2 Opus Dei followers on trial in France

[Busy_bee]

I’m sure it is. But it’s also the case that throughout Opus Dei’s history there have been accusations of cultlike behaviors. ODAN was started by a woman who’s daughter had been ordered by her Opus Dei handlers to break all contact with her family. They had to hire a deprogrammer.

This article in America Magazine from 1995 is a thorough look at what was going on, and these kinds of stories surface all over on a steady basis. There’s someone right here in the thread who is trying to be heard.

The OFM isn’t a secret society. You aren’t being a priest of OFM while running a radio station and telling no one you are a religious priest. You weren’t told not to tell your own family you were in formation. Even cloistered nuns get to have family witnesses at final vows. ** Fidelity don’t even get to tell anyone else they are in Opus Dei much less that they have completed five years of formation and are making a lifetime commitment to celibacy and Opus Dei. **Friaries are on the map. You might not encourage drop-in lay visitors, but you aren’t a secret. Opus Dei centers exist in Dioceses without Bishops even having a clue they are there. Your Constitutions are online because Franciscans of all stripes put them there. In the local language. Opus Dei has never published their Statutes and Constitutions or translated them except into Spanish.

OFM and Opus Dei have little in common except that even a religious brother can be a cooperator. I mean, you can be an atheist and be a cooperator.

If they didn’t tell anyone, then how did you know this?

Opus Dei has never published their Statutes and Constitutions or translated them except into Spanish.

Well, it did originate in Spain. Get a translator.

OFM and Opus Dei have little in common except that even a religious brother can be a cooperator. I mean, you can be an atheist and be a cooperator.

Precisely why the term is cooperator. See you know a lot. Why still uneasy and skeptical? Because it’s different?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Okay, I know about the centres and the oratories. But you are wrong there again. The Diocesan Bishop need not know. Opus Dei prelature has a bishop and as Bro. JR put it, he has a universal jurisdiction that is not limited by geographical location. Opus Dei can be anywhere round the world. This does not mean that the Diocesan Bishop does not know about it, as I know this Opus Dei priest who comes to our parish to help out and served mass with the ArchBishop of my Archdiocese. How can his identity be unknown? Of course he’s known and introduced as a priest of Opus Dei in my parish.

But that priest was not a Priest of the Prelature, of Opus Dei, you see, there are two kinds of “Opus Dei Priests.” Here’s the kind you saw:

42 Besides the clerics mentioned in N 36 and N 37, Associate and Supernumerary members may also be ascribed to the Priestly Society of the Holy Cross, according to norm N 58; however, they cannot be counted among the clerics of the Prelature, for everyone continues to belong to his diocesan presbyterite, under the jurisdiction of his respective Bishop alone.

Here’s the other kind:

1S2 The priests of the Prelature are those clerics who are promoted to Orders from the lay faithful of the Prelature and are incardinated into it;

51S1 Priests of the Prelature clergy are not able to accept any priestly or ecclesiastical offices whatever, even if they are compatible with their own condition and pastoral ministry in the Prelature, without having the express permission of the Prelate of Opus Dei.

51S2 Nevertheless, they are not prohibited from exercising professional activity not opposed to their priestly character according to the norm of law, and prescriptions and instructions of the Holy See.

8S1 Numeraries [all priests of the Prelature are Numeraries] are those clerics and laity who, by a special motion and gift of God live apostolic celibacy (cfr Matt: 19:11). They devote themselves to the particular apostolic undertakings of the Prelature, with all their strength and with maximum personal availability to work. Ordinarily, they live in Centers of Opus Dei in order to care for the apostolic undertakings and to dedicate themselves to the formation of the other faithful of the Prelature.

36S1 The priesthood of the Prelature is made up of those clerics, who are promoted to sacred Orders by the Prelate according to NN 44-51 They are incardinated in the Prelature and are dedicated to its service.

38 These priests perform diligently their primary work which is the spiritual and ecclesiastical formation of and particular care of the souls of other faithful of both Sections of Opus Dei.

These are the priests of Opus Dei, somewhere between 2000-3000 are the last worldwide estimates I read. They live in the Centers and take care of all of the spiritual needs of the “faithful of Opus Dei.” Only certain kinds of members are considered “the faithful.”

It is also written into the Statutes that the Diocesan Bishop must know about and permit the erection of a canonically erected center. Here’s how to get around that:

161S5
Thus there are in the Prelature autonomous Centers and Centers dependent on others, which are not canonically erected.
178S2
Likewise, it carries with it the faculty of having an oratory for the use of the faithful of the Prelature and others in each Center, according to the norm of law, and of reserving there the most Blessed Eucharist and performing functions relevant to the apostolic work. In oratories, solemn exposition of the most Blessed Sacrament ought to be held, at least, on the night before the first Friday of each month.

So it’s the same thing, just secret.

Don’t cast aspersions on them. You will be against a Bishop of the church and the Holy Father himself. If it was wrong or fishy, don’t you think The holy Spirit would have guided the Pope to see it and refuse allowing it?

First, I didn’t “cast aspersions” on anyone so please don’t accuse me of things I have not done. What it is makes no sense to me.

Second, what Opus Dei says is just what it says. It’s not the Church. It’s not Scripture, or the Magesterium or any other thing. It’s something that never even existed until Vatican II, it’s an ongoing experiment. And what makes you think a Pope has any intimate knowledge of what’s going on? Recent history has shown us how isolated Popes and Bishops can be from many of the goings-on in the huge population of people that make up the Church.

I overheard a coursemate of mine in an argument with her sister over her choosing to be a numerary. So I don’t think it’s a rule not to tell the family.

