2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[Faithdancer]

Although I personally subscribe to the view that a cult is just a religion with no political power. Of course (like virtually everyone else) I’m biased:shrug:

Then by your definition Opus Dei is not a cult, since Opus Dei does have political power and influence, both within the Church and in its membership among the ranks of the military, politics, corporations, etc. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[LiveCatholic]

Then by your definition Opus Dei is not a cult, since Opus Dei does have political power and influence, both within the Church and in its membership among the ranks of the military, politics, corporations, etc. Thanks for clearing that up.

If anyone says that Opus Dei is a cult, I’d HATE to see what this person thinks about the Benedictines or Dominicans.

I mean, if you think the so-called ‘indoctrination’ in Opus Dei is hard-core, try chanting from the same book for several hours a day, sometimes waking up in the middle of the night to do so. AND THEN there’s the robes, isolated fortress-like monasteries, and that whole ‘obedience’ thing… originally calling for the member to lie prostrate as a sign of humility.

If you think the physical mortification in Opus Dei is austere, the Dominicans have a long and proud history of corporal discipline that would make the far-fetched Opus Dei ‘monk’ of the Dan Brown ‘Da Vinci Code’ books writhe in fear.
*
Fact of the matter is, if AngryAtheist8 thinks Opus Dei is a cult, I would probably be quite offended by what she thinks of our a major religious orders.*

But what makes Opus Dei so different, that people attack it? Is it simply because its a comparatively new phenomenon in the Catholic world?

I think it has more to do with the fact that it combines the earnest striving of the early Christians trying to follow Jesus Christ with the monastic impulse for ‘a society apart.’

You look at the Opus Dei numerary, and can’t immediately recognize his devotion. To the critical secularist, the fact that he does not wear a habit or Roman collar is jarring, because he’s not instantly marking himself as a ‘religious weirdo’–you recognize his devotion by his pattern of life, or not at all.

Opus Dei members follow the initial impulse of the communal monks towards ‘economic activity’ in a new setting. Rather than engage in the rural or specialty trades of the monastery, Opus Dei members engage in professional, academic, or business activities. This seems like they’re ‘infiltrating’ industry, but they’re following a well-trodden Catholic tradition for devout people to seek God in the workplace and work-pursuits. An interreligious parallel might be the Hasidic Jews who adhere to certain professions, or Hindus caste system.

Finally, the communal life of the Opus Dei members, especially the numeraries, and the degree to which they cede some of their freedom is necessary to have any sort of a collective spirituality. A collective spirituality depends on ceding some degree of your spiritual individuality, in order to accept the collective beliefs and practices. To point to this as the key reason that Opus Dei is a ‘cult’ would be an indictment against ANY community of opinion or belief.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I was a child at the time.

So this cult kidnapped you and confined you in their compound? That has nothing to do with the story here. This is a story about an adult who freely joined a religious community and eventually left when she decided she didn’t want to be there anymore.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Perhaps those fairies used magic dust?

Heh

No, but they were stockpiling weapons.

 

[Faithdancer]

Heh

No, but they were stockpiling weapons.

Well *that’s * never a good sign. On the whole I’d say it’s a good thing that you are no longer hanging with them.

I hope that in time you are able to drop the “Angry” part of your user name. Ultimately hope you drop “Atheist” too, but one thing at a time!

 

[Rafaela]

I just wanted to add my (name removed by moderator)ut. I was near Opus Dei for four years. I got the chance to get to know the practices pretty well, or so I thought. I had a retreat last fall in one of their centers in Europe. I knew this center well and the members were like sisters to me, and I had a regular confessor there whom even answered to me to my emails after we had moved to another state. In the fall retreat I had a chat with a numerary and it ended up with me saying that despite they have been like a family members to me, I doubt Opus Dei is for me. I had to leave the retreat a day early because I did not feel welcome there in the center anymore. I lost all the contacts with them including a priest whom was really for a long time like a spiritual father and all contact with my godmother whom is a member. I feel really bad about being isolated of many of people I considered friends. I dont know if this has happened to others, how ever I have read that some of those whom actually were members have faced similar problems.

