2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[Busy_bee]

That’s where the bitterness comes from when people decide to sue or express anger. They gave up a significant part of their life or resources for something bogus, and they can’t get it back. For what should a man give in exchange for his life? Is there any other Catholic organization that has a network, ODAN, with an aim to “provide information, outreach and support to those adversely impacted by the cult.” In many ways, Opus Dei misrepresents itself so it less of a truly informed choice; if it was a truly informed decision, people would not feel cheated.

How would you feel if you had been tricked out of something valuable to you?

I don’t think Opus Dei misrepresents itself. I’m saying the benefits and profits or merits of such an organisation cannot be physical. That’s why I asked what kept the others going?
If you begin any vocation with a spiritual goal in mind and later you start hoping to see the reward physically, you have already lost your way. Why? Because when you don’t see what you hope to see physically then you start feeling bitter and cheated. Opus Dei members I know do not mince words about work, suffering. Yes, suffering, not easy-going life. You see them smile, but they don’t hesitate to tell you that they will smile even through tears and pain.
I don’t know, it’s like a religious complaining that he is made to work too much and that he has been lied to so he’s leaving and he wants his benefits paid. It is so strange. You have not been working for them, you have been working for God through their channel, in their way. If you hate their way, then how did you end up there? You did not discern your vocation properly then.
A vocation is the reason you are alive sort of. It’s not a job or an occupation you change when the going gets tough. I think that anyone who calls Opus Dei members slave masters is wrong to say so. I don’t hear anyone calling those monks and nuns slaves who live strictly in conditions I wouldn’t even dream of being in. It is a vocation. That means, you enter knowing that this is what you ought to do with your life.
No one works meaninglessly. The work in Opus Dei is offered up as prayer, and they still pray a lot, and they still do apostolate. They are lay people working their butts off and praying for the church and bringing others to the church. How is any of that wrong? And instead of understanding, we are calling them names!
Are there no people who have left the priesthood or the religious life? Did they say the church is a slave master? Opus Dei is a prelature of the catholic church. They are not slave masters. They are serving the church in the way ti needs to be served right now, and who does the church serve? God. They are servants of God period.
I’m sorry if anyone left feeling bitter. I think the person has gained more than he/she thinks they’ve lost. Our Lord Jesus worked tirelessly, even falling asleep with exhaustion. So tired was he that he didn’t even notice they were in the middle of a storm!
Suffering is part and parcel of the christian way. That Opus Dei’s former members are complaining of suffering is a good sign to me.
Don’t get me wrong- I’m not saying people should be worked to death. I’m saying maybe your American culture is what makes this story look so apalling to you. People don’t choose to work to the point of exhaustion just to get a kick out of it. They work hard because there is a lot to be done and too few people. That’s where the suffering part enters. So, lets pray that God will send more men for the Work of God. You can imagine how hard they must be working for them to be in Nigeria! These people have left their homes, comforts, snow and all to be in tropical Africa. They have had to learn other languages so that I can know that God loves me and has a plan for me. So they work more than 8 hours? Okay, but the fruits of their sacrifice is more souls to love God. Now that is a treasure that cannot be quantified by earthly reasoning. One soul brought to God is worth more than all the wealth of the world put together, but if one cannot understand this, then he is certain to undergo disillusionment if he joins Opus Dei.
I heard they are going to be in Indonesia on the Holy Father’s request. That means few people spread over an even wider area, more work. So you see, they are needed and they work tremendously well!

 

[jaaraf]

For the record, I know an assistant numerary/numerary assistant in her early twenties who has a facebook account and immediately answers my private messages the following day when I ask for prayers. Would one honestly think a slave would have a facebook account with several hundred friends? The work of an assistant numerary is likened to that of the mother of a large and poor family. If they weren’t assistant numeraries, they would be working in service related professions.

 

[jaaraf]

To further illustrate the point that assistant numeraries are not slave-driven:
Just this Sunday, we watched a movie in the living room of the house where the assistant numeraries lived. We had popcorn and invited some of them to join us in the fun, which a few of them did. I don’t think someone being overworked would be invited to watch a movie and relax on a Sunday.

 

[Busy_bee]

Aha! I knew it! Nobody following Jesus closely will feel like a slave. Thanks Jaaraf.

 

[brianfinnerty]

FYI, the trial in France ended with a complete exoneration of Opus Dei and the school.

See opusdei.us/art.php?p=46221

(Full disclosure: I work in the press office of Opus Dei.)