I posted the rule, right from Opus Dei’s Statutes. You have to have permission. She obviously had permission. They give them permission just before the enter the Centers, from what I read, so families don’t panic and come looking for them. More from the Constitution:

8S1 .
Numeraries are those clerics and laity who, by a special motion and gift of God live apostolic celibacy (cfr Matt: 19:11). They devote themselves to the particular apostolic undertakings of the Prelature, with all their strength and with maximum personal availability to work. Ordinarily, they live in Centers of Opus Dei in order to care for the apostolic undertakings and to dedicate themselves to the formation of the other faithful of the Prelature.

8S2
Female numeraries, as mentioned above, care for the family or domestic administration of all centers of the Prelature, even though they may live in places completely separate.

 

[Red_Meg]

So you are part of Opus Dei, then. I understand the non sequitor, I was just talking to someone else about them. I referred to this from their Statutes:

So how do we trust an organization that has, as part of it’s statutes, not to tell anyone you are part of it because it can cause problems with your “natural family?”

I apologize for jumping in here as I don’t have huge amounts of time to devote to this discussion for a few days, but I must ask–

Julia Mae-- what is your source for the materials that forbid revealing membership without the director’s permission? I did a quick scan through the Latin statutes on line and couldn’t find it, but chalked it up to my poor Latin. I then opened the ODAN English translation *and couldn’t find it there either. *Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread, but where exactly are you quoting from?

Full disclosure: I am a supernumerary of Opus Dei. This discussion caught my eye precisely because what you were quoting does not ring true at all with my experience.

Best,

Margaret

 

[Julia_Mae]

If they didn’t tell anyone, then how did you know this?

Because it’s in the Constitutions.

Well, it did originate in Spain. Get a translator.

Well, that was quite rude. Inn fat, the Statutes and Constitutions are written in the very particular Latin of the Church, and the Spanish translation has not been made public, nor the Latin, to this day by Opus Dei. English translations are online here. So are testimonies from people who broke away from Opus Dei. Were those isolated incidents or is there an problem endemic to the whole structure which is a function of the systematized secrecy and compartmentalization and isolation of it’s members?

I don’t know. But before you run off and disappear into a “Center” you might want to look at both sides of the coin, not just listen to your recruiter.

Precisely why the term is cooperator. See you know a lot. Why still uneasy and skeptical? Because it’s different?

It is, actually, completely familiar. I am not “uneasy.” I am more completely and independently informed. Instead of listening to me or your friend, why not simply look around the public offerings of the Internet and see what you find. I left two links here. If you can, without asking anyone else or listening to anyone else, walk away from your computer right now and think about it and explain any true benefit to the secrecy of Opus Dei, I’d like to hear it. Not catchphrases from Opus Dei Darla, from you.

I am interested in you. Not anyone else. Here’s what happened to some students who were recruited by Opus Dei. I wonder if any of it sounds familiar?

One man who attended Columbia University … who asked not to be named, described the process of being recruited by Opus Dei. “They had someone become my friend,” he said bluntly. After Mass one day he was approached by another student, with whom he soon became good friends…
After becoming more involved …At the next circle meeting he raised some questions about issues that troubled him—for example, women and minority presence in Opus Dei. “They really didn’t have any answers and asked me not to return.” And more disturbing for him: “I never heard from my friend again. I was totally cut off.”

Tammy DiNicola talked about her experience. “They staged a vocation crisis for me,” she said. “At the time, I didn’t realize they had staged it. But it’s standard practice. The person that’s working on you is consulting with the director, and the two of them decide when is the best time to propose the question of vocation to the recruit.”
Why is it a crisis? “Well, they make it a crisis for you!” said Ann Schweninger. “And it’s totally orchestrated. They tell you it’s a decision you have to make now, that God is knocking on the door, and that you have to have the strength and fortitude to say yes.” Tammy DiNicola was told that it was her only chance for a vocation. “Basically it’s a one-shot deal—if you don’t take it, you’re not going to have God’s grace for the remainder of your life.”

I asked if they were surprised at hearing that the man at Columbia had been cut off by his friend. “No,” said Tammy recalling her own recruiting days. “They use friendships to get people to join. They call it an apostolate of friendship and confidence, but it’s certainly not confidence—because everything that you talk about with your recruit is discussed with your director.” Even personal matters? “Especially personal matters, because those are the things that you can use so that a person would think about joining Opus Dei.”

 

[Julia_Mae]

I apologize for jumping in here as I don’t have huge amounts of time to devote to this discussion for a few days, but I must ask–

Julia Mae-- what is your source for the materials that forbid revealing membership without the director’s permission? I did a quick scan through the Latin statutes on line and couldn’t find it, but chalked it up to my poor Latin. I then opened the ODAN English translation *and couldn’t find it there either. *Perhaps I missed something earlier in the thread, but where exactly are you quoting from?

Full disclosure: I am a supernumerary of Opus Dei. This discussion caught my eye precisely because what you were quoting does not ring true at all with my experience.

Best,

Margaret

It’s number 191 of the 1950 Statutes which are still in effect. odan.org/statutes_1950.htm You can download them here in Latin plus English translation and the 1982 Constitutions are also available.

The thing to know about how they work together is a legal term you’ll often see in the 1982 Statutes is mutatis mutandis, a Latin term that is actually part of modern English, it’s a legal term meaning essentially: “the first thing is still true unless it was specifically changed.”

It’s a real challenge to find all the stuff about any topic because it’s scattered through the documents, like the parts about priests, I had to use the “Find” function to get all the relevant sections. Same for centers. The 1950 is the basis, though, then the 1982 adds a few things. What it adds is pretty interesting.

Happy reading.

 

[Busy_bee]

Well, that was quite rude. Inn fat, the Statutes and Constitutions are written in the very particular Latin of the Church, and the Spanish translation has not been made public, nor the Latin, to this day by Opus Dei. English translations are online here

Precisely why the term is cooperator. See you know a lot. Why still uneasy and skeptical? Because it’s different?