 

[Faithdancer]

I just wanted to add my (name removed by moderator)ut. I was near Opus Dei for four years. I got the chance to get to know the practices pretty well, or so I thought. I had a retreat last fall in one of their centers in Europe. I knew this center well and the members were like sisters to me, and I had a regular confessor there whom even answered to me to my emails after we had moved to another state. In the fall retreat I had a chat with a numerary and it ended up with me saying that despite they have been like a family members to me, I doubt Opus Dei is for me. I had to leave the retreat a day early because I did not feel welcome there in the center anymore. I lost all the contacts with them including a priest whom was really for a long time like a spiritual father and all contact with my godmother whom is a member. I feel really bad about being isolated of many of people I considered friends. I dont know if this has happened to others, how ever I have read that some of those whom actually were members have faced similar problems.

It seems as if you’ve left out some critical information, Rafaela. You say that you initiated the separation, right? You haven’t told us how you expressed this. Is it possible that other members in the center felt hurt and rejected? I’m not apologizing for them, because if you were completely calm and mature about the separation and they weren’t, then it seems as if they are not behaving charitably. But without more information, including hearing their side of the story, it’s hard for the outside observer to objectively comment on your experience.

Small groups in any field or walk of life can close ranks against someone who they feel has rejected them. This, of itself, doesn’t make them a cult, but it does show that they are human and prone to mistakes and hurt feelings and everything else that is human. I hope you find it in your heart to forgive and forget, and I hope in time that you and the center members are able to mend the damage. God bless!

 

[Rafaela]

I am not saying they are cult for goodness sake. I have had mostly very positive experience with them. Numerary asked me to talk about my vocation, and I said it has happened to me couple of times that when I am in adoration asking what I am doing in Opus Dei, I just feel a tremendous peace inside me and that God wants me to wait and see where He is leading me. This is what I in all honesty told her. As well as that I am very thankful of them taking my as almost like a family member when I was cut out of my family when becoming a Catholic. They were all like sisters to me. I would have in fact wished to stay as a cooperator, however, such an option was not offered to me. I felt really really bad about how this went. I was being honest and I was cast out because of it. What ever you say cannot make my recent personal experience any better I felt completely shunned out by the ‘family’ I had. I have indeed read later from odan -website that this seems to be an unspoken policy towards anyone whom has left, I only imagine how it is with members whom have left.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It seems as if you’ve left out some critical information, Rafaela. You say that you initiated the separation, right? You haven’t told us how you expressed this. Is it possible that other members in the center felt hurt and rejected? I’m not apologizing for them, because if you were completely calm and mature about the separation and they weren’t, then it seems as if they are not behaving charitably. But without more information, including hearing their side of the story, it’s hard for the outside observer to objectively comment on your experience.

Small groups in any field or walk of life can close ranks against someone who they feel has rejected them. This, of itself, doesn’t make them a cult, but it does show that they are human and prone to mistakes and hurt feelings and everything else that is human. I hope you find it in your heart to forgive and forget, and I hope in time that you and the center members are able to mend the damage. God bless!

Faithdancer has a point.
Nevertheless, its worth noting that shunning former members (or people who were on the verge of joining but changed their minds) is pretty standard cult behavior.

 

[Faithdancer]

I am not saying they are cult for goodness sake. I have had mostly very positive experience with them. Numerary asked me to talk about my vocation, and I said it has happened to me couple of times that when I am in adoration asking what I am doing in Opus Dei, I just feel a tremendous peace inside me and that God wants me to wait and see where He is leading me. This is what I in all honesty told her. As well as that I am very thankful of them taking my as almost like a family member when I was cut out of my family when becoming a Catholic. They were all like sisters to me. I would have in fact wished to stay as a cooperator, however, such an option was not offered to me. I felt really really bad about how this went. I was being honest and I was cast out because of it. What ever you say cannot make my recent personal experience any better I felt completely shunned out by the ‘family’ I had. I have indeed read later from odan -website that this seems to be an unspoken policy towards anyone whom has left, I only imagine how it is with members whom have left.

So Rafaela, in your first post you wrote that you had told them you doubted that Opus Dei is for you. That is quite a bit different from telling them that you just need more time in discernment. Did the conversation begin with you expressing a need for more time, and then the dialogue degenerated to the point where you said that you doubted Opus Dei was for you? Again, we weren’t there and don’t have the whole picture.

