1500 years and nobody thought of it?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mschrank
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow, so they could say. Abstain from sexual immorality …except of course unless you’re really in love.

What hypocrisy it would’ve been to have Jesus say he fulfilled the law, including that against blood, and then have his very disciples violate it.
Ever eat a ham sandwich? Who said you could violate that Law of Moses?😛
Why don’t Catholics understand what would’ve been the sheer hypocrisy of Christ’s words if He had actually meant to ingest his flesh and blood?? You make out your own Lord to be a liar.
Nonsense.

When Christ’s followers turned away from him, saying, “This is very hard” when He told them they must eat His body and drink His blood you notice He did not chase after them and say, “Hey, Y’all, I was only funnin’ ya.”
 
It helps to know the contemporary world and its practices when interpreting the Bible.😉

The Jewish practice was for the junior man to speak first – using the ritual words, “It is my decision.” Then the next junior would speak, using the same words, with a different or modified decision, and so on.

At the Council of Jerusalem, the junior man’s pronouncement required no modifications and was accepted.
Well, aside from the fact that your Judaism cultural training is completely in error. You’ll notice in verse 7 that Peter spoke first, therefore according to your own (albeit flawed) cultural understanding…Peter would’ve been the most Junior.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Then James finished up:

Act 15:13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:

Gotcha!
 
Ever eat a ham sandwich? Who said you could violate that Law of Moses?😛

Nonsense.

When Christ’s followers turned away from him, saying, “This is very hard” when He told them they must eat His body and drink His blood you notice He did not chase after them and say, “Hey, Y’all, I was only funnin’ ya.”
You’ll notice throughout the gospels Jesus NEVER chases after anyone who doesn’t accept his teachings. Even the rich young ruler went away sad although the Scriptures say that Jesus loved him. Jesus often spoke in parables and figuratively to obscure his teachings from those who really did not have a heart to hear.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
 
Well, aside from the fact that your Judaism cultural training is completely in error. You’ll notice in verse 7 that Peter spoke first, therefore according to your own (albeit flawed) cultural understanding…Peter would’ve been the most Junior.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Then James finished up:

Act 15:13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me:

Gotcha!
Wow, you tripped over it and didn’t even notice it.😃

The Council was in two parts (again, Jewish custom.) The first part was the debate phase, and the second was the decision phase.

Those qualified to judge participated in both phases. James was the first to speak in the decision phase.
 
You’ll notice throughout the gospels Jesus NEVER chases after anyone who doesn’t accept his teachings. Even the rich young ruler went away sad although the Scriptures say that Jesus loved him. Jesus often spoke in parables and figuratively to obscure his teachings from those who really did not have a heart to hear.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
And nowhere does Jesus claim His command to eat His body and drink His blood is a parable. In fact, He’s rather emphatic about it being His literal blood and body.

Now, how come you always ask questions, but never answer any?

You can start with my question about the ham sandwich.😛
 
Wow, you tripped over it and didn’t even notice it.😃

The Council was in two parts (again, Jewish custom.) The first part was the debate phase, and the second was the decision phase.

Those qualified to judge participated in both phases. James was the first to speak in the decision phase.
Wow, you just make it up as you go along don’t you?
 
That’s what I think. The real alternative to Catholicism is not Protestantism or Islam or JWism or Mormonism or even Atheism, but a pagan kind of zany-verse where Truth in any form does not exist and the gods do as they please.
Sounds very much like comedian (r.i.p.) Flip Wilson’s “Church of What’s Happening” - or the Unitarian church.
 
Wow, you just make it up as you go along don’t you?
You don’t think it was the Jewish custom to debate first, and decide later? 😃

And yes, in Rabinical debates, the junior decision-maker speaks first. After the debate.

Now tell me about the ham sandwich.😛
 
Let’s get back to the point SolaFide, a point which you illustrate so well.

If you’re right about your beliefs about what the Apostles really believed, then why did some people so far seperated in time, space and culture get it right (at least 1500 years) when those that followed them quite closely (some even knew the apostles personally) got it so wrong?

Don’t you see, it’s the same problem I have with Islam. Jesus’s associates get it all wrong, but Mohammed, coming 600 some years later, gets it right.

Heck, it’s even more absurd. Mohammed was a fellow semite only removed 600 years, the reformers were all knee-deep in Enlightenment era Europeans and seperated by over a thousand and a half years.

If what you say is the truth, why did it take people so long to come up with that interpretation and to ‘notice’?
 
Let’s get back to the point SolaFide, a point which you illustrate so well.

If you’re right about your beliefs about what the Apostles really believed, then why did some people so far seperated in time, space and culture get it right (at least 1500 years) when those that followed them quite closely (some even knew the apostles personally) got it so wrong?

Don’t you see, it’s the same problem I have with Islam. Jesus’s associates get it all wrong, but Mohammed, coming 600 some years later, gets it right.

Heck, it’s even more absurd. Mohammed was a fellow semite only removed 600 years, the reformers were all knee-deep in Enlightenment era Europeans and seperated by over a thousand and a half years.

