2 disagreements so im not a real Catholic?

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Charlemagne, I think you misread me. You said (seemingly in objection to my post) :
I think there are Catholics who struggle with all these issues, either because they have been caught up in them personally, or because a loved one has. But Catholics at this forum really cannot be free to defend heresies and false teachings. This forum certainly was not established for such a purpose.
Apparently you were capturing the word I used, “struggle.” Struggle means just that; it does not mean surrender to temptation. It means, in the context I am using it, difficulty accepting one or more Church teachings; it does not translate to refusal to accept those teachings, necessarily. Most of the saints struggled, with sin, with their religious orders, etc; many, if not most, current Catholics struggle.

I tried to distinguish in my post the concept of mere struggle (much of will be internal) without non-compliance, from open opposition in practice, and/or from characterizing acceptable Church teaching as being undifferentiated from one’s individual opinion.
 
Catechism:

158 “Faith seeks understanding”:33 it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith, and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penetrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. the grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts"34 to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God’s plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the centre of the revealed mystery. "The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood."35 In the words of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand; and I understand, the better to believe."36
 
To whom are you addressing posts 235 and 236, Bookcat? Are you addressing them to the OP?

You need to be more clear than merely lifting quotes without directing them to anyone in partcular.
 
To whom are you addressing posts 235 and 236, Bookcat? Are you addressing them to the OP?

You need to be more clear than merely lifting quotes without directing them to anyone in partcular.
General posts…for the benefit of any who read the thread (hence no names included)
 
Which in itself is a judgment. I can totally understand people having problems with some of the teachings of the church, as I’ve expressed I have some problems myself. But that does not mean that it is okay to criticize those who don’t.
If the shoe fits. Wear it. If not, then throw it back in the closet. 😉 You bet its a judgement. I also like Ford, and dislike Chrystler. Oops! Another judgment. I dont like the ultra right or the ultra lefts views. They are both in my opinion, incorrect. Peace 🙂
 
I read the first few notes on this topic but did not find what those two things are that you disagree with. Sooo I went to the last page, still didn’t find it. Then I went to the second to the last page and noticed something you wrote “If Rome is false…” I think that I will call your bluff. I do not think that you are any kind of Catholic I’m a bettin’ that you are from the Reformed camp of some sort. Those are the folks who call the Church “Rome”. Also if you leave vodka out of a bloody mary, or if you leave tomato juice out of a bloody mary, you ain’t got no bloody mary. Well I just realized that I had to change this last line, I had written something about McDonald’s and hamburgers and realized that it is a no-no here.

Annie
Very interesting post my dear Sister in Christ. Yes, I am a real Catholic. I am a convert from a Reformed back ground, so in a sense you could say you are correct. If you doubt my loyalty to Catholicism, then I will direct you to research my threads and post I have started over the last 2 years. I would invite you to see the fights I have had with protestants and Adventist, over such important issues, as the Marian Dogmas, the Trinity, the real presence and the Papacy. Feel free. I have nothing to hide. the reason I will not post my disagreements, is that they will become the focus, instead of the original question. I welcome your views. Love in Christ. 🙂
 
As I see it, the two items that he struggles with is the meat of this. For example, a young man of my acquaintance decided that he didn’t believe in God because he disagreed with one thing… that thing was homosexuality. The young man was, in his words, “gay”. The usual disagreements with the Church are contraception and divorce. Since we don’t know what the two things the person is dealing with it seems that the subject has been exhausted.

Annie
I dont struggle with contraception and divorce. Im also celibate until I can find a woman that can say I do. Easier said than done in my opinion. And no my dear. Im not gay. I like women. I think your Aquaintance made an error in judgment giving up on God because of his sexual orientation. The Church makes provisions for this condition. I would invite him back. I think the Church is the best place a Homosexual could be, And has the most balanced teachings on this subject. Peace 🙂
 
Very interesting post my dear Sister in Christ. Yes, I am a real Catholic. I am a convert from a Reformed back ground, so in a sense you could say you are correct. If you doubt my loyalty to Catholicism, then I will direct you to research my threads and post I have started over the last 2 years. I would invite you to see the fights I have had with protestants and Adventist, over such important issues, as the Marian Dogmas, the Trinity, the real presence and the Papacy. Feel free. I have nothing to hide. the reason I will not post my disagreements, is that they will become the focus, instead of the original question. I welcome your views. Love in Christ. 🙂
That was wise. It is an important discussion, I think, for many of us. I cannot think of any teachings that I outright disagree with at the moment. But I have certainly struggled with a few in the past. I think the key is humility- which I think you have exemplified by not bringing up the disagreements and arguing that the Church is wrong. It shows restraint to keep that discussion separate from this one. Do not out yourself in a position where you will be publicly denying a teaching of the Church. Still, it would be wise, whatever your disagreements are, to learn more. You may think that you cannot be convinced, but are you open to the possibility that your wisdom is not as great as the wisdom of the Church? Are you open to the possibility that if you fully understood you would agree?

