2 Questions on Apostolic Succession

[Hegesippus]

Fr Ambrose:

But Saint Kosmas, a simple Greek preacher during the time of the Muslim dhimmitude, does NOT say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell.

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics and schismatics *are *bound for eternal fire.

Is a simple saint, official Orthodox teaching? Father, in my often wrong opinion, you are in rare form. Maybe it is because you have crept away from the Eastern forum. But you came here accusing someone of saying something they did not say, read something into an encyclicle, and now are on a papal bull, without ever falsely apologising for being wrong.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Hegesippus:

Is a simple saint, official Orthodox teaching? Father, in my often wrong opinion, you are in rare form. Maybe it is because you have crept away from the Eastern forum. But you came here accusing someone of saying something they did not say, read something into an encyclicle, and now are on a papal bull, without ever falsely apologising for being wrong.

I was directed here to read messages No. 16, 17 and 18. This I did and was appalled at the attitude towards the Orthodox Church of which the recent Popes themselves speak with such love and respect. It was named as a false religion and the work of Satan. Those who wish to defend those who wrote such words may do so of course but they are not in accord with the teachings of Pope Benedict and the Magisterium.

Anyway, it has been far too distressing on this thread… back to other matters… Valete!

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fr Ambrose:

I quoted Pope Gregory XVI AND it was in support of JSmitty’s contention. Would you explain how that is attacking Gregory VXI?

Anyone that reads this thread KNOWS that my contention was never “False religions worship the Devil.” Also, I googled that encyclical and could not find it in it’s entirety. I would appreciate a link.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Fr Ambrose:

It was named as a false religion and the work of Satan.

Quit lying! Orthodoxy was NOT named as a false religion but the *schism * WAS named as the work of Satan. Do you disagree with that?

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

But Saint Kosmas, a simple Greek preacher during the time of the Muslim dhimmitude, does NOT say that heretics and schismatics are going to hell.

Pope Eugene, on the other hand, from the powerful height of his papal throne, teaches very clearly that heretics and schismatics *are *bound for eternal fire.

“Only good and holy” people go to heaven. This is obvious. Or does Orthodoxy teach that the “bad and unholy” as we non-Orthodox are still go to heaven?

I see the kinds of deception about the Church like your fake quote on that forum all the time. Why do you need to use a fake quote to support your position? Or to use mocking expressions like “FROM THE POWERFUL HEIGHT OF HIS PAPAL THRONE”!!! Your modus operandi does not go unnoticed, just usually unmentioned.

This is worse than imagined. I see no apology is forthcoming for the fake quote you attributed to Pope Gregory XVI. :tsktsk:

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

Sorry, I should not have assumed that the Apologetics Forum has as much knowledge about this as the Eastern Christianity Forum where this statement of Pope Eugene’s has been discussed many times. It comes from the Bull Cantate Domino in which Pope Eugene IV, prematurely, announced the union of the Catholic, Orthodox, Armenian and Coptic Churches. In the process he condemned to hell all those who refused it.

Should we take this discussion over to the Eastern Christianity Forum, if anybody has any interest?

Ha! Now Pope Eugene is being held to the fire since Pope Gregory XVI didn’t really say “false religions worship the devil”!

http://bestsmileys.com/dancing/3.gif Shimmying on over to Pope Eugene when the Pope Gregory XVI quote proved to be a fraud.

I see nothing in the quote you provided from Pope Eugene that can’t be found in Orthodoxy as well.

Should we take this discussion over to the Eastern Christianity Forum, if anybody has any interest.

Well, I would be more interested in a thread on the Eastern Orthodox forum about the use of fake quotes to indict popes and Catholicism and other ways and means of deception.

Then we can move to your new topic of Pope Eugene.

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

I was directed here to read messages No. 16, 17 and 18.

By the other Orthodox on your site? They can’t come themselves? Or are you “first among equals” over there, speaking as the representative?

This I did and was appalled at the attitude towards the Orthodox Church of which the recent Popes themselves speak with such love and respect.

Appalled at what attitude about the Orthodox Church? The attitude that the division of Christianity is the work of the devil? So, the divisions in Christianity are the work of God according to Orthodoxy?

And the attitude that Orthodoxy is not a false religion? How is that appalling - to state that Orthodoxy is *not *a false religion?

What *is *appalling is someone who comes over and gives a fake quote about Pope Gregory XVI and does not apologize.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

“Only good and holy” people go to heaven. This is obvious. Or does Orthodoxy teach that the “bad and unholy” as we non-Orthodox are still go to heaven?

I would answer that only God may decide who goes to heaven and those who appear “good and holy” may really be the opposite and vice versa for the “bad and unholy.”

I see the kinds of deception about the Church like your fake quote on that forum all the time. Why do you need to use a fake quote to support your position? Or to use mocking expressions like “FROM THE POWERFUL HEIGHT OF HIS PAPAL THRONE”!!! Your modus operandi does not go unnoticed, just usually unmentioned.

This is worse than imagined. I see no apology is forthcoming for the fake quote you attributed to Pope Gregory XVI. :tsktsk:

I have had that quote on my machine for some time and I think it came from someone’s message in the Eastern Christianity section where it was not challenged or I would have remembered the challenge.

I see that we have access to the Encyclical on the EWTN site but someone here has mentioned that they have not found the full and complete encyclical. Are they referring to the EWTN version and if it is not the full Encyclical where may we find it please? Before apologising for sending, in innocence, what is claimed to be a false quote I want proof that we are reading the entire Encylical. Does that seem reasonable?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

JSmitty2005:

Quit lying! Orthodoxy was NOT named as a false religion but the *schism *WAS named as the work of Satan. Do you disagree with that?