If what you say is the truth, why did it take people so long to come up with that interpretation and to ‘notice’?
This is a good example of what I call “Garage Sale Theology.” It operates on the unspoken idea that the Bible was just discovered (perhaps found at a garage sale), and no one has ever read it before. The “discoverer” finds insights that no one ever found before.😉
 
And nowhere does Jesus claim His command to eat His body and drink His blood is a parable. In fact, He’s rather emphatic about it being His literal blood and body.

Now, how come you always ask questions, but never answer any?

You can start with my question about the ham sandwich.😛
Parables Christ told to the masses. When in private, Christ spoke in plain old Aramaic. And what He said in private to the Apostles was to take and eat His Body and drink His Blood. Even more important was that he then gave them His Body and Blood, and they ate and drank it.

Funny how, after 1,500 years, the Eucharist suddenly came to be figurative when a person who “used to be one of them” came along and said “Those others were all wrong. Listen to me. I have the truth” Sounds remarkably like: Mark 13:21-23 “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible”.

Because of the influence of the evil one, it is possible to fool some of the elect.

Christ’s peace.
 
Why don’t Catholics understand what would’ve been the sheer hypocrisy of Christ’s words if He had actually meant to ingest his flesh and blood?? You make out your own Lord to be a liar.
Boy, to take Christ on his Word, who would have thought one could go so wrong. If you dont believe what Christ said your issue is with Jesus not the Catholic Church. We didn’t write it or say it, Jesus did. Maybe if He had repeated the statement 5 times you would get it. I wonder if Jesus was testing us in the Beatitudes … how silly of me to confuse Blessedness with Peacemaking. Are you sure you interpret the Beatitudes correctly? Maybe he jumbled up a couple just to see if we would figure it out later. Hmm I better go check!
 
It’s a self refuting arguement- the more ‘plainly obvious’ it is, the LESS time it would take someone to figure it out.
 
This would indicate that Peter was an apostle to the Jews, not the Gentiles. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Not so fast, there! Acts 15:7
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Do you have to tear Cepha down to be Protestant? We venerate both Peter and Paul as Saints. You insult the Saint with the keys to heaven.
Also, if Peter was such a bastian of religious fortitude why did Paul have to rebuke him for his un-Christlike behavior for not acting in line with the truth of the Gospel?
Let’s see how your lofty opinion of Paul holds up against his own: Romans 7:17-20 “As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it”.
  • and -
Romans 7:22-25 “For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”

So, it appears they were all sinners. Soften your heart, as I try to soften mine.

Christ’s peace.
 
What hypocrisy it would’ve been to have Jesus say he fulfilled the law, including that against blood (of ANIMALS! Read Leviticus!), and then have his very disciples violate it. Why don’t Catholics understand what would’ve been the sheer hypocrisy of Christ’s words if He had actually meant to ingest his flesh and blood?? You make out your own Lord to be a liar.
Great private interpretation! We disagree. Vern Humphrey is right! How many times in John 6 does Christ say exactly this. Many disciples left Him because of the teaching. How come no one left him in droves over any other teaching? Hey, sola fide: do you have knowledge of the practices (Traditions) of the early church? Those traditions produced and preserved the bible that you now hold in your hands. Those Traditions produced a bible even thicker than the one you have - at least for 1,100 years. Then, someone’s ego decided they were smarter than the Early Church Fathers, and began ripping pages out of it. Revelation stopped with the death of the Apostle John, right? 1,400 years later Luther edited Sacred Scripture. And, you’re OK with this? :confused:

Christ did not write the bible. He neither commanded the writing of it by others nor mentioned such a project at all, or did He ever advise the Apostles to carry or teach from any such thing. So, why do you rely on something that is not approved by your Savior? Are you using a tradition of men? Christ instituted the Sacred teaching Tradition of the faith and handed it on to the Apostles for them to hand on just as it was. We are thankful the bible was written, but it is not Christ-ordered or approved.

Lighten up a little, huh?
 
Plenty of people thought of it …
!
Who, for example? Please give us a citation of a writer for the declaration of the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura prior the the 16th century. I’m not talking about scripture being profitable for teaching, correction, etc. Give a citation which says that Scripture Alone is the Sole Rule of Faith.
 
Who, for example? Please give us a citation of a writer for the declaration of the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura prior the the 16th century. I’m not talking about scripture being profitable for teaching, correction, etc. Give a citation which says that Scripture Alone is the Sole Rule of Faith.
Please do. If Prots are right, then I want to please God. No joke. Help me out.
 
Lots to say…

Not to get the whole Jesus thing started again, but good ol’ Paulie himself said that the cup was Christ’s bllod, the cup of the new covenant in 1 Cor 11:23-26. He goes on in 27-34 about recieving unworthily bringing condemnation. Yep. That sounds like he did not accept the Real Presance and it is only a symbol to me.

As far as not adressing Pete and the boys in Rome, remmember that Peter was persona non gratis in many places. For Paul to say “Hey, Cephas, how is it on the Tiber.” would call too much attention to him and hurt the chance ot place the church. Peter himself refers to Rome as Babylon. Why do that? To keep from giving himself away too soon.

When was the term “Trinity” first used? Was it before or after the doctrine was taught? After. Who coined it? The Catholics.

Another poster points out that you should check to good money first and compair it to the counterfit to see if it is good. If we are wrong about any one point, how can you tell any of the money apart?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top