It is, actually, completely familiar. I am not “uneasy.” I am more completely and independently informed. Instead of listening to me or your friend, why not simply look around the public offerings of the Internet and see what you find. I left two links here. If you can, without asking anyone else or listening to anyone else, walk away from your computer right now and think about it and explain any true benefit to the secrecy of Opus Dei, I’d like to hear it. Not catchphrases from Opus Dei Darla, from you.

You keep calling it secrecy. When their constitution is online for you to see? And just where are you getting the information that you are using to CAST ASPERSIONS ON THEIR NATURE< PURPOSE< AND GOOD INTENTIONS? That is what you are doing, please understand.

I am interested in you. Not anyone else. Here’s what happened to some students who were recruited by Opus Dei. I wonder if any of it sounds familiar?

I wonder how one can make a decision if one is not made to face oneself. A vocation crises. We are talking about lay people, most of whom (even though I have no statistics I dare say it) are content to sit on their butts and let the clergy and religious rally around. Unless something extraordinary happens (and it doesn’t happen often I tell you) we don’t think too often of our vocation. Many take it for granted that they are to be married, others that they are not to be and all sorts.
What they describe has happened to me. However I must say they have put two horns on the face of Opus Dei.

News Flash: They don’t want you if it is not your vocation! You think any organisation wants to be wrong about their member’s vocation? So that he/she will then cause scandal and discouragement for those whose real vocation it is?

There are people who have been refused, or redirected to other places to fulfil their calling.

The person becomes your friend. The person only tells you about it when it is thought that you may be ready to consider it. Before that time what are you told? You are taught if you want to learn how to pray, how to be nice, how to talk to Jesus, your ressponsibility as a student or worker, the importance of frequent confession to pray the rosary, that the mass is the centre of your interior life, e.t.c And when it seems that you truly desire an intimate relationship with God, it is suggested to you that you should consider what your vocation might be. There is no wrong response they may even be no response.

Yes, the director must give permission but in order that it is clear that the person can consider it seriously. I have a friend (again) who was asked if she had thought of her vocation and she said it was not to Opus Dei. She was NOT cut off.
If one thinks one has a vocation, I can assure you the reply will not be “okay, you’re in”. It can be really tough, I tell you.

Also, the friend (or recruiter) as you called her, happens to be my one true friend in class. The only one whose shoulders I can cry on.

To even join a circle, you must have shown dedication and commitment to attending the means of formation. Only those in the circles can even be asked about vocation matters because they have developed some spiritual maturity and ars willing to struggle in the faith.

 

[Busy_bee]

One man who attended Columbia University … who asked not to be named, described the process of being recruited by Opus Dei. “They had someone become my friend,” he said bluntly. After Mass one day he was approached by another student, with whom he soon became good friends…
After becoming more involved …At the next circle meeting he raised some questions about issues that troubled him—for example,** women and minority presence in Opus Dei.** “They really didn’t have any answers and asked me not to return.” And more disturbing for him: “I never heard from my friend again. I was totally cut off.”

This is apostolate. You try to get to know more people who may be willing to partake in the means of formation offered by Opus Dei. Nobody sends anyone to become anybody’s particular friend. They are radical means, but it is better this way, because personal apostolate is more fruitful. When you talk one-on-one with people you know who and what they are.
Circle? If he was in the circle then he had been attending the means of formation for sometime.

,** women and minority presence in Opus Dei.**

This cannot be commented upon. What did he say?

Tammy DiNicola talked about her experience. “They staged a vocation crisis for me,” she said. “At the time, I didn’t realize they had staged it.
Tammy DiNicola was told that it was her only chance for a vocation.

Question. Do you think that she would have woken up one morning and decided she wanted to join Opus DEi without knowing them, what they are about?

But it’s standard practice. The person that’s working on you is consulting with the director, and the two of them decide when is the best time to propose the question of vocation to the recruit.”

Your friend has to ask her director if she can tell you about something as serious as a vocation. Surprise!
I ask my mum if I can tell my friend she needs to take math lessons. So, what’s secretive or phony about this?

Why is it a crisis? “Well, they make it a crisis for you!” said Ann Schweninger. “And it’s totally orchestrated. They tell you it’s a decision you have to make now, that God is knocking on the door, and that you have to have the strength and fortitude to say yes.”

I was never told it was a decision I had to make NOW. It is a decision I have to make period. Pray now, and know if this is what God wants for you. Start praying about it, I was told and for 2 years I was told nothing new.

“Basically it’s a one-shot deal—if you don’t take it, you’re not going to have God’s grace for the remainder of your life.”

Your vocation is a one shot deal. It is God’s plan for your life. It is either you say, I come to do your will or you say no. The point is for you to realise how important this is in your life. Even though you are a lay person, you are not just a lay person. You have been thought of from all eternity and God has a plan for you as He does for every single one of his children.
If you pray, you’ll know if it is for you or not and you can calmly give your reply. It is better for you, if your reply is no, to keep searching and praying, so it is better for you not to be so involved in Opus Dei activities so as not to be distracted from your quest. However, no one is “cut off” or told they should never come back to the centre. I find that quite hard to believe.

I asked if they were surprised at hearing that the man at Columbia had been cut off by his friend. “No,” said Tammy recalling her own recruiting days. “They use friendships to get people to join. They call it an apostolate of friendship and confidence, but it’s certainly not confidence—because everything that you talk about with your recruit is discussed with your director.” Even personal matters? “Especially personal matters, because those are the things that you can use so that a person would think about joining Opus Dei.”

No, they use friendships to get people closer to God and to the church.

Yes it is an apostolate of friendship and confidence- the friend is obliged to listen and answer truthfully but has the director as her own friend too her own confidant. The Director must know what is going on. A mother or father will expect their children to confide in them, otherwise how is it a family? Personal concerns need not be spoken of to the director, but the director can tell no one else if she does know a personal detail.

Well, I hope they have all discerned their true vocations. If Opus Dei is the will of God, nothing will stop it.

