19 Kids and Counting

[Sarcelle]

All dates are chaperoned, sometimes by their little brothers. Some chaperone.

Well it could be effective.

Having your little brother around can put the brakes on any less than chaste ideas.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

All dates are chaperoned, sometimes by their little brothers. Some chaperone.

I watched a clip after reading this thread and it showed the young couple and a younger sibling crammed in the tiny cab of a small truck. The conversation pretty innocent but it was a bit too mushy. No one should have to listen to that, especially a younger sibling.

 

[bitterhope]

It sounds old fashioned, but why is that wrong or bad in any sort of way? It used to be that all couples were chaperoned by someone at all times. Romantic love and alone time are pretty new ideas when it comes to relationships, and it can even be argued it does as much if not more harm than good in marriage. Single parenthood, living together, divorce and remarriage are now common place. It isn’t an idea I plan to implement for my family. I honestly hope mine all have religious vocations instead. If it works for them, though, I still don’t see how it is wrong.

 

[masondoggy]

Many of the criticism I see hurled towards the Duggars are very similar to the ones hurled at my grandparents, parents, my own, and just about every other large family I’ve ever met. It’s always people saying that they fear for our kids’ well being, education, work load, etc. that’s probably why I get so fed up with it. People look at my house and see 8 kids under 15 and think it must be horrible for them. How do they get attention? How do they feed them? How do they get school work done? The older kids change diapers?!? How awful! And tons worse things go on. My grandmother had 16 kids in 19 years so for me, my house is empty. Add on my husband gone 75% of the time and it’s obvious to most that I must be either neglectful or abusive. Neither is true. So what if Michelle Duggar spanks her kids at times. So what if her kids need to help with caring for each other. If someone has only 1-5 kids they are not going to need to live the way those of us with 6+ live. And me with my 8 will not need to do things the way my grandmother did with 16. Her kids seem fine to me. None are in legal trouble. None are neglected, starving or beaten up. They are all happy and healthy so something must be going right. Maybe in material ways they will not be as successful as other families. Maybe they will not have a few different degrees or whatever. But not everyone measured success in worldly ways. If things were not going well for them spiritually or emotionally, as often as they are in the public eye, it would be known and held up as proof of how bad it is to have a family that size. They are living counter culturally, no doubt about that. But so should we as Catholics. They aren’t Catholic so we can’t really compare them to our religious standards, but as Christians they are doing fine. So what if others live differently than the secular would says they should.

I agree reality TV isn’t real. Too much scripting and editing is done for it to be real. But just as the truth about other reality stars and famous people of various entertainment/political/sport/whatever field’s life and behavior is common knowledge, this family would as well if they could dig up any garbage.

Please don’t take my comments the wrong way. I have nothing against large families or big kids helping out with siblings. My grandma came from a family of 13 and had 13 herself. I think having a large family is a huge blessing. Like I said, I don’t agree with everything the Duggars do but every family has their own way of doing things that doesn’t mean that I’m critical of them. I believe they are doing a lot of things RIGHT and they definitely have my respect for that.

I’m just sharing that I have had concerns recently about the method that they use to marry their very young daughters off to men who are not even close to being ready for marriage or supporting a family, much less a very large family. And since these couples never have any time alone to get to know each other, it puts them at great risk of being married to somebody that is a very poor match for them. So you may wind up with a couple that really didn’t know each other well enough and when they start discovering the problems that brings up after the wedding combined with the fact that they’re struggling to pay the bills and you have a recipe for a lot of stress and heartache.

I am concerned that some of their practices are setting their daughters up for very difficult marriages unnecessarily. There’s no reason why they can’t allow them to have opportunities for private conversation and encourage them to hold the wedding off until the guy has maintained a job capable of supporting a household.

