2 popes meet: Egyptian Copt and Pope Francis

[JReducation]

No, contrary to the opinion of many lay Catholics, the Bishop of Rome does not have exclusive right to the title “Father” or “Holy Father” As has been clearly explained, the term Pope comes from Greek, Pappas, meaning Father.

The Desert Fathers were all called Father, be they bishops, priests or simple hermits. The two great patriarchs of the Middle Ages, Francis and Dominic, are legally Holy Father Francis and Holy Father Dominic. This is how we refer to them in the Litany of the Saints and in formal and legal Church writings.

If you want confusion, go to any conservative Franciscan house. Conservative or traditional Franciscans always say “our Holy Father Francis”. There never was a Pope Francis. Everyone knew whom you meant. Now it is rather awkward. I always say, “our Holy Father St. Francis” for clarity.

For those who are concerned about the Orthodox pope, there is nothing to be concerned about. In fact, one must be careful that such a concern is rooted in simply not knowing the tradition rather than in Catholic triumphalism which is inappropriate.

 

[theistgal]

That may be but he is still not the rock upon which Christ built His Church. St. Peter being chief among the Apostles went to Rome and that is where “THE” Pope sits.

Wouldn’t hurt, though, for all of us to show the same humility that Pope Francis has done, in welcoming “another Pope” as an equal. Kinda like Our Lord washing the feet of the Apostles.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

St. Peter also went to Alexandria and Antioch. So what? The fact remains, “Pope” is more a term of endearment given to a patriarch by his flock than an official title. Properly speaking the Pope of Rome’s title ought to be/is Bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West (although Benedict XVI sadly dropped this title), and Pontifex Maximus.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Wouldn’t hurt, though, for all of us to show the same humility that Pope Francis has done, in welcoming “another Pope” as an equal. Kinda like Our Lord washing the feet of the Apostles.

 

[neokarny]

St. Peter also went to Alexandria and Antioch.

And sadly of the three, Antioch is the one that doesn’t use “pope.” Of course, not that the word is necessarily related to St. Peter himself.

 

[dzheremi]

Titles a little generic for my taste. It’d be more accurate to say “a” pope meeting “THE” Pope.

I agree.

The Patriarch of Alexandria has been known as Pope far longer than the Bishop of Rome.

I agree.

…



Anyway, there are a lot more photos over at the Huffington Post, if anyone’s interested (the article that goes with them is not the most well-written, but the photos are still neat).

 

[Zekariya]

That may be but he is still not the rock upon which Christ built His Church. St. Peter being chief among the Apostles went to Rome and that is where “THE” Pope sits.

The “bishop of Rome” sits on St Peter’s chair. The word pope is a title of endearment and is used by the bishop of Rome and the bishop of Alexandria. There is nothing inherently Petrine in the word “pope” other than popular usage in Western societies.

 

[Memaw]

No, contrary to the opinion of many lay Catholics, the Bishop of Rome does not have exclusive right to the title “Father” or “Holy Father” As has been clearly explained, the term Pope comes from Greek, Pappas, meaning Father.

The Desert Fathers were all called Father, be they bishops, priests or simple hermits. The two great patriarchs of the Middle Ages, Francis and Dominic, are legally Holy Father Francis and Holy Father Dominic. This is how we refer to them in the Litany of the Saints and in formal and legal Church writings.

If you want confusion, go to any conservative Franciscan house. Conservative or traditional Franciscans always say “our Holy Father Francis”. There never was a Pope Francis. Everyone knew whom you meant. Now it is rather awkward. I always say, “our Holy Father St. Francis” for clarity.

For those who are concerned about the Orthodox pope, there is nothing to be concerned about. In fact, one must be careful that such a concern is rooted in simply not knowing the tradition rather than in Catholic triumphalism which is inappropriate.

Without trying to sound to triumphalistic, while others may call themselves pope however they understand, it there is only one Pope as the Catholic Church understands it and that is Pope Francis. The office of Pope he holds, is the one that Jesus Christ first appointed to St. Peter as head of HIS Church and now Pope Francis is the 265th successor to St.Peter. While his is the Bishop of Rome, he is first and foremost the head of the whole Catholic Church.
I’m sure most Catholics understand what the Franciscans mean by "Holy Father Francis and never mistook him for a pope. And I have never heard a lay Catholic say they thought the Bishop of Rome had the exclusive right to the title “Father”, after all we do call our priests Father. I think the confusion comes when one tries to level the playing field and make our Pope no different than any other pope. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Yarb]

Certainly it’s been standard for decades, or more likely centuries, to call the head of the Coptic Church the Coptic pope. Calling him “Orthodox” may be confusing. The predominant Christian church of Egypt calls itself the Coptic Orthodox Church. It is not one of that group of mutually recognizing churches called the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is a “non-Chalcedoian” church along with the Armenian church and some others, i.e. it separated from the main body of Christians in AD 451 when it decided not to go along with the decisions of the Council of Chalcedon.