Though I empathize with your hurt it’s hard to imagine that there weren’t hurt feelings on the other side as well, if you were all as previously close as you say. It really sounds like a communication breakdown all around.

 

[Faithdancer]

Faithdancer has a point.
Nevertheless, its worth noting that shunning former members (or people who were on the verge of joining but changed their minds) is pretty standard cult behavior.

So are you calling Opus Dei a cult, or not? You use phrases like “pretty standard cult behavior” or “cult-like” but stop short of using the label outright. I’m not attacking you, Angry, just trying to find out if you have a definite position. If you’re not sure, that’s okay too.

I’ll state my position: Based on what I’ve experienced thus far, and the fact that Opus Dei is completely supported by the Magisterium, I do not believe that Opus Dei is a “cult.” And if tomorrow I suddenly decided to become an Anglican or a Pentecostal or even an atheist, my opinion wouldn’t change solely based on my faith persuasion or lack thereof.

 

[Faithdancer]

I should add that my perception that Opus Dei is not a “cult” is strengthened by Rafaela’s last post- ironically so, since she is currently estranged from the Prelature. However I applaud her honesty and charity, considering her current feelings, in not saying “yes, they are a cult,” when she doesn’t believe that’s the case.

 

[Rafaela]

I should add that my perception that Opus Dei is not a “cult” is strengthened by Rafaela’s last post- ironically so, since she is currently estranged from the Prelature.

I dont still quite get the whole picture myself either. I was wanting more time, but somehow it just got completely misunderstood or something. In the point where numerary told me she could not think of me as a supernumerary as I in her opinion was not the type got me actually very sad and I was still after that asking for chance to stay as a cooperator. Well go figure. If one does not have a God given vocation, then I guess there is nothing to do about it no matter how much you would want that to be the case. And no, I have still not have the lightning struck at me from the clear sky and tell me to do anything else either.

I get that its easy to go with the wave and call them all kinds of things, but a cult? I thought that would mean aggressive recruiting, not throwing away a chance to get someone to join. Actually I have heard of people whom have asked several times from the prelate to join without getting approval, but as I understand resigning would be considerably easier by not renewing one’s promise to stay in. While even after fidelity all that is needed for resigning is a written letter to the prelate. As I understand that is the way it works though I might not have the right terminology to use.

Given all that has happened I would still say that I really appreciate the time I had with them. Centers were like coming to a home to me and I really miss going to them, its like a part of my life is missing. Yes, faithdancer, it truly is an irony of faith. I still live by their daily schedules as much as I can though I have lost the chance to receive the spiritual direction from them that would be much needed.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

So are you calling Opus Dei a cult, or not? You use phrases like “pretty standard cult behavior” or “cult-like” but stop short of using the label outright. I’m not attacking you, Angry, just trying to find out if you have a definite position. If you’re not sure, that’s okay too.

I’ll state my position: Based on what I’ve experienced thus far, and the fact that Opus Dei is completely supported by the Magisterium, I do not believe that Opus Dei is a “cult.” And if tomorrow I suddenly decided to become an Anglican or a Pentecostal or even an atheist, my opinion wouldn’t change solely based on my faith persuasion or lack thereof.

I think Opus Dei sounds like a cult, although I don’t know enough to be sure:shrug:

 

[Faithdancer]

I think Opus Dei sounds like a cult, although I don’t know enough to be sure:shrug:

Fair enough, thanks

 

[Faithdancer]

I get that its easy to go with the wave and call them all kinds of things, but a cult? I thought that would mean aggressive recruiting, not throwing away a chance to get someone to join. Actually I have heard of people whom have asked several times from the prelate to join without getting approval, but as I understand resigning would be considerably easier by not renewing one’s promise to stay in. While even after fidelity all that is needed for resigning is a written letter to the prelate. As I understand that is the way it works though I might not have the right terminology to use.

Yes, I was told during my first meeting with a supernumerary that in our area at least, a member not living in a center, such as a supernumerary or associate, only needs to make an annual phone call for the renewal of promise. If one doesn’t place that call, one is simply dropped from membership, and nobody is going to contact you, as a former member. Definitely doesn’t sound cult-ish.