 

[bitterhope]

I don’t disagree with you on that, but it is very possible that we aren’t shown the full story on that either. It’s possible through editing and cutting and scripting that some major details are left out. It is possible that it is done purposely to make them seem even more counter cultural to the public and therefore make more people talk and watch and discuss. I don’t know fir sure but that is the nature of reality TV in general. It’s very possible that the arrangements are much more detailed, kind of like dating services do. Lots of marriages throughout history have been arranged by parents and several (including most likely the Holy Family) have turned out beautifully.

I have no interest in arranging relationships for my kids. My parents never did with us, but we were chaperoned for the most part. Still, two sisters, including a very young pre-dating age teen, and one brother found their way around the chaperoning. Our dates were only chaperoned between 16-17. At 17 we were dating without constant supervision but still there were clear rules (curfew, number if dates per week, amount of time allowed to date, etc.). I’m not sure I’m going to be that strict yet, but they won’t date until 16 so I’ve got about a year to decide for sure. My husband’s mom was determined to arrange his marriage. She started on her quest when he was about 14, but he found his way around that too. It’s possible that the girls are ok with this, and if they are, probably their marriages will be just fine because they believe in their hearts in that sort of marriage. I don’t, my husband doesn’t, and I’m not about to help my kids for the very reasons you mention. However, I don’t see that it is wrong for their family if that’s the sort of thing that works for them.

 

[masondoggy]

I don’t disagree with you on that, but it is very possible that we aren’t shown the full story on that either. It’s possible through editing and cutting and scripting that some major details are left out. It is possible that it is done purposely to make them seem even more counter cultural to the public and therefore make more people talk and watch and discuss. I don’t know fir sure but that is the nature of reality TV in general. It’s very possible that the arrangements are much more detailed, kind of like dating services do. Lots of marriages throughout history have been arranged by parents and several (including most likely the Holy Family) have turned out beautifully.

I have no interest in arranging relationships for my kids. My parents never did with us, but we were chaperoned for the most part. Still, two sisters, including a very young pre-dating age teen, and one brother found their way around the chaperoning. Our dates were only chaperoned between 16-17. At 17 we were dating without constant supervision but still there were clear rules (curfew, number if dates per week, amount of time allowed to date, etc.). I’m not sure I’m going to be that strict yet, but they won’t date until 16 so I’ve got about a year to decide for sure. My husband’s mom was determined to arrange his marriage. She started on her quest when he was about 14, but he found his way around that too. It’s possible that the girls are ok with this, and if they are, probably their marriages will be just fine because they believe in their hearts in that sort of marriage. I don’t, my husband doesn’t, and I’m not about to help my kids for the very reasons you mention. However, I don’t see that it is wrong for their family if that’s the sort of thing that works for them.

Yes you’re right, we may not see everything. But I am just going on what they put out there. I do hope that these couples have really had opportunities behind the scenes to have the kinds of conversations that couples need to have before marriage. It’s so important.

 

[bitterhope]

You and me both.

Honestly, if the Duggars were catholic and doing this same practice of finding their daughters’ husbands for them, I would be opposed to it. Our faith teaches us that a couple needs to do the finding, courting and marrying themselves. As far as I’m aware, not all Christian religions see things that way. If it’s not opposed to their faith, it is completely up to them to raise their family as they see fit. But for a Catholic (like my mother in law), it goes against our faith so it would be wrong. That’s probably a big reason why it bothers us.

 

[petitfleur]

I actually think they are more extreme than how they are portrayed on television. It is true they are patriarchal, women are possessions. No proper education, raised to think their sole purpose is to marry and raise children. Expected to stay home and take care of the family until marriage. The wedding ceremony is where there is a transfer of authority from the father to the husband. I don’t have a problem with siblings helping out, but the buddies actually raise their sibling, including getting up at night after they are weaned.
A woman choosing to court, marry, be completely submissive to their husband, and have as many kids as possible is ok as long as she’s chooses it. I also think she should at least have some sort of skill or education in case the marriage does not work out. Most nuns I know have a college education. The only exceptions are the older ones. The novices at my old workplace are much better educated than them.
I only have four kids, and sometimes as I am getting ready for bed the thought occurs to me I have not had a real conversation with my 13 year old in a few days, or spen quality time with another kid. I think if I had any more kids my family would suffer. I also despise housework, and cooking. If that life were forced on me I can’t imagine what would happen. I am certain I would hate a God that said this is how it had to be.I am back at school and grateful I have the choice. I love every second of being in school and really think it has made me a better person and mother.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I haven’t posted here for ages but this topic did inspire me to speak up. It does seem that the Duggar approach to “courtship” is very close to arranged marriage, especially for the girls. I have also noticed this “grass is greener” type attitude toward arranged marriage among some conservatives that I think is really misguided.

