1500 years and nobody thought of it?

[vern_humphrey]

And yet in the last two hundred years since Vatican I and the definition of that false hood look at what has taken place in the Catholic Church.
It is only the Orthodox that have stayed the same. The pope became the first among protestants as he refused the dignity of first among equals.

If you feel the need to trade insults, go debate with someone else.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

And for a lot of Protestants, Christianity appears to consist in little more than spewing vomit on Catholics. With this difference: This website is devoted to Catholic apologetics. We don’t go to Protestant websites and attack them. We merely defend Catholicism when they come here and attack us.

Oh, I see - what Jesus really meant by “Love one another” was “When your enemy slings dirt at you, make sure you sling even more dirt at him”.​

So now we know.

All that shows is that Christians of both kinds, & not only of one, are rather less amiable than a sack of skunks.

 

[po18guy]

And you interpret this to mean the Pope? That is interpretation. One of the things I find interesting is that the comon Christian does not know the difference between interpretation with aplication, and explicit teachings of scripture. For example: the present topic would be an interpretation that would be applied to the doctrine of papal supremacy. Chapel veils, as you have come to call them in the west, are explicit teachings of scripture.
“Call no man father” is a seeming explicit teaching to many protestants. They miss the implicit “Call no man pastor, borther, etc.”. This would be where protestants do the same as the Catholics and show themselves to be but to sides of the same coin.

Well, Trinity, purgatory and many other things are implicit in scripture and explicit in Tradition. Tradition is living, possessing the ability to “apologize” and thereby is more reliable, since disciples can be corrected if in error. Christ chose that form to spread the faith. Sola scriptura spreads not unity, but division, as there is no monlithic interpretation to lead and unify the faithful. The same with sola fide, as again there is no central authority to maintain unity.

Consider: Where you work, there is probably a mission statement. Now, does everyone just read that statement and then do whatever they think is right? Or, is there a supervisor to keep the organization directed? That was a function of Cepha. That is a function of Benedict XVI.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Oh, I see - what Jesus really meant by “Love one another” was “When your enemy slings dirt at you, make sure you sling even more dirt at him”.​

So now we know.

All that shows is that Christians of both kinds, & not only of one, are rather less amiable than a sack of skunks.

My aren’t we holier than thou!

 

[po18guy]

Yes, it would be interesting to know which of the Apostles talks about the Immaculate Conception; or Transub’ion; or a lot of othe things that we have as dogmas, of which no Apostle or Father speaks one word.​

If we have ways of getting around the silences & negations of our dogmas that are in RC tradition - there is every reason to believe that Protestants have ways of dealing with what we might see as difficulties in their doctrines.

We are in exactly the same position - our tradition is every bit as wonky as that of Protestantism. So why the non-stop fighting ? How does one one lice-infested beggar differ from another ?

Of the two, only one is lead by the fullness of truth. Both have truth in them. They are both called to a richer practice of their faith. Consider the Sacraments. Which of the original seven would you give up? Is not the number seven the ancient figure for completion? Just musing here…

Christ’s peace this Advent and Christmas.

 

[ralphinal]

Their are Catholics who deny the virgin birth of Christ. Some are seminary Profs.
Their are some episcopal comunions as well as some ELCA Lutherens that see the Resurection as Alegory.

We must understand the difference between what a faith teaches and what individuals believe. Catholic Dogma is Virgin Birth of Christ and Resurection. If you do not accept that, you may say you are Catholic, but you are not. Does the ELCA Church teach it or are you talking about individual members? Same question with Episcopals. It is a problem with allowing people into the Church. They can sin all they want.

 

[Schabel]

Resurection
Divinty of Jesus
Virgin Birth

The inspiration of the Bible (at least, 66/73 of it!).

 

[surgei]

Well, Trinity, purgatory and many other things are implicit in scripture and explicit in Tradition. Tradition is living, possessing the ability to “apologize” and thereby is more reliable, since disciples can be corrected if in error. Christ chose that form to spread the faith. Sola scriptura spreads not unity, but division, as there is no monlithic interpretation to lead and unify the faithful. The same with sola fide, as again there is no central authority to maintain unity.

Consider: Where you work, there is probably a mission statement. Now, does everyone just read that statement and then do whatever they think is right? Or, is there a supervisor to keep the organization directed? That was a function of Cepha. That is a function of Benedict XVI.

I don’t ascribe to sola scriptora. Don’t think I do. Pleeeaaassseee don’t think I do.
In that you say tradition is more reliable you counter the heratic position of Sola Scriptora with another heretical position. I don’t think you intended to say it in that light so I will ignore it as I respectfuly ask my other forum members to do as well.
As you see the Pope as the source of unity you miss the true source of unity. Christ in the eucharist. It is not authority we have here but humility.
I think this leads me to point out a major difference between authentic Christian tradition and what became the tradition of the west. Christian tradition is not about having authority to teach but having humility to conform to Christ. It is when they lost this subtle insite that the great church of the west fell. Instead of seeking to be formed by their fathers, they set out to be judges. It is only in that we are formed that we have the power to teach. Teaching is a secondary call on any bishops life. The primary call is to be formed into the likeness of Christ our true God.

 

[EphelDuath]

Peter wasn’t a first among equals. He had the keys to Heaven, not the other apostles.

 

[po18guy]

As you see the Pope as the source of unity you miss the true source of unity. Christ in the eucharist. It is not authority we have here but humility.

Benedict XVI is not the source of unity. He is its earthly exponent.