 

[Busy_bee]

Yes, someone gave us that info. However another discussion started about whether Opus Dei members are overworked or not.

 

[Julia_Mae]

1. two confirmed miracles attributed to their Intercession
2. A Cause for Canonization generally can only begin 5 years after the death of the person, it can be waivered by the Holy Father, .

I think it was two years for Saint Francis and I think the Pope only waited that long to get the Church built over him.

And let’s not be disingenuous about Opus Dei, love 'em or hate 'em they are secretive; it’s right in their rules. But I thought I read this case was resolved and the complainant lost? Or is this case new?

 

[Julia_Mae]

I don’t think Opus Dei misrepresents itself. I’m saying the benefits and profits or merits of such an organisation cannot be physical. That’s why I asked what kept the others going?!

So you are part of Opus Dei, then?

 

[Busy_bee]

So you are part of Opus Dei, then?

If I can understand them, then I don’t think they misrepresent themselves. Simple

 

[Julia_Mae]

If I can understand them, then I don’t think they misrepresent themselves. Simple

So you are part of Opus Dei, then. I understand the non sequitor, I was just talking to someone else about them. I referred to this from their Statutes:

This collective humility leads our people to live the life which they consecrate to God with the same discretion which is most suited to the desired fruitfulness of the apostolate. **The lack of this discretion can constitute a grave obstacle to exercising apostolic work or create some difficulty in the environment of one’s natural family **or in the exercise of their office or profession. Thus the Numerary and Supernumerary members should know they are to live a prudent silence regarding the names of other members; and that they are never to reveal to anyone that they themselves belong to Opus Dei, not even to spread the Institute, without express permission from their local director. This discretion especially binds those who are newly accepted in the Institute and also to those who, for whatever reason, have left the Institute. The Institute and some of its members, however, need to be known, because all our apostolic works develop and are carried out within the bounds of civil law and likewise, with the same strength of soul, each one of us, altogether shuns secrecy and clandestine activity, for the only thing which moves us to maintain this discretion is humility and a deeper and more fruitful apostolic efficacy.

So how do we trust an organization that has, as part of it’s statutes, not to tell anyone you are part of it because it can cause problems with your “natural family?”

 

[Busy_bee]

So you are part of Opus Dei, then. I understand the non sequitor, I was just talking to someone else about them. I referred to this from their Statutes:

So how do we trust an organization that has, as part of it’s statutes, not to tell anyone you are part of it because it can cause problems with your “natural family?”

Whether I am part of Opus Dei or not depends on what part means. As for the excerpt, I have never seen it before, though reading it now, I could say it sounds typical. Some members have posted on this thread, but now i’m guessing we don’t know who they are really, so they haven’t broken their statutes.

I’m not sure I am the one you should engage in a discussion this deep about Opus Dei as I don’t even know this. However, I understand them, and nothing that has been said so far has shocked me or changed my opinion of them.

 

[Busy_bee]

So how do we trust an organization that has, as part of it’s statutes, not to tell anyone you are part of it because it can cause problems with your “natural family?”

It doesn’t say though that No one is to be told. It says that identities should not be revealed without express permission from the local director. The question is, why is permission needed?
I can see why. The idea is to live naturally, and not look or feel special or to be singled out because you are in Opus Dei. Also, I can imagine that some people would not want it known for personal reasons. One has to respect their privacy. They are simply lay people.

 

[JReducation]

So you are part of Opus Dei, then. I understand the non sequitor, I was just talking to someone else about them. I referred to this from their Statutes:

So how do we trust an organization that has, as part of it’s statutes, not to tell anyone you are part of it because it can cause problems with your “natural family?”

I’m disappointed that you’re bringing this up again. I was the person whom you asked and I gave you the honest answer of what that passage means.

I repeat it again for the benefit of those who did not see the PM that I sent to Julia Mae. St. Jose Maria Escriva was a man of his time. At the time when these statutes were written, every secular institute had the same regulation, not just Opus Dei.

The reason was simple.

St. Jose Maria and other founders of secular institutes believed the the greatest form of humility was anonymity.

In addition, the Church discouraged members of secular institutes, even those who made vows, to identify themselves in public or identify their confreres. The purpose of a secular institute is to permeate the secular world with the Gospel, while doing the normal things that every secular person does, even if at the end of the day you go back to a community house where you share prayers, meals, recreation and other activities.

The idea behind protecting the natural family arose out of a concern that people would not understand how a secular Catholic could be consecrated and be a parent and a spouse. People became confused and believed that you were married to a nun or that your father wa a monk or some such thing.