 

[Busy_bee]

QUOTE=Julia Mae;8903538]But that priest was not a Priest of the Prelature, of Opus Dei, you see, there are two kinds of “Opus Dei Priests.” Here’s the kind you saw:

How do you know the kind I saw? The kind I saw is the kind who are first numeraries.
You are organising my story to suit your argument.:tsktsk:

These are the priests of Opus Dei, somewhere between 2000-3000 are the last worldwide estimates I read. They live in the Centers and take care of all of the spiritual needs of the “faithful of Opus Dei.” Only certain kinds of members are considered “the faithful.”

Yes, he lives in the centre.

It is also written into the Statutes that the Diocesan Bishop must know about and permit the erection of a canonically erected center. Here’s how to get around that:
So it’s the same thing, just secret.

These centres affiliated to other centres are not places where the evil deeds get done please! So you are insinuating that they have hidden reasons for wanting to have unappoved centres?

First, I didn’t “cast aspersions” on anyone so please don’t accuse me of things I have not done. What it is makes no sense to me.

Unless I don’t know what the word means, that is exactly what you are doing!
Aspersion

1. slanderous remark: a statement that attacks somebody’s character or reputation

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009.

Second, what Opus Dei says is just what it says. It’s not the Church. It’s not Scripture, or the Magesterium or any other thing. It’s something that never even existed until Vatican II, it’s an ongoing experiment. And what makes you think a Pope has any intimate knowledge of what’s going on? Recent history has shown us how isolated Popes and Bishops can be from many of the goings-on in the huge population of people that make up the Church.

The pope approves of something, recognises it’s priests’ ordination and sends its members all over the place and that’s not good enough for you. There is a Bishop of Opus Dei, but I’m sure he is confused and doesn’t know how much damage his allowing Opus Dei’s existence in the way that it is now is causing. The pope, the Bishop and the Saint are all WRONG. You are right. You know it all. It is an ongoing failing experiment in your point of view and the Pope needs to wake up and see that, right? So they can stop these cultists, right?

What right have you to challenge the Pope’s knowledge of the goings-on in Opus Dei? Do you know how many times the Bishop Prelate meets with the Pope? You are questioning the STATUTES for goodness’ sake. How can the Pope and the Bishop Prelate not know what it contains?? A Pope approved it and the Bishop Prelate enforces it!

I posted the rule, right from Opus Dei’s Statutes. You have to have permission. She obviously had permission. They give them permission just before the enter the Centers, from what I read, so families don’t panic and come looking for them. More from the Constitution:

She doesn’t live in the centre yet. She will, as time goes on, though.
You see, if I have a vocation to Opus Dei as a numerary for instance, I would have to live in a centre. Of course my family needs to know. Will they show resistance, likely. It is not usual for a young person to be lay and unmarried as a vocation. Can families make trouble? Yes, but not all. Is Opus Dei responsible for my decision? No, I must take personal responsibility for my vocation and that includes breaking the news, explaining things, consoling and helping out if need be. However, all vocations are demanding. There are things you will be doing that will make it very difficult to take time out to go see your family. But that doesn’t stop them from coming to see you. I don’t know the rules on that, but I’ve seen members’ family come around visiting. You are not told you are not to see your family again. That I know is a lie.

 

[Julia_Mae]

You keep calling it secrecy. When their constitution is online for you to see? And just where are you getting the information that you are using to CAST ASPERSIONS ON THEIR NATURE< PURPOSE< AND GOOD INTENTIONS? That is what you are doing, please understand.

You ask “where am I getting my information?” 90% of what I posted comes directly from Opus Dei’s Statutes and Constitutions. If what you read seems to “cast aspersions” on them, they are doing it to themselves through their own Rules. Any other source I linked for you.

We are talking about lay people, most of whom (even though I have no statistics I dare say it) are content to sit on their butts and let the clergy and religious rally around.

Well, this is pretty judgmental, isn’t it? You judge me, you have decided a whole lot of people are apathetic about their faith, when I wonder just how involved you are with the people of your own Parish? I was quite involved for quite a long time. I’m 62 years old, you seem from your posts to be significantly younger, so let’s assume I have seen more people up close for longer in Parish life. They tend to be real Christians. The kind we’ve been talking about, the ones who don’t go trumpeting their good works all over the place. But they do plenty, each in their way, through their work and everyday lives, to live their true vocation: to show forth the image of Christ to the world.

These are people quietly going about doing the works of Christ it, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sick, visiting the imprisoned. I know one women , oh I knew her a long time before someone mentioned to me that she spent a lot of time at the prison with death row inmates. That was just one. I knew many many people like this.

Who made you judge with no evidence, there, little Miss?

What they describe has happened to me. However I must say they have put two horns on the face of Opus Dei.

No, they just related their own experiences. If there are horns to be seen, they are generated by the experiences.

The person becomes your friend. The person only tells you about it when it is thought that you may be ready to consider it

Did you have any friends before? Why were they your friend? To try and get you to believe something and join something they wanted you to do? Friends are people who value you just as you are without wanting you to change one thing. They are with you not because they have a hidden agenda, but because being with you makes them happy.

I can assure you the reply will not be “okay, you’re in”. It can be really tough, I tell you.

So I have been told. After all, who’d want to be in a club anybody can join? What’s so special about that? Might as well just be a Catholic going to Mass.

Also, the friend (or recruiter) as you called her, happens to be my one true friend in class. The only one whose shoulders I can cry on.

I was absolutely sure of it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Your vocation is a one shot deal. It is God’s plan for your life…

This is a lie. The only “Plan” God has for your life is to get you to Him. Period. And you can say no a 100,000 times, to all kinds of doors He opens and paths He presents and He will ALWAYS be there ready to welcome you and guide you to Him. Always.

There’s no such thing as a “one shot deal” with God. Ever.

 

[Busy_bee]

You ask “where am I getting my information?” 90% of what I posted comes directly from Opus Dei’s Statutes and Constitutions. If what you read seems to “cast aspersions” on them, they are doing it to themselves through their own Rules. Any other source I linked for you.