I think this leads me to point out a major difference between authentic Christian tradition and what became the tradition of the west. Christian tradition is not about having authority to teach but having humility to conform to Christ.

Without the teaching authority all else is meaningless. The faith is taught. Someone has to both have the authority and be in charge, don’t you think? What about the Patriarch? Why have one, then?

It is when they lost this subtle insite that the great church of the west fell. Instead of seeking to be formed by their fathers, they set out to be judges. It is only in that we are formed that we have the power to teach. Teaching is a secondary call on any bishops life. The primary call is to be formed into the likeness of Christ our true God.

“Test everything, retain what is good”. That’s what they do. Every Protestant leader firmly believes they are formed into some likeness of Christ. How does that serve unity? Our greatest call is obedience to Christ via Cepha’s successor. Lack of obedience is what fractures the Body of Christ, isn’t it? Anyway, I pray for reunification of east and west. Please don’t rule it out.

Christ’s peace.

 

[Petergee]

Indeed ? And how would you know that ?​

Maybe you’re confusing uniformity with unity in the Holy Spirit. They are not the same at all. If you are right, then an awful lot of Catholic polemic on these fora & against Protestants is a waste of time.

For a lot of Catholics, Christianity appears to consist in little more than spewing vomit on Protestants

That’s a remarkably aggressive accusation in response to my one simple observation. I made no “polemic” let alone “spew vomit”. If you mean to say that you think I am wrong, please name one Catholic doctrine which is accepted by all protestants. As you obviously believe you have done far more “homework” than I.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think this leads me to point out a major difference between authentic Christian tradition and what became the tradition of the west. Christian tradition is not about having authority to teach but having humility to conform to Christ.

Did not Christ commission the Apostles? Did He not send them out to teach?

26 Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.”
27 So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
28 and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29 The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.”
30 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

(Acts, 8, 26-32)
How can we conform to Christ if we do not understand Christ? And as for understanding Him, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?”

 

[po18guy]

Oh Oh…

Too bad we can’t use web cams to capture the tonal inflection and facial expressions in the posts. Nah…

Christ’s peace this Advent and Christmas.

 

[surgei]

Did not Christ commission the Apostles? Did He not send them out to teach?

(Acts, 8, 26-32)
How can we conform to Christ if we do not understand Christ? And as for understanding Him, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?”

He sent them out to make disciples. Look into this word deaply.
It is only in our conformity to Christ that we can instruct. Notice this passage starts with Phillip being conformed to the leading of the Holy Spirit. St. Seraphim said: “First aquire Peace within, that is the Holy Spirit, then thousands around you will be saved”.
This august saint hid himself in the woods. Thousands upon thousands came to him.
Patriarchs teach only in their conformity to Christ. When a bishop, even of a great city falls he is removed. Catholics error in that they do not see that they can and often times should remove a Pope. They have proclaimed often times those things which are foreign to the fathers, the apostles and to Christ. In doing this they show that they are not conformed to Christ. As such they should have been deposed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

He sent them out to make disciples.

And they did this by selling brushes door-to-door?

Or did they do it by teaching?

Look into this word deaply.
It is only in our conformity to Christ that we can instruct.

I don’t know about you, but I was born naked, barefooted and illiterate. Before I could conform, I had to be taught.

Notice this passage starts with Phillip being conformed to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

But only after being taught by Christ, being trained to teach and being visited by the Holy Spirit.

St. Seraphim said: “First aquire Peace within, that is the Holy Spirit, then thousands around you will be saved”.
This august saint hid himself in the woods. Thousands upon thousands came to him.

And did he teach about Phillip and the Ethopian?

If not, what is the relevance of referring to him?

Patriarchs teach only in their conformity to Christ. When a bishop, even of a great city falls he is removed. Catholics error in that they do not see that they can and often times should remove a Pope. They have proclaimed often times those things which are foreign to the fathers, the apostles and to Christ. In doing this they show that they are not conformed to Christ. As such they should have been deposed.

Then why are you here, disputing with us? Why not simply conform to Christ, and we will be impressed and converted?

 

[po18guy]

He sent them out to make disciples. Look into this word deaply.

But how? Hypnosis? Or via teaching with authority?

It is only in our conformity to Christ that we can instruct. (without error) Notice this passage starts with Phillip being conformed to the leading of the Holy Spirit. St. Seraphim said: “First aquire Peace within, that is the Holy Spirit, then thousands around you will be saved”.
This august saint hid himself in the woods. Thousands upon thousands came to him.

Patriarchs teach only in their conformity to Christ. When a bishop, even of a great city falls he is removed. Catholics error in that they do not see that they can and often times should remove a Pope.

So, the gates of hell did prevail? Your idea applies only to the current Pope. Those in the past have answered for their iniquities.

Christ’s peace.

 

[mschrank]

Wow, this thread sure has gone off-track.

Anyway the challenge still stands. It’s not about Catholic vs. Protestant interpretation of verse X and the respective merits of each.

It’s why it took everyone so long to come up with that interpretation if that interpretation is the simplest (i.e., requires no tradition just the text itself).

 

[Petergee]

And my challenge to Gottle still stands, to “name one Catholic doctrine which is accepted by all protestants.”

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Catholics believe in the doctrine that there is a God.

What protestant wouldn’t believe that?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Catholics believe in the doctrine that there is a God.

What protestant wouldn’t believe that?

Some come awfully close – there are Protestant sects who believe the moral teaching of Christianity is independent of God. Read the Jefferson Bible, for example.