I think it is worth finding more information, anyway. Are you sure that you actually disagree with an actual teaching of the Church? It could be a non-issue. If you do not want to bring it up here, bring it up with your pastor. Read the relevant teachings- I always start with the Catechism and the Catholic Encyclopedia because they are both fairly complete and very well annotated and referenced. Ask in a different forum (I use three different Catholic facebook groups for a lot of my questions.) Ask someone you trust, or someone you think will know more. You may not change your mind, but perhaps you can sufficiently nuance your position that you would not call it a disagreement, but a lack of understanding.
 
Very interesting post my dear Sister in Christ. Yes, I am a real Catholic. I am a convert from a Reformed back ground, so in a sense you could say you are correct. If you doubt my loyalty to Catholicism, then I will direct you to research my threads and post I have started over the last 2 years. I would invite you to see the fights I have had with protestants and Adventist, over such important issues, as the Marian Dogmas, the Trinity, the real presence and the Papacy. Feel free. I have nothing to hide. the reason I will not post my disagreements, is that they will become the focus, instead of the original question. I welcome your views. Love in Christ. 🙂
I don’t know how much further this conversation can go on without focusing on the 2 things you disagree with. You know I disagree with this computer. I don’t think that I should have to plug it in for it to work. But I do have to do that little thing. Somethings are just right and we are wrong.

Annie

PS
There are hints in your notes that I think tells me what at least one of your disagreements lies.
 
Benedict:

No don’t leave the Church. As another poster noted, pray about it and reflect on it and even if you don’t come to fully understanding the 2 issues you are struggling with, as long as you pray about it and do not lets say publicy use it to cause division and schism in the Catholic Church, I say no problem. Unfortunately, some segments of the Catholic Church have an issue and turn to outright dissent and promotion of heresy which causes division and schism in the Church, all of which the Church Fathers strongly criticized.

I only use the examples above to make a point as I am not implying that the issues you are dealing with rival the ones that we see today where those Catholics who read the National Catholic Distorter [Fishwrap as Fr. Z calls it] are challenging such as women’s ordination, abortion, same-sex marriage, etc, etc.

Regards and God Bless
 
I only disagree with 2 views in this big thick book.
Rome holds the truth. I would not leave Rome. Or the Catholic Church. I will keep my mouth shut. I love the Holy Church. I love Rome. If Rome is false, then Chrsitianity is false. There is no in between. Catholicism is the truth. and the world knows this. 👍
Dear friend, I think you are dangerously close to contradicting yourself…

On another note, are you aware of the principle of double effect?
 
Dear friend, I think you are dangerously close to contradicting yourself…

On another note, are you aware of the principle of double effect?
I wrote the second knowing what it sounds like. Please let me clarify. I believe th Roman Catholic Church, IS the Church that Christ founded. I believe The magesterium is the final authority. I cannot in my own conscience submit myself to 2 of the items in the Catechism. I could lie, and say everything is good, But God would know, and I would. There are others who posted their disagreements. I do not happen to share theirs. I have my own. I dont have a college degree, so I sometimes word things that can seem confusing. I apoligize if this is the case. I also, cannot leave the Church. Its not an option. If I would leave that would most definity be apostacy, because I have full knowledge this is the Church Christ set up. I believe the question has pretty much been answered. We as Catholics sometimes DO have a different view than what the Magestirium teaches on some items of moratlity or social justice. I will remain in the Church and submit myself to the 99.9 percent of what is taught. The rest, I will leave up to the Lord to deal with me. I will not voice my opinions out loud to even my closest Catholic friends. I am not a rebel. I love the Unity of our faith. I can bear this to the grave to keep unity in the house hold of faith. Peace 🙂
 
I don’t know how much further this conversation can go on without focusing on the 2 things you disagree with. You know I disagree with this computer. I don’t think that I should have to plug it in for it to work. But I do have to do that little thing. Somethings are just right and we are wrong.

