history, there will be a remnant including the last days. I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out the historical understanding of the Early Church Fathers.

 

[ryanoneil]

The Mystery of what the the Kingdom of the Messiah would really be like has been reveiled.
**
He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted. To anyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; from anyone who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because ‘they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.’ Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’ "But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. Amen, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. (Mt 13:11-17)**

It is not a physical, political, conquering power. It is an interior kingdom in which Christ lives within the lives and hearts of men and women all over the world. For this reason, it will never be defeated or uprooted, as Daniel had foretold in his vision of the statue and the beast. Because it is a spiritual rule, no unbeliever would be able to enter it, as Zechariah stated. Jesus emphasized to an unbelieving Pilate that His was a spiritual Kingdom.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. 16 For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36-37)

The parable of the sower an the soils teaches that entrance to the Kingdom is open to all, but is dependent on a personal response to the “word” (Mt 13:3-23). The public encounter with His family reveals that, in the Kingdom, what matters is no longer a holy bloodline, but doing the will of my Father in Heaven (Mt 12:50). In the parable of the weeds and the wheat, Jesus explains that His Kingdom will have loyal, obedient subjects mingled with the evil and traitorous (Mt 13:24-30, 36-43). This is reiterated in the parable of the fishes (Mt 13:47-51).

 

[Lev23]

It could be misconstrued that way, but is not the case.

Yes Jesus warned of this in the Olivet Discourse.

**"When you see the desolating abomination spoken of through Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains, a person on the housetop must not go down to get things out of his house, a person in the field must not return to get his cloak. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days. (Mt 24:15-19)

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, know that its desolation is at hand. Then those in Judea must flee to the mountains. Let those within the city escape from it, and let those in the countryside not enter the city, for these days are the time of punishment when all the scriptures are fulfilled. Woe to pregnant women and nursing mothers in those days, for a terrible calamity will come upon the earth and a wrathful judgment upon this people. (Luke 20:20-23)**

This was initially fulfilled with the destruction of the Second Temple. With the dawning of the New Covenant, God cleared away the central symbol of the Old Covenant. This prefigures the Second Coming of Chirst at the end of the visible world. Jesus is speaking to the Judean Jews who did not reject him during his Advent. They became Christian. The Sanhedrin and those in power were the ones who rejected Christ. It is not accurate for anyone to say Israel is of no importance. Throughout the rest of salvation history, there will be a remnant including the last days. I wasn’t necessarily disagreeing with you, I was just pointing out the historical understanding of the Early Church Fathers.

The 144,000 sealed will take place in the last sabbatical year of Daniel’s 70 weeks. I understand that what Christ said in Matthew 24 has dual implications for Jerusalem and the people there, but the 144,000 is for sure a event that will happen in the tribulation.