Anyway God bless you for keeping your faith, Rafaela- Pax et Bonum!

 

[LovePatience]

I think Opus Dei sounds like a cult, although I don’t know enough to be sure:shrug:

There is an ongoing conflict between life in this world versus life in the Kingdom of God. Telling people to accept their situation as a Cross out of love for God rather than striving to do something about it or helping them to something about it isn’t automatically what Christ would have wanted. On one hand, he willingly stayed a virgin. On the other hand, when the Cross came, he first asked God if it could be taken away. When the answer was no, he bore it.

This conflict is apparent in many Catholic activities. Mother Teresa used to reuse unsterilized needles run under cold water until they became blunt. When offered more needles, the volunteers initially refused. Later, they did begin using sterilized needles. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=337479 secularhumanism.org/library/fi/shields_18_1.html Asked of Mother Teresa: “Do you teach the poor to endure their lot?” She replied: “I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people.” Christopher Hitchens says: “Bear in mind that Mother Teresa’s global income is more than enough to outfit several first class clinics in Bengal. The decision not to do so… is a deliberate one. The point is not the honest relief of suffering, but the promulgation of a cult based on death and suffering and subjection.”Then Hitchens notes that Mother Teresa “has checked into some of the finest and costliest clinics and hospitals in the West during her bouts with heart trouble and old age.” population-security.org/swom-96-09.htm Of course Mother Teresa did more for the poor than Hitchens. If she hadn’t started the Missionaries of Charity, he couldn’t have criticized it and no one could have improved upon it.]

Slavery in Catholic countries took a longer time to end than in other Christian countries because Catholics believed that the most important thing was to bear one’s cross and suffering for Christ. Thus, they felt less obligated to help slaves get free and more to make sure they were living holy lives in the slave state. William Wilberforce was a Christian who saw the poor state of the slaves and sought to free them, ending the slave trade throughout the British Empire. On the other hand, St. Peter Claver saw the poor state of the slaves and sought to cathechize and baptize them although he called himself a “slave of slaves.”

Opus Dei and people associated with the order sometimes have the same attitude of acceptance of the suffering of others, seeing encouraging someone to aim for a higher state than they previously have as a greater evil than a person not living up to their potential. “See Santorum: All Students Shouldn’t Be Pushed to Go to College” blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/01/07/santorum-all-students-shouldnt-be-pushed-to-go-to-college/ In our society, with so many intelligent people getting pregnant in single parent homes or in jail and never going to college, it is not “elite snobbery” to say that more people should be going to college. It isn’t for everyone but there are many people who should go who aren’t going. There are Harvard professors who were former drug dealers, partially due to family bad example. biography.jrank.org/pages/2961/Fryer-Roland-G.html Santorum is associated with Opus Dei.

In the context of Catholicism and obedience, it is considered obedience to Jesus to obey a spiritual director. From St. Faustina’s Diary,

#1760 My daughter, I want to teach you about spiritual warfare. Never trust in yourself, but abandon yourself totally to My will. In desolation, darkness and various doubts, have recourse to Me and to your spiritual director. He will always answer you in My name.

Thus, the problem here seems to be not related to being a cult or a non-cult, but an issue that when people are encouraged to accept their state in life and submit in obedience to spiritual director, that someone can be encouraged to remain in slave like conditions without bettering themselves when they have the opportunity AND might think that this is something that Christ wants them to do. Legally, it is their choice. The law won’t buy the excuse that “Christ” told you to do something. Morally, it doesn’t seem loving to limit a person’s potential, and it does seem that this happens more often that in should. Its not only people like this woman who have brought up problems with this, but also former spiritual directors of Opus Dei. odan.org/tw_spirit_of_opus_dei_harms_people.htm

 

[beehumble]

Slavery in Catholic countries took a longer time to end than in other Christian countries because Catholics believed that the most important thing was to bear one’s cross and suffering for Christ. … William Wilberforce was a Christian who saw the poor state of the slaves and sought to free them, ending the slave trade throughout the British Empire.

uh huh. The Christian not Catholic US was one of the last modern western nations with slaves - so the first assertion is false.