At the time that Opus Dei was founded, it was one of many secular institutes. The most famous one is the Daughters of Charity founded by St. Vincent de Paul. That’s right, they are not sisters or religious. They are a secular society of charity. For that reason they never make perpetual vows, go through a novitiate, live in convents or have a mother superior.

Other secular institutes were less obvious and many were completely anonymous with strict rules about discretion in order to permeate the secular world without calling unnecessary attraction to themselves or their families.

As time went by, the Church saw the need to do something about these secular institutes. At first it had tried to “nunnyfy” the Daughters of Charity by assigning them the title “Sister” and forcing a habit on them, that St. Vincent did not want and St. Louise de Marillac never wore. That did not work as expected.

Then they tried with Opus Dei by making it a personal prelature of the Holy Father. The only problem with that model is that you can make every secular institute a personal prelature of the pope. Finally, in 1983, Bl. John Paul came up with the idea of societies of apostolic life. These are secular institutes that can include secular priests and consecrated members. One of the first of these was SOLT and Schoenstatt.

As I told Julia, these rules of discretion are becoming less and less necessary with the explosion of married deacons. The laity is used to a clergyman with a wife and kids. They may not be so confused with a professed or committed member of secular institute with a wife and family working in a bank. Deacons work in banks, why not Opus Dei, SOLTs, and others.

What I failed to tell Julia is that even though these rules were written before the 20th century and into the early part of the 20th century, they cannot be changed on a whim. Canon Law does not allow that. There has to be a constitutional chapter to change the statutes. The only person who can grant permission for such a chapter is the pope. Even if you change the statutes, they must be submitted to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life for approval. The approve the change in the name of the Holy Father.

In the case of Opus Dei, even the Sacred Congregation has not authority. Opus Dei is a PERSONAL prelature of the Holy Father. These statutes the St. Jose Maria wrote decades ago can only be changed if Pope Benedict decides that they are no longer needed or not good for Opus Dei. The membership of Opus Dei has no voice in the matter. They can’t even vote on this until the pope says so.

I know them well. I attended their unviersity in Rome. They have one of the finest Pontifical Schools of Theology in the Eternal City., Sanctae Crucis (Holy Cross), run by the priests of Opus Dei, known as the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross. Any seminarian, priest or brother can get a degree in theology there. It’s very orthodox and it’s not a cloak and dagger operation. Many of the lay member of Opus Dei run the hostels where the students live and many of the offices and departments are the university. They are very kind and very committed people. They are also very very orthodox Catholics.

en.pusc.it/info/profilo-storico

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I have a very silly question.

From Vatican I to Vatican II, fraternal religious orders such as Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmelites and a few others, that were not founded as orders of priests, but always had priests among their brothers, were suddenly turned into clerical orders.

This meant that if a man possesed average to above average intelligence, he was tracked for ordination after making vows in a religious order that did not require ordination. But this was done, because the laity needed priests.

Those men who had less than average intelligence were also admitted to these orders. They made the same vows, went through the same number of years of formation, however, men like St. Francis of Assisi would be unable to do any of the following, because he was not a priest:

1. Could not eat at the same table with the ordained brothers
2. Could not pray in the same chapel as the ordained brothers
3. Could not recreate in the same community room as the ordained brothers
4. Could not speak to any ordained brother or any brother studying to be priest unless spoken to first
5. Could not get university degrees

These men were member of these orders but were stripped of the rights that the founders had given them.

These men also had to wake up before everyone else to make breakfast. After breakfast, they did dishes. After dishes they cleaned house, did laundry, prepared meals, kept the grounds, attended the sacristy, begged for the community, cleaned the parish church and were totally ignored by their ordained brothers and the laity who met them. They were JUST brothers.

They never had a day off or vacation time. They did not get paid for their work. Yes, the ordained were allowed to have money in their pocket and were often given exclusive use of a car, because they needed it for parish work.

They signed a binding contract, the night before they made vows, that if they left the order, they owed the order nothing and it owed them nothing. If they left, they left with no place to go, no money in their pocket and no education.

It took Vatican II to issue Perfectae Caritatis which demanded that the religious orders go back to the charism and spirit of their founders. Later, in 1983, Canon Law demanded that all professed members of the community have equal rights and duties. After that, Pope John Paul issued Vita Consacrata in which he lays out that the ordained religious have no special claim on privileges rising out of their ordination. They have the same place as the non ordained religious in their community. Those religious who cook, clean, and do laundry, do so because this is their gift to the community, not because they have to do so. Today, these non ordained brothers are physicians, theologians, teachers, missionaries, cooks, electricians, religious superiors and parish administrators.