 

[Yarb]

And a little like wishing they were equal in authority which they aren’t. Like I said before, Christ only appointed one man, to be the head of HIS Catholic Church, And that man is our dear Pope Francis, successor of St.Peter. We pray for the unity of all Christians just as Jesus prayed that all would be one in Him. One Faith, One Church. God Bless, Memaw

I don’t think the word “pope” is even one of the official titles of the Roman pontiff. He is Supreme Pontiff (just as the chief priest of the polytheistic religion of Rome before Christianity bore that same title of Supreme Pontiff) and he is Bishop of Rome, and he has various other official titles as well. The word “pope” is unofficial.

Not only the Coptic pope (who is not of the Eastern Orthodox group of churches, but of a smaller group of eastern churches), but also the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria claims the title of pope. Look at the latter’s we site and you’ll see that he calls himself the Patriach and Pope of Alexandria and All Africa.

I’m surprised to see people calling this a media stunt, since the Coptic Pope has been called that in standard usage for so long.

 

[Elizium23]

Why such an outcry when Catholics discover there are more Popes than our own? Do we not call Orthodox Patriarchs, Bishops and Priests by their proper titles? Do we not call even Anglican or Lutheran ministers by what their congregation also calls them? I don’t like Obama, but I still call him President. It’s a matter of respect that we accord people their proper titles, and I am ashamed as a Christian when others do not treat others with respect. Especially such a high-ranking Orthodox Patriarch, with whom we should have very close relations, a valid bishop and leader of a much-persecuted flock in Egypt. He certainly doesn’t need persecution from Latins on top of his problem. Please follow the example of Francis and greet him warmly and listen to what he has to say, you may just learn from it.

 

[Zekariya]

Pope St Dionysius of Rome calls St Heraclas of Alexandria, pope:

“τοῦτον ἐγὼ τὸν κανόνα καὶ τὸν τύπον παρὰ τοῦ μακαρίου πάπα [papa] ἡμῶν Ἡρακλᾶ παρέλαβον.”

1. Then after saying some things concerning all the heresies he [Pope St Dionysius of Rome] adds: “I received this rule and ordinance from our blessed father [Greek: papa], Heraclas. For those who came over from heresies, although they had apostatized from the Church—or rather had not apostatized, but seemed to meet with them, yet were charged with resorting to some false teacher—when he had expelled them from the Church he did not receive them back, though they entreated for it, until they had publicly reported all things which they had heard from their adversaries; but then he received them without requiring of them another baptism. For they had formerly received the Holy Spirit from him.”

• Eusebius, Historia Ecclesiastica Book VII, Ch 7
  Source: newadvent.org/fathers/250107.htm

 

[JMJSHJ]

No, contrary to the opinion of many lay Catholics, the Bishop of Rome does not have exclusive right to the title “Father” or “Holy Father” As has been clearly explained, the term Pope comes from Greek, Pappas, meaning Father.

The Desert Fathers were all called Father, be they bishops, priests or simple hermits. The two great patriarchs of the Middle Ages, Francis and Dominic, are legally Holy Father Francis and Holy Father Dominic. This is how we refer to them in the Litany of the Saints and in formal and legal Church writings.

If you want confusion, go to any conservative Franciscan house. Conservative or traditional Franciscans always say “our Holy Father Francis”. There never was a Pope Francis. Everyone knew whom you meant. Now it is rather awkward. I always say, “our Holy Father St. Francis” for clarity.

For those who are concerned about the Orthodox pope, there is nothing to be concerned about. In fact, one must be careful that such a concern is rooted in simply not knowing the tradition rather than in Catholic triumphalism which is inappropriate.

The Catholic Encyclopedia says otherwise:

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

The title pope, once used with far greater latitude (see below, section V), is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth.

I think this should be followed because if you grant Patriarch’s, Bishop’s, Priest’s, Religious Founders, Deacons (St. Francis was a Deacon, nothing more), the title of Holy Father, Pope, then it could create confusion and also give a legitimacy also to some Sedevacantist’s who claim to be the Pope.

I don’t consider what I posted to be triumphalist.

 

[LilyM]

The Catholic Encyclopedia says otherwise:

newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm

I think this should be followed because if you grant Patriarch’s, Bishop’s, Priest’s, Religious Founders, Deacons (St. Francis was a Deacon, nothing more), the title of Holy Father, Pope, then it could create confusion and also give a legitimacy also to some Sedevacantist’s who claim to be the Pope.

I don’t consider what I posted to be triumphalist.

The title Pope has been used by Tawadros’ predecessors in office since about the late 200s AD. Which is arguably before it was adopted by even the Bishops of Rome. Moreover it is standard English usage and has been for at least the seventy years my mother has been on the earth.

And Rome clearly disagrees with both you and the Encyclopedia about St Francis of Assisi et al, since it was the Vatican itself who approved the use of the title ‘Holy Father Francis’ ‘Holy Father Dominic’ and so in to name them in liturgical prayer. It isn’t some rebellious unapproved addition by Franciscans or Dominicans.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. There is only one Bishop of Rome, only one head of the Catholic Church, and nobody is going to confuse him with anybody else or think he is just the same as any other religious leader, simple as that.