I am NOT lying, JSmitty. You DID call Orthodox a false religion.

This is what you wrote in message No. 16

In fact, all false religions are the work of Satan - Judaism, Freemasonry, Islam, Protestantism, etc.

Fredricks then asks you in message No. 17 if you include Orthodoxy in the false religions which are the work of Satan

Fredricks:

Orthodoxy?
sedevacantists?

And you reply in message No. 18 that of course Orthodoxy is included among the false religions which are the work of Satan

Of course!

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

I see nothing in the quote you provided from Pope Eugene that can’t be found in Orthodoxy as well.

If you have seen statements or encyclicals from the Patriarchs or bishops of Orthodox Churches which agree with Pope Eugene’s that heretics and schismatics go into the eternal fire, please let us see them.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

Then we can move to your new topic of Pope Eugene.

Pope Eugene’s condemnation of heretics and schismatics, using his power of binding and loosing, has been well discussed on the Eastern Christianity forum. A small search on his name will turn up many messages.

 

[mosher]

Fr Ambrose:

If you have seen statements or encyclicals from the Patriarchs or bishops of Orthodox Churches which agree with Pope Eugene’s that heretics and schismatics go into the eternal fire, please let us see them.

Of course heretics, schismatics, and apostates go to hell - the question is the last part of decleration of Pope Eugene. If event ot he moment of death they perpetuate in that sin then they cannot enter heaven. However, if they reconsile even at the moment of death by perfect contrition or a special grace then they are not necessarily condemned to hell. This is basic. Further Trent saw fit to formally include levels of ignorance in salvation issues relying on the mercy and justice of God. Thus, as a direct result one cannot be held accountable for that which one does not know. Hence the difference (not just distinction) between a material and a formal heretic. This discussion is tiresome.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

If you have seen statements or encyclicals from the Patriarchs or bishops of Orthodox Churches which agree with Pope Eugene’s that heretics and schismatics go into the eternal fire, please let us see them.

You are the one who has said the Orthodox teach that Arius is in hell.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Eden:

And the attitude that Orthodoxy is not a false religion? How is that appalling - to state that Orthodoxy is *not *a false religion?

It was stated very unambiguously by JSmitty that Orthodoxy is among "all false religions are the work of Satan."

Read messages 16, 17 and 18.

I would think an apology ought to be forthcoming…

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

jimmy:

You are the one who has said the Orthodox teach that Arius is in hell.

And tell me, have you forgotten that I pointed out that this is the ONLY person about whom the Orthodox Church has made such a judgement. Tell me honestly, jimmy, did you remember that very important qualifier when you wrote your message a minute ago?

Did you remember that it was in the context of Catholics saying that Judas is in hell -something the Orthodox will not say.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

It was stated very unambiguosly by JSmitty that Orthodoxy is among "all false religions are the work of Satan."

Read messages 16, 17 and 18.

I would think an apology ought to be forthcoming…

Why? I think you should apologize for every time you have ever hinted that the Catholic Church has made an error. The EO turns people off with this superiority complex. For some reason you have this idea that Catholics should say we are false and you are true.

 

[jimmy]

Fr Ambrose:

And tell me, have you forgotten that I pointed out that this is the ONLY person about whom the Orthodox Church has made such a judgement. Tell me honestly, jimmy, did you remember that very important qualifier when you wrote your message a minute ago?

Did you remember that it was in the context of Catholics saying that Judas is in hell -something the Orthodox will not say.

I remembered it. It doesn’t change a thing; you still judge him to be in hell. Actually from what I recall Judas was not a part of the discussion. Catholics do not necessarily say Judas is in hell, they leave it to God. We don’t say that Arius is in hell either. But it is safe for an individual Catholic to say that Judas is in hell because Christ tells him it would be better that he never was born. Your church has judged a man to hell.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Fr Ambrose:

Did you remember that it was in the context of Catholics saying that Judas is in hell -something the Orthodox will not say.

Pax tecum!

As far as I know, the Catholic Church has no stance on where Judas is. There certainly are individual Catholics who do, and I am sure there are certainly individual Orthodox who do as well.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[chrisb]

Fr Ambrose:

Pope Eugene’s condemnation of heretics and schismatics, using his power of binding and loosing, has been well discussed on the Eastern Christianity forum. A small search on his name will turn up many messages.

Grace and Peace Father Ambrose,

Is it of any importance that our Blessed John Paul II used his power of binding and loosing to ‘lift’ all anathamas against all our Orthodox Brothers and Sisters or is Pope Eugene more important to discuss at this point in relations with our Eastern Brothers and Sisters?

Just curious.

Peace and God Bless you Father.

 

[Eden]

Fr Ambrose:

It was stated very unambiguously by JSmitty that Orthodoxy is among "all false religions are the work of Satan."

Read messages 16, 17 and 18.

I would think an apology ought to be forthcoming…

Look what was written before you even got here-

JSMITTY2005: Actually, let me clarify. I had made reference to “false religions” and “the work of Satan.” Clearly such schisms are “the work of Satan.” However, because they hold to the Catholic Faith without drifting into heresy, they cannot be said to be “false religions.”

How long are you going to continue to dodge the inexcusable action on your part of using a fake quote and attributing it to a pope? How long? Eternity?

What is the Orthodox view on the division of Christianity again? That divisions in Christianity are not the work of satan but the work of God. O.K. Please tell me about the Orthodox and how they think God creates divisions amongst us. That would make a great thread on the Eastern Christianity forum, I think. Since I am not familiar with the Orthodox view that division does not come from satan but from God.