I remember the stories of how the ordained would get up from the table, leaving their dishes for these brothers to pick up and how they would place their shoes outside their door for these brothers to shine and how these brothers washed the cars assigned to the ordained.

These men never sued, because they were told that this was their vocation and that it was a noble vocation to serve the ordained, freeing them to go out to do ministry, as if the non ordained could not do ministry. Duh! What were sisters doing for centuries or teaching brothers? I’m not denying that service is a noble vocation, be it manual labor or preaching. But I’m thinking that no one in the media or among the laity ever expressed concern.

I can tell you that among Franciscans, the non ordained brother saints outnumber the ordained brother saints 2 to 1. These were holy men who worked hard, never got a thank you, not even on their birthday. Those who left, never got more than $50 to tie them over for a few days. Today it may be about $500.00.

My question is very simple. If this could be a very noble vocation for these brothers, could this not have been the case for many of these people who joined institutes like Opus Dei and other secular institutes? These brothers entered and remained of their own free will. No one forced them to make final vows. The same is true for secular institutes.

This is goofy and interesting at the same time.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

 

[Busy_bee]

I have a very silly question.

From Vatican I to Vatican II, fraternal religious orders such as Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmelites and a few others, that were not founded as orders of priests, but always had priests among their brothers, were suddenly turned into clerical orders.

This meant that if a man possesed average to above average intelligence, he was tracked for ordination after making vows in a religious order that did not require ordination. But this was done, because the laity needed priests.

Those men who had less than average intelligence were also admitted to these orders. They made the same vows, went through the same number of years of formation, however, men like St. Francis of Assisi would be unable to do any of the following, because he was not a priest:

1. Could not eat at the same table with the ordained brothers
2. Could not pray in the same chapel as the ordained brothers
3. Could not recreate in the same community room as the ordained brothers
4. Could not speak to any ordained brother or any brother studying to be priest unless spoken to first
5. Could not get university degrees

These men were member of these orders but were stripped of the rights that the founders had given them.

These men also had to wake up before everyone else to make breakfast. After breakfast, they did dishes. After dishes they cleaned house, did laundry, prepared meals, kept the grounds, attended the sacristy, begged for the community, cleaned the parish church and were totally ignored by their ordained brothers and the laity who met them. They were JUST brothers.

They never had a day off or vacation time. They did not get paid for their work. Yes, the ordained were allowed to have money in their pocket and were often given exclusive use of a car, because they needed it for parish work.

They signed a binding contract, the night before they made vows, that if they left the order, they owed the order nothing and it owed them nothing. If they left, they left with no place to go, no money in their pocket and no education.

It took Vatican II to issue Perfectae Caritatis which demanded that the religious orders go back to the charism and spirit of their founders. Later, in 1983, Canon Law demanded that all professed members of the community have equal rights and duties. After that, Pope John Paul issued Vita Consacrata in which he lays out that the ordained religious have no special claim on privileges rising out of their ordination. They have the same place as the non ordained religious in their community. Those religious who cook, clean, and do laundry, do so because this is their gift to the community, not because they have to do so. Today, these non ordained brothers are physicians, theologians, teachers, missionaries, cooks, electricians, religious superiors and parish administrators.

I remember the stories of how the ordained would get up from the table, leaving their dishes for these brothers to pick up and how they would place their shoes outside their door for these brothers to shine and how these brothers washed the cars assigned to the ordained.

These men never sued, because they were told that this was their vocation and that it was a noble vocation to serve the ordained, freeing them to go out to do ministry, as if the non ordained could not do ministry. Duh! What were sisters doing for centuries or teaching brothers? I’m not denying that service is a noble vocation, be it manual labor or preaching. But I’m thinking that no one in the media or among the laity ever expressed concern.

I can tell you that among Franciscans, the non ordained brother saints outnumber the ordained brother saints 2 to 1. These were holy men who worked hard, never got a thank you, not even on their birthday. Those who left, never got more than $50 to tie them over for a few days. Today it may be about $500.00.

My question is very simple. If this could be a very noble vocation for these brothers, could this not have been the case for many of these people who joined institutes like Opus Dei and other secular institutes? These brothers entered and remained of their own free will. No one forced them to make final vows. The same is true for secular institutes.

This is goofy and interesting at the same time.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF

As always, you have posted and stated your points clearly. It may be a silly question to others, but not to me. I did ask it, but not as clearly or as interestingly as you have.