It is not what I read, but your interpretation of it.

Well, this is pretty judgmental, isn’t it? You judge me, you have decided a whole lot of people are apathetic about their faith, when I wonder just how involved you are with the people of your own Parish? I was quite involved for quite a long time. I’m 62 years old, you seem from your posts to be significantly younger, so let’s assume I have seen more people up close for longer in Parish life. They tend to be real Christians. The kind we’ve been talking about, the ones who don’t go trumpeting their good works all over the place. But they do plenty, each in their way, through their work and everyday lives, to live their true vocation: to show forth the image of Christ to the world.

Yes, even if it was only for charity I appreciate it. (who says I’m not a monster?)

 

[Julia_Mae]

! So you are insinuating that they have hidden reasons for wanting to have unappoved centres?

No, I am not insinuating a thing, I am openly saying that the 1982 Constitutions revised a portion of the 1950 Statutes to allow centers to be created that by-pass the requirement, put in place by Blessed Pope John Paul II, to get the local Ordinary’s permission. At the time, several Bishops had already forbidden any Opus Dei activity in their Dioceses, you see. This way, the activities take place without having to go through the Bishop.

Aspersion

1. slanderous remark: a statement that attacks somebody’s character or reputation

Yes, I speak English, also. Far as I can see, the only person being attacked here is me. I haven’t attacked any people I know of.

The pope approves of something, recognises it’s priests’ ordination and sends its members all over the place and that’s not good enough for you.

The Pope isn’t doing a thing. The Pope approves the election of the Prelate who serves for life. The Prelate is the Ordinary of Opus Dei, he, or another Bishop he might choose to assist him, ordains the Opus Dei Priests. The Pope doesn’t have anything to do with it.

The Pope sends no one anywhere, the Prelate does. Here he is: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Echevarria_Rodriguez

A “personal prelature” does’t mean it is the Pope’s personal organization, if that’s what someone told you. It means it’s a “prelature of PERSONS.” That means it isn’t bound by geography like a diocese or by a specific charism like some Orders have, it comprises individuals, persons, doing individual things, but to serve the goals of the organization.

The Pope doesn’t run Opus Dei, the Pope gets a report of general activities very five years. That’s as much as he knows, just like he doesn’t know everything going on in your Diocese. Your Bishop doesn’t even send him a report, I don’t think. I dunno, maybe they do.

There is a Bishop of Opus Dei, but I’m sure he is confused and doesn’t know how much damage his allowing Opus Dei’s existence in the way that it is now is causing. The pope, the Bishop and the Saint are all WRONG.

Young lady, I have quoted to you from the Statutes and Constitution of Opus Dei. If you find them upsetting, your disagreement is with Opus Dei, not with me. I have not attacked you. This is what is called ad hom. I am not a topic. Please stick to the issues.

You are questioning the STATUTES for goodness’ sake. How can the Pope and the Bishop Prelate not know what it contains?? A Pope approved it and the Bishop Prelate enforces it!

Well, let’s back up. The Statutes are rules and regs and operating procedures. I have posted them and pointed out what they say. I have asked for explanations. I asked you to think and give me, from your own ability to reason, how secrecy serves Christ in this matter. You have responded with no explanations but, instead, attacked me personally.

As for the Prelate, he isn’t enforcing something someone handed him, he wrote or helped write them. Opus Dei resides in the Prelate. Hence the name: “Prelature.” He holds office for life. Just like the Pope. In fact, next to the Pope, it could be argued he is the most canonically powerful single person in the Church. He interprets those Statutes, decides exactly what the words mean to say and when exceptions can be made to them.

She doesn’t live in the centre yet. She will, as time goes on, though.
You see, if I have a vocation to Opus Dei as a numerary for instance, I would have to live in a centre.

Yes, I know. I read the statutes.

You are not told you are not to see your family again. That I know is a lie.

No, you don’t. I certainly can’t prove it happened, you can’t prove it didn’t. This is what the woman said after she left Opus Dei. You know, these are not Holy Orders or Vows. Why do you think a young woman discerning a vocation to a religious Order, one of the many different Orders where Vows are made, is encouraged to discuss it with her family? In fact, most vocation directors I have heard of, won’t consider taking a novice who has not spoken with her family.

Why are you prohibited? This is your mother and father whom you are required by God to honor. How is this discerning a choice for the rest of your life that’s been going on for quite a while now being a secret honoring them?

I’ve asked you a lot of questions about what you think and what you believe and why this makes sense. You don’t answer them, but you have accused and attacked me as if I’m some villain. In fact, I’m inconsequential. I’m also done so… you will do as you wish of course but I repeat my suggestions: take a look at all sides. Read the testimonies at the ODAN site, read the Constitutions and Statutes.

Here’s an experiment for you, of course I assume your friend is on CAF so she’ll be expecting it, but take a few weeks off. Just walk away from all of it. Heck, take a computer break, as well. Go to the zoo, spend some time with your family, read something not related to all of this.

One last thing: in the history of the Church a LOT of bad things happened, many done by Popes and high ranking clerics. God does not interfere with our freewill. The fact that something is happening in the Church, doesn’t automatically guarantee it’s a good thing. The Catechism has some things to say about freedom. You might read them sometime.

God bless you abundantly.

JuliaMae

(We posted at the same time, I seriously do wish you well. I am also, according to my daughter, quite funny!)

 

[LovePatience]

Are there no people who have left the priesthood or the religious life? Did they say the church is a slave master? Opus Dei is a prelature of the catholic church. They are not slave masters. They are serving the church in the way ti needs to be served right now, and who does the church serve? God. They are servants of God period.
I’m sorry if anyone left feeling bitter. I think the person has gained more than he/she thinks they’ve lost. Our Lord Jesus worked tirelessly, even falling asleep with exhaustion.

