2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[Faithdancer]

To expect everyone who is a part of Opus Dei to strive for saintliness, to nurture and support rather than harm others, is certainly a goal of Opus Dei. However, Opus Dei members are human beings and are therefore fallible, and sin happens. …

To say that “Opus Dei is a cult” on the basis of the Magdalene Laundries story, or to imply that Opus Dei members are evil or brainwashed and to compare Opus Dei to the Nazis, even tangentially, is absurd.

Having attended an Evening of Recollection, I can declare with certainty that there was nothing secretive whatsoever about it. Anyone can attend, there is no one taking your name down, you can leave after the event (which is a very pious religious observance and a talk on Scripture and the writings of Saint Josemaria), and you can return or not. Where is the secrecy?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You say you were a member of a cult, but you were never a member of Opus Dei, correct? But are you nevertheless calling Opus Dei a cult? Just trying to clarify…

I was never a member of Opus Dei.
But it does remind me of a cult.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

To expect everyone who is a part of Opus Dei to strive for saintliness, to nurture and support rather than harm others, is certainly a goal of Opus Dei. However, Opus Dei members are human beings and are therefore fallible, and sin happens. …

To say that “Opus Dei is a cult” on the basis of the Magdalene Laundries story, or to imply that Opus Dei members are evil or brainwashed and to compare Opus Dei to the Nazis, even tangentially, is absurd.

Having attended an Evening of Recollection, I can declare with certainty that there was nothing secretive whatsoever about it. Anyone can attend, there is no one taking your name down, you can leave after the event (which is a very pious religious observance and a talk on Scripture and the writings of Saint Josemaria), and you can return or not. Where is the secrecy?

So what?
I did neither of those things.

 

[Faithdancer]

I had never heard of Church Universal and Triumphant before reading this thread, but here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on the group: “The church’s theology is a syncretistic belief system, including elements of Buddhism, Christianity, esoteric mysticism, the paranormal and alchemy, with a belief in angels, elves, fairies, and other beings it calls elementals (or spirits of nature). It centers on communications supposedly received from Ascended Masters through the Holy Spirit.”

 

[Faithdancer]

So what?
I did neither of those things.

Neither of what things…?
If you are referring to my mention of the Nazis, it was you who brought up the Holocaust. Now why would you choose such an extreme example?
And if you aren’t labeling Opus Dei as a cult, why do you directly compare it with the group that you say you were forced, as a child, to participate in?

 

[Faithdancer]

It is almost comical. Secretive practices? This is why there is a book written about the practices of Opus Day which the article quotes?

People just love a conspiracy theory, even when there isn’t a conspiracy and the theory has been proven wrong.

As far as the sainthood of Josemaria, it really doesn’t matter because most theologians agree that the cannonization of a Saint is infallible which means that Josemaria is a Saint regardless of if you think he should be or not (and this means that his writings and teachings are worth emulating to include Opus Dei).

Here is a link to the canonization process.

God Bless.

Yes, and people love a conspiracy theory even more when it’s incorporated into a feature film that is based on a book of fiction, stars Tom Hanks and has a story line that feeds into some non-Catholics’ already-distorted view of the Church!

Now why would the original press release even mention Dan Brown, when his books are fiction and completely irrelevant to reality? It’s all about readership numbers!

 

[Havard]

But since were being frank here, I don’t think a faithful member of Catholic Church is capable of judging the actions of the Church objectively.

First off, I just want to clarify that: Bad men in the Church =/= the Church.

Second, you are probably right that some of the more emotional-types are going to be clouded by bias, but you would be foolish to assert that all are simply by virtue of being Catholic. Going by statistics alone, it’ll be the case that some clergy somewhere are up to no good. They are humans, after all.

But the question is whether these particular clergymen transgressed. As with any other accused, I say apply the same burden of proof and evidentiary standard to them as you would with any other defendant. So I say simply to give them a fair trial, and in a court of justice, not public opinion.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I didn’t join willing:shrug:
My parents became members when I was a child, and left the C.U.T. when I was still a pre-teen.

But since were being frank here, I don’t think a faithful member of Catholic Church is capable of judging the actions of the Church objectively.

After all, a faithful Catholic is required to many things (the Death and Resurrection of Christ, the Assumption of Mary, etc.).

Sorry, that should have been ‘required believe many things.’

My bad

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I had never heard of Church Universal and Triumphant before reading this thread, but here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on the group: “The church’s theology is a syncretistic belief system, including elements of Buddhism, Christianity, esoteric mysticism, the paranormal and alchemy, with a belief in angels, elves, fairies, and other beings it calls elementals (or spirits of nature). It centers on communications supposedly received from** Ascended Masters **through the Holy Spirit.”

Ah yes…

The Great White Masters (oddly enough, it was never a racial title).

FYI-according to the Church Universal and Triumphant, Jesus was one too

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Neither of what things…?
If you are referring to my mention of the Nazis, it was you who brought up the Holocaust. Now why would you choose such an extreme example?
And if you aren’t labeling Opus Dei as a cult, why do you directly compare it with the group that you say you were forced, as a child, to participate in?

To highlight how ridiculous the other poster’s claim was.
And I said Opus Dei *reminded me *of a cult.