Most people who idealize arranged marriage seem to assume “since they are less likely to end in divorce, they are more successful than ‘love’ marriages”, without accounting for the fact that most cultures who practice arranged marriage also stigmatize divorce very strongly compared to cultures that don’t. Many such cultures also see women as property, and many also have traditions of polygamy and/or concubinage, and tolerate domestic violence.

The idea that if a marriage doesn’t end in divorce than it is automatically a “success” is ludicrous to me. Is a marriage in which a wife is terrorized by a husband daily, openly cheated on, and treated more like a broodmare and household drudge than an equal life partner, really a “success” just because it doesn’t end in divorce, but, say, the wife dying in childbirth?

Not that I think ALL arranged marriages are abusive, just that they’re not perfect, either. And probably, the Duggar kids are not at that high a risk of entering an actual abusive marriage. But some abusive people do a very good job hiding what they’re really like, even to a prospective spouse’s parents. And I don’t have a problem in itself with the idea of Jim Bob being some kind of gatekeeper for his daughters. However, what I’ve seen with all the Duggar “courtships” (including Josh, the eldest son) is that there is/was very strong pressure for the young couples to marry, even when there are serious warning signs such as Ben/Jessa. To a point that I think there would be a strong case of annulment if brought up to a Catholic tribunal.

I have no problem with large families, and some of the other families highlighted by TLC seem much more mainstream even if they also follow a “quiverfull” lifestyle. But they do really seem to believe women should always be under a man’s authority and doesn’t have the capacity to make independent decisions. As far as I know that is not Catholic teaching. Also, I suppose some will say, the idea that people should be happy in their marriages at all is some modernist bunk, and perhaps bring up Saints who were in abusive marriages as an example. But per Catholic teaching one of the purposes of marriage is to help the other spouse get to heaven. That would be difficult if the spouses wind up hating each other, wouldn’t it? Even if they don’t get divorced/separated?

 

[masondoggy]

I haven’t posted here for ages but this topic did inspire me to speak up. It does seem that the Duggar approach to “courtship” is very close to arranged marriage, especially for the girls. I have also noticed this “grass is greener” type attitude toward arranged marriage among some conservatives that I think is really misguided.

Most people who idealize arranged marriage seem to assume “since they are less likely to end in divorce, they are more successful than ‘love’ marriages”, without accounting for the fact that most cultures who practice arranged marriage also stigmatize divorce very strongly compared to cultures that don’t. Many such cultures also see women as property, and many also have traditions of polygamy and/or concubinage, and tolerate domestic violence.

The idea that if a marriage doesn’t end in divorce than it is automatically a “success” is ludicrous to me. Is a marriage in which a wife is terrorized by a husband daily, openly cheated on, and treated more like a broodmare and household drudge than an equal life partner, really a “success” just because it doesn’t end in divorce, but, say, the wife dying in childbirth?

Not that I think ALL arranged marriages are abusive, just that they’re not perfect, either. And probably, the Duggar kids are not at that high a risk of entering an actual abusive marriage. But some abusive people do a very good job hiding what they’re really like, even to a prospective spouse’s parents. And I don’t have a problem in itself with the idea of Jim Bob being some kind of gatekeeper for his daughters. However, what I’ve seen with all the Duggar “courtships” is that there is very strong pressure for the young couples to marry, even when there are serious warning signs such as Ben/Jessa. To a point that I think there would be a strong case of annulment if brought up to a Catholic tribunal.