You are right. We DON’T see other religious orders being attacked. That is because they are more transparent and open. What is presented is closer to what everyone gets so there is no need to complain about being misled.

Misrepresentation: If you receive an Opus Dei pamphlet, they will tell you about spiritual reading once a day. However, they frequently give advice to stop reading all outside reading but what St. Josemaria Escriva wrote himself. So why don’t they make that known as well?

Some quotes on obedience from St. Josemaria Escriva

1. In apostolic work there is no such thing as a trifling disobedience.

1. Obey, as an instrument obeys in the hands of the artist–not stopping to consider the why and the wherefore of what it is doing. Be sure that you’ll never be directed to do anything that isn’t good and for the greater glory of God.

1. The enemy: “Will you obey, even in this ridiculous little detail?” You with God’s grace; “I will obey, even in this heroic little detail!”

1. If obedience doesn’t give you peace, its because you’re proud.

John Allen is a person that even Opus Dei members say is fair; He wrote a book: “Opus Dei: An Objective Look Behind the Myths and Reality of the Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church” JOHN L. ALLEN, Jr., is the Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and a Vatican analyst for CNBN and National Public Radio. He is the author of Conclave, All the Pope’s Men, and Opus Dei, and writes the weekly Internet column, ‘The Word from Rome.’ He lives in New York City and Rome.

In his book, he writes:

Some have attacked the practice of spiritual direction on two grounds: first that it is given by a layperson who may lack training; and second, that these directors are sometimes young and lack life experience…

On the charge of youth and inexperience, some inside Opus Dei plead “guilty,” especially in earlier periods of the group’s history when it was not uncommon for a director to be in his early twenties. In some cases, members admit, youthful zeal outstripped a director’s capacity to appreciate the human complexity of a given situation.

 

[JReducation]

I’m sure it is. But it’s also the case that throughout Opus Dei’s history there have been accusations of cultlike behaviors. ODAN was started by a woman who’s daughter had been ordered by her Opus Dei handlers to break all contact with her family. They had to hire a deprogrammer.

This article in America Magazine from 1995 is a thorough look at what was going on, and these kinds of stories surface all over on a steady basis. There’s someone right here in the thread who is trying to be heard.

The OFM isn’t a secret society. You aren’t being a priest of OFM while running a radio station and telling no one you are a religious priest. You weren’t told not to tell your own family you were in formation. Even cloistered nuns get to have family witnesses at final vows. Fidelity don’t even get to tell anyone else they are in Opus Dei much less that they have completed five years of formation and are making a lifetime commitment to celibacy and Opus Dei.

Friaries are on the map. You might not encourage drop-in lay visitors, but you aren’t a secret. Opus Dei centers exist in Dioceses without Bishops even having a clue they are there. Your Constitutions are online because Franciscans of all stripes put them there. In the local language. Opus Dei has never published their Statutes and Constitutions or translated them except into Spanish.

OFM and Opus Dei have little in common except that even a religious brother can be a cooperator. I mean, you can be an atheist and be a cooperator.

I had already explained to you, as I explained on this thread, that this kind of language is typical for Secular Institutes. And I explained to you why they use it. I also said that in my opinion, in today’s world, it’s probably no longer necessary. However, the Opus Dei has no more authority to change its constitutions than do Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites or any other institute of Pontifical Right.

The Opus Dei Constitutions can only be changed with the explicit approval of Pope Benedict, because Opus Dei is a Personal Prelature of the Holy Father. Therefore, if St. Jose Maria Escriva and their general chapter wrote something that was approved by the pope, as is this piece of writing, then it can only be changed with his approval.

Canon Law also says that no institute, secular or religious my hold a constitutional chapter without the permission of the Holy See. This means that none of us can hold a general chapter with the purpose of changing or amending our constitutions without asking the Holy See for permission. Permission has sometimes been denied.

This does not mean that these folks in France did not violate some employment law. I don’t know French employment laws.

However, you’re making a bigger thing about this discretion thing than any of us who are religious, secular religious, or clergy would make about this. This is not unusual language. What answer are you looking for?

This is a lie. The only “Plan” God has for your life is to get you to Him. Period. And you can say no a 100,000 times, to all kinds of doors He opens and paths He presents and He will ALWAYS be there ready to welcome you and guide you to Him. Always.

There’s no such thing as a “one shot deal” with God. Ever.

That’s kind of yes and no. The wording is not great, but there is a similar idea in Catholic theology. There are rules that a man who is going to be ordained or going to make solemn vows write a statement which says that he is doing this because he believes that this is the only way that he can save his immortal soul. Then he has to include that he is doing it freely, with full knowledge, etc etc.

The language is used in both religious life and in ordinations. Before Vatican II, there was actually a statement that you read before the congregation where you said that this was your only way to salvation or your surest way to salvation. I can’t recall exactly how it was worded, because I came in long after Vatican II. I’ve heard it before.

Fraternally,

Br, JR, OSF

 

[LovePatience]

Here is a former numerary and spiritual director’s testimony of how he was asked to direct though he didn’t now what he was doing.

I had to sort out why I had such a bad experience in Opus Dei. And I am convinced that the reason is in significant measure because the system is defective. I have many critical views about the system, and they are consistent with what other former members, especially John Roche, have written.

Essentially, many aspects of the religious way of thinking in Opus Dei, the Opus Dei spirit, are unsound. They harm people. I believe that if I had had the benefit of a knowledgeable, experienced spiritual director, I would not have had such a bad experience.

Indoctrination in the Opus Dei spirit turns peculiar ideas in theology in general, and spirituality in particular into dogma, just because Josemaria Escriva espoused them. For example, Escriva believed that personal holiness–whatever he means by that–is often sufficient qualification to give spiritual direction. He allowed very young numeraries–we are talking here of late teens to early twenties–to become spiritual directors, urging them to “mature quickly”–again, whatever he means by that. However, in my opinion, you can’t have children–and numeraries at this age are children when it comes to spiritual direction–counseling a person who is undergoing mystical experiences. You need a mature, experienced spiritual director.