Thank you for explaining that statute to us.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m not sure I am the one you should engage in a discussion this deep about Opus Dei as I don’t even know this. However, I understand them, and nothing that has been said so far has shocked me or changed my opinion of them.

I’m sorry, I certainly wasn’t trying to shock you or change your mind. I assumed, being as both the Statutes and Constitutions are o now online, that all Opus Dei members would have read them.

This isn’t deep in Opus Dei, either. The whole of the documents are shot through with this kind of admonition. It’s like prohibiting priests of Opus Dei from revealing to Associate Priests, that is, Diocesan Priests of the Holy Cross, that they even are priests.

Or having “Centers” with Oratories in them where Masses are said without the local Diocesan Bishop even being aware they exist.

When we speak of sanctifying your whole life to God, to service to Christ, I am as much on board as anyone, believe me. But this is a pretty unusual set of rules and regs, I think. There are just other ways of doing this than hiding out and selling people ideas when they don’t even know what your intent is. Look, you’re an anonymous person on a message board, you are vigorously defending something you believe in, something you haven’t actually thoroughly studied and you aren’t supposed to say you belong to it?

Because it might upset your family? I don’t get it. It isn’t just that some members of a family might be upset you are changing somehow, the Statutes were written anticipating it.

Opus Dei says the Numeraries and Supernumeraries are supposed to model themselves after the “hidden life of Jesus in Nazareth.”

Well it was hidden after all! So all we have to model ourselves in is the life our Lord purposely made known to us, the one where He said, “Don’t hide your l Light under a basket.”

 

[Julia_Mae]

It doesn’t say though that No one is to be told. It says that identities should not be revealed without express permission from the local director. The question is, why is permission needed?
I can see why. The idea is to live naturally, and not look or feel special or to be singled out because you are in Opus Dei. Also, I can imagine that some people would not want it known for personal reasons. One has to respect their privacy. They are simply lay people.

I don’t understand. If you are a Third Order member, for instance, you still live just as always but with the expression of your charism. I mean, if you are Third Order of Discalced Carmelites you are not going barefoot everywhere! What lay people in Catholic associations or Orders do you know who are singled out or act like they are special? Well, Knights of Columbus like to draw attention to themselves, I guess, but boys do like motorcycles!

I don’t see what the deal is. If no one can tell an Opus Dei member in their work from anyone else, what’s the point of secrecy? The SFO isn’t a secret, 3rd Order Dominicans aren’t secret, Legion of Mary - not secret.

I’m quite happy for you to have found something you feel strongly called to and am in no way trying to dissuade you, it just makes no sense to me. Especially because there is a long history of the kinds of accusations made that are the topic of this thread. These kinds of things can happen when people are bound to secrecy instead of openness.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’m disappointed that you’re bringing this up again. I was the person whom you asked and I gave you the honest answer of what that passage means.

Really? I’m even more disappointed you would refer to our private conversation into a public thread.

 

[Julia_Mae]

My question is very simple. If this could be a very noble vocation for these brothers, could this not have been the case for many of these people who joined institutes like Opus Dei and other secular institutes?

I’m sure it is. But it’s also the case that throughout Opus Dei’s history there have been accusations of cultlike behaviors. ODAN was started by a woman who’s daughter had been ordered by her Opus Dei handlers to break all contact with her family. They had to hire a deprogrammer.

This article in America Magazine from 1995 is a thorough look at what was going on, and these kinds of stories surface all over on a steady basis. There’s someone right here in the thread who is trying to be heard.

The OFM isn’t a secret society. You aren’t being a priest of OFM while running a radio station and telling no one you are a religious priest. You weren’t told not to tell your own family you were in formation. Even cloistered nuns get to have family witnesses at final vows. Fidelity don’t even get to tell anyone else they are in Opus Dei much less that they have completed five years of formation and are making a lifetime commitment to celibacy and Opus Dei.

Friaries are on the map. You might not encourage drop-in lay visitors, but you aren’t a secret. Opus Dei centers exist in Dioceses without Bishops even having a clue they are there. Your Constitutions are online because Franciscans of all stripes put them there. In the local language. Opus Dei has never published their Statutes and Constitutions or translated them except into Spanish.

OFM and Opus Dei have little in common except that even a religious brother can be a cooperator. I mean, you can be an atheist and be a cooperator.

 

[Busy_bee]

I’m sorry, I certainly wasn’t trying to shock you or change your mind. I assumed, being as both the Statutes and Constitutions are o now online, that all Opus Dei members would have read them.