I have no problem with large families, and some of the other families highlighted by TLC seem much more mainstream even if they also follow a “quiverfull” lifestyle. But they do really seem to believe women should always be under a man’s authority and doesn’t have the capacity to make independent decisions. As far as I know that is not Catholic teaching. Also, per Catholic teaching one of the purposes of marriage is to help the other spouse get to heaven. That would be difficult if the spouses wind up hating each other, wouldn’t it? Even if they don’t get divorced?

I agree with you.

 

[Faith1960]

Please don’t take my comments the wrong way. I have nothing against large families or big kids helping out with siblings. My grandma came from a family of 13 and had 13 herself. I think having a large family is a huge blessing. Like I said, I don’t agree with everything the Duggars do but every family has their own way of doing things that doesn’t mean that I’m critical of them. I believe they are doing a lot of things RIGHT and they definitely have my respect for that.

I’m just sharing that I have had concerns recently about the method that they use to marry their very young daughters off to men who are not even close to being ready for marriage or supporting a family, much less a very large family. And since these couples never have any time alone to get to know each other, it puts them at great risk of being married to somebody that is a very poor match for them. So you may wind up with a couple that really didn’t know each other well enough and when they start discovering the problems that brings up after the wedding combined with the fact that they’re struggling to pay the bills and you have a recipe for a lot of stress and heartache.

I am concerned that some of their practices are setting their daughters up for very difficult marriages unnecessarily. There’s no reason why they can’t allow them to have opportunities for private conversation and encourage them to hold the wedding off until the guy has maintained a job capable of supporting a household.

Itll be interesting to see how the Jessa/Ben relationship turns out in a few years.
OThis week she actually asked him, on camera during the interview part of the show. "Are we engaged " i mean, he’s so immature and wishy washy she didnt even know!

 

[Faith1960]

I actually think they are more extreme than how they are portrayed on television. It is true they are patriarchal, women are possessions. No proper education, raised to think their sole purpose is to marry and raise children. Expected to stay home and take care of the family until marriage. The wedding ceremony is where there is a transfer of authority from the father to the husband. I don’t have a problem with siblings helping out, but the buddies actually raise their sibling, including getting up at night after they are weaned.
A woman choosing to court, marry, be completely submissive to their husband, and have as many kids as possible is ok as long as she’s chooses it. I also think she should at least have some sort of skill or education in case the marriage does not work out. Most nuns I know have a college education. The only exceptions are the older ones. The novices at my old workplace are much better educated than them.
I only have four kids, and sometimes as I am getting ready for bed the thought occurs to me I have not had a real conversation with my 13 year old in a few days, or spen quality time with another kid. I think if I had any more kids my family would suffer. I also despise housework, and cooking. If that life were forced on me I can’t imagine what would happen. I am certain I would hate a God that said this is how it had to be.I am back at school and grateful I have the choice. I love every second of being in school and really think it has made me a better person and mother.

Except for Josie who was very very premature, i rarely if ever, see Michelle raising her kids.

 

[bitterhope]

All the problems you mention for arranged marriages happen in love marriages just as often if not more often, since the majority if marriages now are not arranged, and domestic violence and divorce are on the rise. Marriage is just plain hard no matter how it comes about. It’s not an easy thing to navigate. That’s a big part if why many couples never marry and choose to live together and have children together instead. Marriage is tough. It’s bit easy, no matter how we go about it. Fairy tales don’t exist. A faithful Catholic family doesn’t live the same lifestyle that the Duggars do, but that doesn’t mean that it is wrong for them. Many ways faithful Catholics live are looked down upon by society as well. Are we wrong for abiding by our faith and morals?

 

[masondoggy]

   A woman choosing to court, marry, be completely submissive to their husband, and have as many kids as possible is ok as long as she's chooses it..