At the age of 21, I myself was required to be a spiritual director. I was extremely distressed by the responsibility. I accepted this role only out of obedience–at that time, I had a vow to keep. I decided that all I would do would be to report to the committee what I had been told by the directee–spiritual direction was overseen by a group consisting of the priest, the director of the center, and sometimes, one other member of the local council–and then communicate their advice to the directee. “Tell him to exercise fortitude,” the priest would say. So I would tell the directee, “You have to exercise fortitude.” But the truth is, I was clueless.

I would add that Opus Dei priests are inbred in the bad sense of the word and often lack the knowledge, breadth, and depth to be good spiritual directors. Once again, I make this evaluation based on my own experience. The preparation of Opus Dei priests is inadequate because it is narrow. And there is no justifiable reason why the training of Opus Dei priests should be so limited because Opus Dei plainly has the resources to train them very well.

Let me give an example. At one point, I asked the Opus Dei priest why I had seen a vision of Escriva in the living room, years after he had died. The priest said, “God is sending you this vision to strengthen you.” Now, that didn’t sound right. It didn’t ring true. Years later, when I had left Opus Dei, I asked a secular priest about this experience, and he replied, “Visions can come from God or the devil.” Then he repeated St. John of the Cross’ counsel about treating mystical experiences as “glowing embers,” saying, “Feel the heat but do not grasp.” Ah!

The Opus Dei priest is trained to think along premeditated grooves and may not be sufficiently exposed to traditions in Catholic spirituality outside the ambit of the Opus Dei spirit.

Thus Escriva allowed children or priests inadequately trained to direct souls who are treading upon tricky and dangerous spiritual paths.

I think that my horrible experience with spiritual direction in Opus Dei would have not occurred had the following sound principles of spiritual direction been followed:

* The person must be encouraged to use reason.
* The person must be encouraged to follow conscience.
* The person must be encouraged to use discernment.
* The person must be allowed the opportunity to seek truth for themselves, which means no censorship and freedom to consult other priests and spiritual guides, without the Opus Dei guilt trip.
* The person must be encouraged to make decisions knowingly and independently and to accept full responsibility for decisions. Blind obedience produces blind people.
* The person must be encouraged to develop and grow as a normal human being and not live in the artificial Opus Dei environment. It has been called a "hothouse."

The point about censorship of information and freedom of choice in spiritual direction is a very important one. Opus Dei loves to exclaim that every member is free, free to come, go, leave, etcetera. Why the insistent repetition? Because individual freedom is a major sticking point in the testimonies of former members.

How can freedom exist when Escriva denigrated reason and conscience in the practice of obedience, which, by the way, in Opus Dei really derives not from any influence of lay spirituality but from the centuries-old tradition of religious spirituality? The same observation has been made by James Martin, S.J., Michael Walsh, and others.

How can a member truly exercise freedom if the choices are limited? Opus Dei limits the choices of members by identifying free access to information as a mortal sin, consultation with clergy outside Opus Dei as the direct influence of the devil, and departure from Opus Dei as a trip to Hell. No one with a sincere religious conscience and trustful of Opus Dei clergy will want to commit a mortal sin, dally with the devil, or jump into Hell. Therefore, the choices Opus Dei presents to members, misappropriating the name of God, are not choices at all. odan.org/tw_spirit_of_opus_dei_harms_people.htm

Much of Opus Dei advice - that you are encouraged to believe is from God - is an immature and inexperienced person with inconsistent/conflictual opinions. No one should give major responsibility over one’s life to someone who doesn’t know what they are doing.

 

[jaaraf]

For the record, Julia Mae, the two centers of Opus Dei where I live are listed in this Archdiocesan directory and identified as such ucanews.com/diocesan-directory/html/dps-pr_cebu_seminary.html
The directors regularly visit the local archbishop. They used to bring apple pie baked by the assistant numeraries which the Archbishop Emeritus Ricardo Cardinal Vidal loves.
Opus Dei only establishes Centers with the knowledge of the local ordinary. Recently, current Archbishop Jose Palma has already said Mass at the Center of the assistant numeraries which is attached to a technical school similar to the one involved in the case in Paris.
Full disclosure: I’m an associate member of Opus Dei, have been so for the past 11 years. I think I already mentioned this in previous posts.

 

[Busy_bee]

This is a lie. The only “Plan” God has for your life is to get you to Him. Period. And you can say no a 100,000 times, to all kinds of doors He opens and paths He presents and He will ALWAYS be there ready to welcome you and guide you to Him. Always.

There’s no such thing as a “one shot deal” with God. Ever.

And how?
He will always be ready to welcome you, when you submit to Him again.
One’s vocation is a one shot deal. There is a way you ought to go. If you don’t go that way, you’ll go other ways, but it won’t be smooth.
Try Jonah, Jesus.
God wants us to choose Him and His plan for us. It does not mean you’ll go to hell if you don’t accept it, but it will be the story of the Rich man who fulfilled all the commandments but didn’t want to live his life as Christ suggested. How hard it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Christ commented, after the man left.
He didn’t say the man won’t enter heaven, but he had denied a way of perfection which he ought to have followed. No other suggestions for him. Either you do it or you don’t. Sounds like a one shot deal to me.

 

[Busy_bee]

You are right. We DON’T see other religious orders being attacked. That is because they are more transparent and open. What is presented is closer to what everyone gets so there is no need to complain about being misled.