 

[Memaw]

The title Pope has been used by Tawadros’ predecessors in office since about the late 200s AD. Which is arguably before it was adopted by even the Bishops of Rome. Moreover it is standard English usage and has been for at least the seventy years my mother has been on the earth.

And Rome clearly disagrees with both you and the Encyclopedia about St Francis of Assisi et al, since it was the Vatican itself who approved the use of the title ‘Holy Father Francis’ ‘Holy Father Dominic’ and so in to name them in liturgical prayer. It isn’t some rebellious unapproved addition by Franciscans or Dominicans.

This is getting a bit ridiculous. There is only one Bishop of Rome, only one head of the Catholic Church, and nobody is going to confuse him with anybody else or think he is just the same as any other religious leader, simple as that.

I don’t believe St. Francis of Assisi or St. Dominic were ever called “Pope”. The title, Holy Father was in recognition of their Holiness. I believe all Catholics understood that. God Bless, Memaw.

 

[Steveabrous]

As has been pointed out, ‘Al baba’ is the exact equivalent of il Papa - Pope in Italian.

As an aside - dang, doesn’t it make you wish the two had somehow managed to meet up with Benedict at the same time? Maximum Pope power!!!

I guess my point is this. That no one ever calls him “Pope”. They may call him something in another language that translates into the same words that Pope translates to. And it may have the same meaning. But no one actually calls this man “Pope” except in the American secular media, now all of a sudden everyone is calling him Pope. Hmm. I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why now we are referring to the Coptic Patriarch by a term from a dead language that is only used in and been preserved by the Roman Catholic church. And using the term we use and have always used to refer to the one and only rock and vicar of Christ the Bishop of Rome? I suspect the reason the media decided to do this is to diminish the Pontif by making this Coptic Patriarch look as if he is equal to THE POPE. And he’s not

This is why I have a problem with it…

 

[LilyM]

I guess my point is this. That no one ever calls him “Pope”. They may call him something in another language that translates into the same words that Pope translates to. And it may have the same meaning. But no one actually calls this man “Pope” except in the American secular media, now all of a sudden everyone is calling him Pope. Hmm. I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why now we are referring to the Coptic Patriarch by a term from a dead language that is only used in and been preserved by the Roman Catholic church. And using the term we use and have always used to refer to the one and only rock and vicar of Christ the Bishop of Rome? I suspect the reason the media decided to do this is to diminish the Pontif by making this Coptic Patriarch look as if he is equal to THE POPE. And he’s not

This is why I have a problem with it…

But it’s not all of a sudden!

I live in Australia, an English speaking country, and for all of my forty years have heard Tawadros and his predecessors such as Shenouda referred to as Pope by everyone who mentioned them, including Catholic clergy and laity as well as mainstream media.

Same goes for my mother who is nearly seventy.

 

[Steveabrous]

But it’s not all of a sudden!

I live in Australia, an English speaking country, and for all of my forty years have heard Tawadros and his predecessors such as Shenouda referred to as Pope by everyone who mentioned them, including Catholic clergy and laity as well as mainstream media.

Same goes for my mother who is nearly seventy.

I am 43 and have been Catholic, and a news junkie, for 20 years and never, never before heard the term Pope referred to anyone accept the Pontiff.

But, I’m in America and you are in Australia. If you say this is nothing new in your culture, then I accept that, and perhaps the American media was just behind.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Yarb]

I am 43 and have been Catholic, and a news junkie, for 20 years and never, never before heard the term Pope referred to anyone accept the Pontiff.

But, I’m in America and you are in Australia. If you say this is nothing new in your culture, then I accept that, and perhaps the American media was just behind.

Thanks for the clarification.

It’s nothing new in America either. The Coptic pope has been called that for centuries throughout the English-speaking world, and in other European languages he’s been called by the same word used for the Roman pontiff as well. I’m 57 and American and I’ve been accustomed to this for decades. If you haven’t heard it, maybe you’ve never read anything about the Coptic Church before.

 

[Yarb]

I guess my point is this. That no one ever calls him “Pope”. They may call him something in another language that translates into the same words that Pope translates to. And it may have the same meaning. But no one actually calls this man “Pope” except in the American secular media, now all of a sudden everyone is calling him Pope. Hmm. I guess I’m having a hard time understanding why now we are referring to the Coptic Patriarch by a term from a dead language that is only used in and been preserved by the Roman Catholic church. And using the term we use and have always used to refer to the one and only rock and vicar of Christ the Bishop of Rome? I suspect the reason the media decided to do this is to diminish the Pontif by making this Coptic Patriarch look as if he is equal to THE POPE. And he’s not

This is why I have a problem with it…

There’s nothing sudden about it and it’s not in the least restricted to America, and it ante-dates the media as we now know them. You just haven’t read about this topic.