And then we have the sanctimonious British ending the slave trade while keeping WHOLE nations in slavery to the crown (watch Gandhi sometime - and note especially how the holy Brits didn’t let the Indians make their own salt from the sea, to keep them in bondage).
So the second assertion is false.

As for the OP case, I don’t know enough to comment except to say to remember that this is the time of the Great Apostasy, and thus a time of Christian and especially Catholic hatred throughout society’s falling institutions.

God bless you.

 

[LovePatience]

uh huh. The Christian not Catholic US was one of the last modern western nations with slaves - so the first assertion is false.

The Catholic Church in the United States largely supported the slave trade - in opposition to Rome it is true.

From wikipedia:

In In Supremo Apostolatus, Pope Gregory XVI admonished and adjured “all believers in Christ, of whatsoever condition, that no one hereafter may dare unjustly to molest Indians, Blacks, or other men of this sort;…or to reduce them to slavery…”. Catholic bishops in the Southern U.S. focused on the word “unjustly”. They argued that the Pope did not condemn slavery if the slaves had been captured justly—that is, they were either criminals or prisoners of war. The bishops determined that this prohibition did not apply to slavery in the U.S.[citation needed]

Answering the charge that Catholics were widely supporting the abolitionist movement, Bishop England noted that Gregory XVI was condemning only the slave trade and not slavery itself, especially as it existed in the United States. To prove his opinion, England had In Supremo translated and published in his diocesan newspaper, The United States Catholic Miscellany, and even went so far as to write a series of 18 extensive letters to John Forsyth, the Secretary of State under President Martin Van Buren, to explain how he and most of the other American bishops interpreted In Supremo Apostolatus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery#United_States

And here is the leading Opus Dei priest of the United States today who says the Confederate war should never have even been fought! "H. W. Crocker III describes “why the South was right.” catholicity.com/mccloskey/shadesofgray.html Fr. McCloskey uses the Catholic principle of subsidiarity to argue that the Civil War should have never happened.

This all sounds familiar to those who believe in the natural law principle of subsidiarity, according to which “a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to co-ordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 1883)

This may explain why the official newspaper of the Vatican editorialized on behalf of the South during the war, and Pope Pius IX sent a hand-woven Crown of Thorns to Jefferson Davis, ex-president of the Confederacy, as he languished in prison after the War. Crocker puts it this way, “The Church in other words, was the natural ally of feudalism, federalism (or states’ rights) and conservatism. Given a choice between a religiously ambiguous nationalist (Lincoln) and a Catholic-educated defender of states’ rights (Jefferson Davis), it was no contest for the Pope.”

It seems that this priest, who converted Brownback and is recommended by Santorum, would argue that the Vatican was on the side of the Confederates in the Civil War.

And then we have the sanctimonious British ending the slave trade while keeping WHOLE nations in slavery to the crown (watch Gandhi sometime - and note especially how the holy Brits didn’t let the Indians make their own salt from the sea, to keep them in bondage).
So the second assertion is false.

Colonialism and slavery aren’t the same thing. That doesn’t justify colonialism, but it is different. The United States with the Boston tea party was colonized, but the tea party were not chattel.

 

[beehumble]

The south at the time you mentioned was very very anti-Catholic and did not use any Catholics’ opinions to support slavery. They kept it because of greed. It was profitable to the plantation owners, who were also the political class and thus made sure to enshrine it in their state laws - these men were not Catholics and in fact when the KKK was formed by some of these same men, they preyed on Catholics. (And there have always been ‘rebel’ bishops or groups of bishops and individual priests who oppose Church teaching emanating from Rome - or have opinions contrary to the Church, but the Vatican is the one that counts.)

Slavery by any other name is still slavery. (why didn’t the Brits just leave India once it was clear the Indians wanted them too? - they wanted the huge profits they were able to steal from India to flow to themselves. They kept the Indian nation in bondage for British profit, by force of arms, which is how slavery operates.)

The US was different than India because it was founded by the British. (However note that after the Rev war the Brits had plans to basically turn the US citizens into serfs to a certain degree, by awarding the lands to top lords of the empire and making the colonials work that land, the profits going to the lords.)

Your points do not stand. BTW, this is off topic and we should stop posting on this.

God bless you.