**Misrepresentation: If you receive an Opus Dei pamphlet, they will tell you about spiritual reading once a day. However, they frequently give advice to stop reading all outside reading but what St. Josemaria Escriva wrote himself. So why don’t they make that known as well? **

Some quotes on obedience from St. Josemaria Escriva

John Allen is a person that even Opus Dei members say is fair; He wrote a book: “Opus Dei: An Objective Look Behind the Myths and Reality of the Most Controversial Force in the Catholic Church” JOHN L. ALLEN, Jr., is the Vatican correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and a Vatican analyst for CNBN and National Public Radio. He is the author of Conclave, All the Pope’s Men, and Opus Dei, and writes the weekly Internet column, ‘The Word from Rome.’ He lives in New York City and Rome.

In his book, he writes:

It is not true that you read Only what St. Josemaria writes himself. But you must understand that the “Spirit of Opus Dei” is one that although called to, must still be learned. The Founder’s writings are important to the members, just as St. Teresa of Avila’s writings would have been to her nuns.
Some books written by the founder are widely distributed. Only those that refer specifically to Opus Dei members are not for public use.

 

[Busy_bee]

No, I am not insinuating a thing, I am openly saying that the 1982 Constitutions revised a portion of the 1950 Statutes to allow centers to be created that by-pass the requirement, put in place by Blessed Pope John Paul II, to get the local Ordinary’s permission. At the time, several Bishops had already forbidden any Opus Dei activity in their Dioceses, you see. This way, the activities take place without having to go through the Bishop.

Oh, okay.

The Pope isn’t doing a thing. The Pope approves the election of the Prelate who serves for life. The Prelate is the Ordinary of Opus Dei, he, or another Bishop he might choose to assist him, ordains the Opus Dei Priests. The Pope doesn’t have anything to do with it.

That is precisely why it is his responsibility to enforce it and be sure that it is adhered to. It is vital to the preservation of the spirit and goal of the organisation.

No, you don’t. I certainly can’t prove it happened, you can’t prove it didn’t. This is what the woman said after she left Opus Dei. You know, these are not Holy Orders or Vows. Why do you think a young woman discerning a vocation to a religious Order, one of the many different Orders where Vows are made, is encouraged to discuss it with her family? In fact, most vocation directors I have heard of, won’t consider taking a novice who has not spoken with her family.

The thing is, to join Opus Dei (truly) one has to be 23 years of age, even if you write a letter at 16, you are not bound to the work in any way whatsoever. You will only begin to live and be accepted as one of them. If after 5 years you don’t think it’s for you, you can simply walk away without drama. I think it is at the new member’s discretion when to tell the parents. The Director cannot ask you not to tell your parents - anyone who says that is trying to run away from the responsibility of their actions. It is decided, but not imposed. When do you intend to tell your family is the question. It is not will you tell them? The family has to know, and any child who does not tell her family what is going on is scared they won’t agree. It is personal, so the director or Opus Dei is not responsible for the decisions you make as regards your family. If your family comes to take you away from the centre they won’t even be stopped! You will be called and asked to follow them.

 

[Busy_bee]

Why are you prohibited? This is your mother and father whom you are required by God to honor. How is this discerning a choice for the rest of your life that’s been going on for quite a while now being a secret honoring them?

A short dossier on the life of a numerary who died in an accident featured some of her jottings in her diary and in one of those, she said that God should teach her how to show more love and affection for her family because she knows what this vocation she has chosen will cost them.
Yes, it will cost them a lot, but the founder of Opus Dei used to say that a child’s vocation is the fault of the parents because they have done such a good job that the child has desired a closer union with God. the parents lay the foundation.

Not all parents are willing to see things this way. They may not see the reason for a vocation where to all eyes you are simply a good catholic. If you are going to be a nun, say so. If not, be “normal” and have a family. How can your vocation be to be a spinster?
And there are many such arguments. This is why, sometimes, when a member joins the work by writing a letter for admission, they are not very willing to tell their parents and try to delay it as long as possible. However, they must be told, and are advised to do so before making any commitments.

I must stress that it is personal and no one will force you to tell them or not to tell them.

I’ve asked you a lot of questions about what you think and what you believe and why this makes sense. You don’t answer them, but you have accused and attacked me as if I’m some villain. In fact, I’m inconsequential. I’m also done so… you will do as you wish of course but I repeat my suggestions: take a look at all sides. Read the testimonies at the ODAN site, read the Constitutions and Statutes.

I have read the testimonies, and my intention was to say that you were not being open minded and that you aim to plant seeds of doubt for anyone considering a vocation to Opus Dei. I think you have confirmed that. At first, I thought what you were doing was wrong, but now, I think it is good for one’s decision to be sifted through the sieve and see what remains. You are trying to warn me, as though you were convinced I was putting my life in danger.
Thank you because you care, but I think that advice is not for me.
I pray that you try more to understand than to criticize and that someday you will consider that Opus Dei may in fact be a true vocation from God.

Here’s an experiment for you, of course I assume your friend is on CAF so she’ll be expecting it, but take a few weeks off. Just walk away from all of it. Heck, take a computer break, as well. Go to the zoo, spend some time with your family, read something not related to all of this.

What will be the aim of this …break?

One last thing: in the history of the Church a LOT of bad things happened, many done by Popes and high ranking clerics. God does not interfere with our freewill. The fact that something is happening in the Church, doesn’t automatically guarantee it’s a good thing. The Catechism has some things to say about freedom. You might read them sometime

.

I agree. The problem with this particular thing that is happening is that it has been approved of, it goes in line with the second vatican council’s statements on the role of laity, and that it is new (as you put it an ongoing experiment)
So, for it not to be a good thing, will put the church’s teaching on it’s infallibility through strain, as a Saint was the founder and there have been Bishops and it has survived for over 80 years.

I think that the Prelature is a good thing which can be improved upon while keeping intact the charism or spirit of it’s existence.

God bless you abundantly.

JuliaMae

(We posted at the same time, I seriously do wish you well. I am also, according to my daughter, quite funny!)

I’m sure we would laugh more when talking about something not as engaging as this. I’m sure you have very good intentions towards me.

Have you gone to a centre of Opus Dei? Asked these questions? You may get some answers. Try it and lets talk about how it went.