And here is where I see a problem. I think these girls DO want this lifestyle and that is fine but the problem comes in when they have been completely sheltered their whole lives and trained to completely 100% trust their dad’s authority and decisions for their lives. So these girls are trusting Jim Bob to completely vet the guys they agree to marry and choose the right guy. While they are young and not completely matured yet and have no “real world” experience, they are just completely trusting that daddy is going to make sure they marry a good guy.

They know nothing else.

And they never get a real chance to get to know this guy until the wedding night. If dad misses a red flag, SHE pays. And it could be very easy for dad to miss a red flag because the guy is always on his best, guarded behavior around dad.

 

[bitterhope]

Except for Josie who was very very premature, i rarely if ever, see Michelle raising her kids.

The thing is though, if she hasn’t raised any of her kids, none of them would know how to raise the younger ones the way it is put out there that they are doing. Someone must of taught them how to be mothers

 

[masondoggy]

Itll be interesting to see how the Jessa/Ben relationship turns out in a few years.
OThis week she actually asked him, on camera during the interview part of the show. "Are we engaged " i mean, he’s so immature and wishy washy she didnt even know!

See that’s what I mean about communication. They don’t even know how to communicate as a couple because they haven’t been allowed the opportunity to communicate as a couple does. Very, very concerning, imo.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

And just to clarify, I realize that many arranged marriages work out well, as I actually know many people who are in them. However, they have fights and arguments and problems as well. There’s nothing magical about arranged marriage. The other caveat is that the quality of such marriages really depends on the motives and competence of the people arranging them.

Certainly, many parents pay attention to actual compatibility, not just social class and political connections. Also, in many traditional cultures, while some children do choose their own spouses the parents are understood to have veto power and this is often exercised to prevent people from getting into disastrous marriages merely out of hormones.

But not all parents really care about the happiness of their children, merely about the social, financial, and political advantages the match will bring to the family, and unfortunately many parents of daughters don’t even care if they’re outright abused. Many such cultures often denigrate romantic love as an illusion based merely on lust. Oh, and that’s not even getting into the whole “honor killing” that has been known to happen in such cultures when daughters dare to make their own choices regarding marriage, or anything significant.

Now, I am NOT accusing the Duggars of being anything like that, I’m sure they DO care about the happiness of their children, and I realize that many fundamentalist Christians think parents having a large role in choosing a spouse and pushing for early marriage is good because it preserves children from sexual sin and emotional pain. And it does seem Jill and Derek are happy. But Derek is older and seems much more mature than Ben is. It seems the Duggars are trying to force Ben into a mold of “ideal husband/father figure” that he’s obviously not at this point. Maybe in five years he would be. However, I suspect Ben and Jessa are in for some very rocky newlywed times. I hope I’m wrong, though.

 

[bitterhope]

I actually think they are more extreme than how they are portrayed on television. It is true they are patriarchal, women are possessions. No proper education, raised to think their sole purpose is to marry and raise children. Expected to stay home and take care of the family until marriage. The wedding ceremony is where there is a transfer of authority from the father to the husband. I don’t have a problem with siblings helping out, but the buddies actually raise their sibling, including getting up at night after they are weaned.
A woman choosing to court, marry, be completely submissive to their husband, and have as many kids as possible is ok as long as she’s chooses it. I also think she should at least have some sort of skill or education in case the marriage does not work out. Most nuns I know have a college education. The only exceptions are the older ones. The novices at my old workplace are much better educated than them.
I only have four kids, and sometimes as I am getting ready for bed the thought occurs to me I have not had a real conversation with my 13 year old in a few days, or spen quality time with another kid. I think if I had any more kids my family would suffer. I also despise housework, and cooking. If that life were forced on me I can’t imagine what would happen. I am certain I would hate a God that said this is how it had to be.I am back at school and grateful I have the choice. I love every second of being in school and really think it has made me a better person and mother.

I’m sorry your life is so hectic with four kids. But I’ll tell you, I have never run into that problem with my eight. I really don’t think the number of kids in a family is the deciding factor when it comes down to the interactions between parents and kids. Many moms of two mention the same issue of not having time to talk to or be with each of the kids. Lots of parents with 6+ kids don’t have that trouble. Lifestyle is a big deciding factor.