Although I personally subscribe to the view that a cult is just a religion with no political power. Of course (like virtually everyone else) I’m biased:shrug:

 

[AngryAtheist8]

First off, I just want to clarify that: Bad men in the Church =/= the Church.
Second, you are probably right that some of the more emotional-types are going to be clouded by bias, but you would be foolish to assert that all are simply by virtue of being Catholic. Going by statistics alone, it’ll be the case that some clergy somewhere are up to no good. They are humans, after all.

But the question is whether these particular clergymen transgressed. As with any other accused, I say apply the same burden of proof and evidentiary standard to them as you would with any other defendant. So I say simply to give them a fair trial, and in a court of justice, not public opinion.

If the People in the Catholic Church do not equal the Catholic Church, how can the Church BE anything?

 

[Havard]

If the People in the Catholic Church do not equal the Catholic Church, how can the Church BE anything?

I’m not saying the Church isn’t a society, I’m saying it isn’t the same as specific individuals who form a portion of that society. E.g., the Penn State football program isn’t equal to only Jerry Sandusky and the men who covered up his (alleged*) molestation. The distinction is especially clear in cases where the transgressions of individuals within the community are done in secrecy/without the knowledge of the greater community.

*For the sake of fairness.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

As someone who was a member of a cult

Why didn’t you just leave the cult? Did they hold you against your will?

 

[Havard]

One more thing, Angry:

A truly loyal Catholic is, by nature, just in such cases, as he/she wishes to root out any evil from within, not to allow it to fester and grow. Those who defend the wicked, whether intelligently or ignorantly, are NOT being loyal to the Church, they are giving aid and comfort to a cancer within the Church.

Not saying the case at hand is one of those cases, of course. I’m speaking theoretically.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Why didn’t you just leave the cult? Did they hold you against your will?

I was a child at the time.

 

[LiveCatholic]

I didn’t join willing:shrug:
My parents became members when I was a child, and left the C.U.T. when I was still a pre-teen.

Sorry to hear that, AA8.

But since were being frank here, I don’t think a faithful member of Catholic Church is capable of judging the actions of the Church objectively.

After all, a faithful Catholic is required to many things (the Death and Resurrection of Christ, the Assumption of Mary, etc.).

Oh? Because members of the RCC never leave angrily the Church as young men and women, expose themselves to different philosophies, religions, and cultures… only to return to the Church with a completely fresh perspective? Nevermind the perspective of their often non-Catholic husband or wife?

Interesting reasoning you have there, interesting…

 

[LiveCatholic]

So your claiming that the Magdalene Laundries were simply a product of their environment? That the Irish Catholic Church wasn’t any worse than the rest of Irish society?

Yeah.

No worse than the rest of Irish society, especially relative to where the women started.

Even if true, that doesn’t seem like much of a defense for a group that claims to be the moral authority.

The Church has engaged in many endeavors throughout history, all informed–to at least some extent–by its beliefs. Perhaps this was one of the more unfortunate ones.
*
Its not like the Church hasn’t and doesn’t apologize for things*, and attempt to compensate those who have gotten the short end of the stick, due to the blunders and wickedness of some of its servants.

 

[LiveCatholic]

So only people who have direct experience participating in injustices or combating them have the right to comment on such things.
According to this kind of reasoning, only those who participated in the Holocaust (as victims or victimizers) have the right to make moral judgments about it

**
Godwin’s Law, Godwin’s Law, Godwin’s Law.**

Just kidding. But, look, its easy to criticize the Laundries, though the fact of the matter is that we’re sitting here right now as some hideous injustice goes on, that we’re benefiting from. Perhaps its being abated in some slightly self-serving or less-than-completely-humane way.

If you believe you have the moral high ground to criticize the Laundries, what about what goes on in your own backyard, hm?

 

[St_Francis]

So your claiming that the Magdalene Laundries were simply a product of their environment? That the Irish Catholic Church wasn’t any worse than the rest of Irish society?

I read some of the reports that came out about the abuse in Irish Catholic institutions over several decades, and some of the events reported were truly abusive, absolutely. However, some of what was reported does seem to be similar to what seems to have been accepted disciplinary methods elsewhere.

Also, during parts of that period, the situations were very stressed due to wars, etc.

However, it seems that abusive people of various types worm their way into these situations precisely to abuse, so the main thing it shows is that it is extremely important for all instituions with children in their care, including but not limited to US public schools, comparable organizations of other denominations or religions, and places which care for delinquent people, all of which have had problems similar to those of the Catholic Church and often around the same periods of time.

Even if true, that doesn’t seem like much of a defense for a group that claims to be the moral authority.

This is the deal: the Cathoic Church is full of people. Not one, including the Pope, is impeccable. What is without error is the teaching of the Church, and when members of the Church commit bad acts, they are acting against the teachings of the Church. With all the help that they can find within the Church, they choose instead to do the wrong thing, and sometimes go so far as to deliberately use the Church to act as a blind.

What happens when you consider the people who follow the Church’s teaching and moral code? Whom do you find? People who are universally applauded like Mother Teresa, St Francis of Assisi, St Nicholas, St Augustine, St Patrick…

So by whom would you judge the Catholic Church, by those who go against Church teaching or those who follow Church teaching?

 

[Faithdancer]

Why didn’t you just leave the cult? Did they hold you against your will?

Perhaps those fairies used magic dust?