Annie

PS
There are hints in your notes that I think tells me what at least one of your disagreements lies.
My dear sister. If its eating you up that bad, then by all means. Take a guess. I will make you a deal. If you can guess in 3 trys, I will start a thread to debate. I will not however do it on this thread. Fair enough?🙂
 
This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thick book huh? I agree with everything in this book. With the exeption of 2 issues. Should I change my religious affiliation and leave the Church? One of the issues is moral, the other is socialogical. Your thoughts. Peace 🙂
I am still reading the Catechism. From what I have read, there are reputable Catholic theologians who say that the Church changes its moral teachings over time in response to changed in secular society, and that are reputable Catholic theologians who dispute that claim. In light of that, I guess I would ask if you disagree with the Catechism on something that seems major, or something of lesser importance? If it is a lesser teaching, it could be just that the Church has not caught up yet, if you believe the more progressive Catholic theologians. I suppose it also depends, in the same vein, on whether you believe that as our understanding deepens of the static moral code, that our behavior changes in relation to that code. The examples that I have seen cited are slavery, usury and marriage.
 
I am still reading the Catechism. From what I have read, there are reputable Catholic theologians who say that the Church changes its moral teachings over time in response to changed in secular society, and that are reputable Catholic theologians who dispute that claim. In light of that, I guess I would ask if you disagree with the Catechism on something that seems major, or something of lesser importance? If it is a lesser teaching, it could be just that the Church has not caught up yet, if you believe the more progressive Catholic theologians. I suppose it also depends, in the same vein, on whether you believe that as our understanding deepens of the static moral code, that our behavior changes in relation to that code. The examples that I have seen cited are slavery, usury and marriage.
One of them is a bigee, the other is quite minor in my opinion. I am not a progressive. I am very much a Libertarian with conservative leanings, just not on the ultra right. The Big issue is a Life issue. the smaller one, deals with something I personally think is just silly and a part of being a guy. And yet the Church goes nuts. I dont care much for the progressives either. the view I hold, on the big issue, is considered a conservative view in most other aspects of society. Peace 🙂
 
The Big issue is a Life issue. the smaller one, deals with something I personally think is just silly and a part of being a guy.
So should I disregard or minimize moral precepts which “I personally think are just silly and a part of being a gal?” Because I’ll tell you what is hard-wired into the psyches of most females: the constant, almost daily compulsion to betray secrets and reveal the faults and sins of others. It comes with the enmeshment into other people’s lives that is a biological part of being female – an outgrowth of the ability and drive for intimacy which are also crucial to the intuitive aspect of sustaining relationships in motherhood and marriage. Some females exercise much more control over these frequent compulsions than others do, however, proving that the so-called biological imperative to betray friendships and commit the mortal sin of detraction is far more conquerable than some other females might assume. The only difference between one group of females and the other is the degree of discipline, self-control, effort, prayer, spirituality which one group applies, vs. the other. (Proving that it really can be done. ;))

Number Two: Do you call yourself “not a real son” of your parents when you disrespect them as a grown man, when you disobeyed them as a child? Probably not. Because I doubt that they have considered you “not a real son” in those cases. You’re always a son to your parents, indelibly.

Your baptism gave you an indelible mark as well. You might be a disobedient son to your Mother, the Church, but that does not make you “not a real son.”

If you have siblings, and if as a child you told your siblings, “I don’t agree with Mom about the following two rules,” and a sibling under your influence decided that because he or she also “didn’t agree with Mom” about those two rules or any other two rules which he or she thought were “just silly,” you would be guilty of giving bad example to your sibling, which is called in the Church, scandal. So, if instead of saying to your brothers & sisters, "Don’t do what I do; I often disobey Mom and Dad; if I were a really good son, I would obey our parents in everything I do, or at least try to obey them – despite what I think is ‘just silly.’ " Hopefully, you would not turn to your siblings and say, “Hey, I don’t agree with these two house rules, but I’m still a son; so it must be fine if you have your private disagreements with other house rules, because after all, Mom & Dad will still consider you a son or daughter.” That also would be scandal.

So you have lots of siblings on this forum, benidict. Please try to remember that when you respond to questions about settled Church teaching (“Mom and Dad”). Okay? 🙂

Yes, you’re a “real Catholic.” We just can’t invent our own Catholicism and then tell others that they can do the same. 🙂
 
benidict
**
This is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Thick book huh? I agree with everything in this book. With the exeption of 2 issues. Should I change my religious affiliation and leave the Church? One of the issues is moral, the other is socialogical. Your thoughts. Peace**

As a true son of the Catholic Church, you should obey your mother even when you resent her judgment. As Elizabeth said, if you are a Catholic you should not be leading other Catholics astray by arguing against the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

That way lies the Protestant error of private interpretation and the belief that Catholic teachings cannot ever really be Catholic (Universal). :rolleyes:
 
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