 

[masondoggy]

And just to clarify, I realize that many arranged marriages work out well, as I actually know many people who are in them. However, they have fights and arguments and problems as well. There’s nothing magical about arranged marriage. The other caveat is that the quality of such marriages really depends on the motives and competence of the people arranging them.

Certainly, many parents pay attention to actual compatibility, not just social class and political connections. Also, in many traditional cultures, while some children do choose their own spouses the parents are understood to have veto power and this is often exercised to prevent people from getting into disastrous marriages merely out of hormones.

But not all parents really care about the happiness of their children, merely about the social, financial, and political advantages the match will bring to the family, and unfortunately many parents of daughters don’t even care if they’re outright abused. Many such cultures often denigrate romantic love as an illusion based merely on lust. Oh, and that’s not even getting into the whole “honor killing” that has been known to happen in such cultures when daughters dare to make their own choices regarding marriage, or anything significant.

Now, I am NOT accusing the Duggars of being anything like that, I’m sure they DO care about the happiness of their children, and I realize that many fundamentalist Christians think parents having a large role in choosing a spouse and pushing for early marriage is good because it preserves children from sexual sin and emotional pain. And it does seem Jill and Derek are happy. But Derek is older and seems much more mature than Ben is. It seems the Duggars are trying to force Ben into a mold of “ideal husband/father figure” that he’s obviously not at this point. Maybe in five years he would be. However, I suspect Ben and Jessa are in for some very rocky newlywed times. I hope I’m wrong, though.

Exactly. I think Ben is only like 19 or something and Derek is 25. That is a HUGE difference in maturity in a man. Oh my goodness, I started dating my DH when he was 19 and I couldn’t imagine marrying him at that age.

And here’s what ends up happening in situations like this: they get married and the shock of actually being married hits the guy very hard and after awhile it just suffocates him. Then one day it’s found out that he’s got a few girls on the side and then he just up and walks out on his wife because he just can’t take being tied down anymore and wants to reclaim what youth he has left. And there’s Jessa, with NO job skills, left with 3-4 young kids on her own.

THAT is what happens when men get married before they’ve grown up. I know because I lived it. Hence my deep concern.

I’m not all that concerned about Jill. I am very worried for Jessa.

 

[Faith1960]

And just to clarify, I realize that many arranged marriages work out well, as I actually know many people who are in them. However, they have fights and arguments and problems as well. There’s nothing magical about arranged marriage. The other caveat is that the quality of such marriages really depends on the motives and competence of the people arranging them.

Certainly, many parents pay attention to actual compatibility, not just social class and political connections. Also, in many traditional cultures, while some children do choose their own spouses the parents are understood to have veto power and this is often exercised to prevent people from getting into disastrous marriages merely out of hormones.

But not all parents really care about the happiness of their children, merely about the social, financial, and political advantages the match will bring to the family, and unfortunately many parents of daughters don’t even care if they’re outright abused. Many such cultures often denigrate romantic love as an illusion based merely on lust. Oh, and that’s not even getting into the whole “honor killing” that has been known to happen in such cultures when daughters dare to make their own choices regarding marriage, or anything significant.

Now, I am NOT accusing the Duggars of being anything like that, I’m sure they DO care about the happiness of their children, and I realize that many fundamentalist Christians think parents having a large role in choosing a spouse and pushing for early marriage is good because it preserves children from sexual sin and emotional pain. And it does seem Jill and Derek are happy. But Derek is older and seems much more mature than Ben is. It seems the Duggars are trying to force Ben into a mold of “ideal husband/father figure” that he’s obviously not at this point. Maybe in five years he would be. However, I suspect Ben and Jessa are in for some very rocky newlywed times. I hope I’m wrong, though.

Jim Bob is always asking Ben questions and putting him on the spot. He looks like he has no idea whats going on.