2 Questions on the Early Church and Scripture

[Pat_De]

That is another man-made tradition.

No where in Scripture does it say “Scripture will always verify itself”.

It’s a man-made, non-biblical tradition that has been around for a few decades or so, but it has no foundation in Scripture whatsoever.

That is the supernatural nature of Scripture, but the fact and the truth remains whether you believe it or not that God will verify what He has said and meant by what He has said and meant elsewhere in Scripture. Just as a child learns by repetition, adults as well, God knows the Christian needs that repetition to learn and to understand. Look at Israel, which God said is for our example to learn from and what did Israel do over and over and over, which is God driving home a point using repetition. What is prophecy in the OT fulfilled in the OT but a form of repetition or Scripture verifying Scripture. Compare Psalm 19 to Psalm 119, repetition upon repetition concerning the value of Scripture.

Want to talk about making something up; "it has been around for a few decades or so", you made that up completely off the top of your head.

All I know is that those that belong to Christ have come to Him because He first moved in the heart to reveal not only the law written in the heart and how one falls short of His holy and perfect standards, but also that one has no resource within oneself to do anything about it. So upon hearing the Gospel and believing that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God, then one receives the Holy Spirit of promise and is sealed till full redemption. The outward proof of this transformation will be shown in thought, word and deed and I might also add chastisement for the Lord chastens His own just as a parent does to their child for their own good. This is what Jesus means when He said deny yourself; you are dead to self and alive in Christ, which is the only way to pick up ones cross daily and follow Him. It is also what Paul spoke of concerning the old man is dead and the new one is alive in Christ. This theme is repeated throughout the NT through the use of repetition.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, Pat, can you tell me what verse in Scripture says “Scripture will always verify itself”?

Chapter and verse, please!

That is the supernatural nature of Scripture, but the fact and the truth remains whether you believe it or not that God will verify what He has said and meant by what He has said and meant elsewhere in Scripture. Just as a child learns by repetition, adults as well, God knows the Christian needs that repetition to learn and to understand. Look at Israel, which God said is for our example to learn from and what did Israel do over and over and over, which is God driving home a point using repetition. What is prophecy in the OT fulfilled in the OT but a form of repetition or Scripture verifying Scripture. Compare Psalm 19 to Psalm 119, repetition upon repetition concerning the value of Scripture.

Want to talk about making something up; "it has been around for a few decades or so", you made that up completely off the top of your head.

All I know is that those that belong to Christ have come to Him because He first moved in the heart to reveal not only the law written in the heart and how one falls short of His holy and perfect standards, but also that one has no resource within oneself to do anything about it. So upon hearing the Gospel and believing that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God, then one receives the Holy Spirit of promise and is sealed till full redemption. The outward proof of this transformation will be shown in thought, word and deed and I might also add chastisement for the Lord chastens His own just as a parent does to their child for their own good. This is what Jesus means when He said deny yourself; you are dead to self and alive in Christ, which is the only way to pick up ones cross daily and follow Him. It is also what Paul spoke of concerning the old man is dead and the new one is alive in Christ. This theme is repeated throughout the NT through the use of repetition.

 

[Pat_De]

Or, I argue against what you see as the proper understanding of the Word of God.
If I agree with you then I am not arguing aginst the Word of God, but it I disagree with you, then I am arguing against the Word of God.

Please note here, that I am not saying there isn’t some merit to your line of reasoning and I am sure that you believe that line of reasoning to be sound and given of the Holy Spirit.
… BUT… I (and The Church) have a line of reasoning and we too believe that our reasoning is sound and given of The Holy Spirit.

So - What are we to do when two Christians, or two groups of Christians, disagree with each other, particularly on a matter of salvic importance. Please go to The Word and find for me a solution. How are we, who are bible believing servants of Christ, to amicably and humbly settle this matter in Truth so that Unity may be maintained?

I eagerly await your response.

Peace
James

When you have to opposing views based on doctrine there is no reconciliation; one is correct and the other is not or both are incorrect because both cannot be correct. Unity is a different issue altogether and John 17 is the best description of what Christian unity is and what it is not.

I would also say as I mentioned before I am not sure that this is a salvation issue or not because it depends on the persons reasoning as to why they believe water baptism is necessary for salvation. If it is the idea that I add a little to the salvation pot and God adds His part and together one gets saved, then that formula is contrary to Scripture and nullifies the grace of God. For it is the power of God alone unto salvation least anyone should boast.

 

[PRmerger]

Want to talk about making something up; "it has been around for a few decades or so", you made that up completely off the top of your head.

Can you provide a quote from an early Christian–in the 1st century, or in the 10th century, or even in the 13th century–that proclaims this non-Scriptural doctrine that “Scripture verifies itself”.

 

[Pat_De]

Well, Pat, can you tell me what verse in Scripture says “Scripture will always verify itself”?

Chapter and verse, please!

I already answered the question sufficiently for the logical and rational mind. You will not find the phrase verbatim, but I have already shown it is the truth; you just chose not to believe it and that is your prerogative.

Using your rationale your Church doesn’t exist, the Trinity doesn’t exist, no other church exist except those mentioned in Scripture, which have long disappeared. Although it seems to me, if I recall, one church mentioned in Scripture as a specific region may still exist, but the true church, yet to be revealed, has existed since the day of Pentecost.

 

[Pat_De]

Can you provide a quote from an early Christian–in the 1st century, or in the 10th century, or even in the 13th century–that proclaims this non-Scriptural doctrine that “Scripture verifies itself”.

That would be irrelevant to the facts; try reading the Bible and see if it is not true.

 

[PRmerger]

I already answered the question sufficiently for the logical and rational mind. You will not find the phrase verbatim, but I have already shown it is the truth; you just chose not to believe it and that is your prerogative.

Using your rationale your Church doesn’t exist, the Trinity doesn’t exist, no other church exist except those mentioned in Scripture, which have long disappeared. Although it seems to me, if I recall, one church mentioned in Scripture as a specific region may still exist, but the true church, yet to be revealed, has existed since the day of Pentecost.

Yet not a single Scripture verse in your answer? How curious!

Conclusion: “Scripture will verify itself” is not found in Scripture.

[SIGN]It is a man-made tradition. [/SIGN]

 

[PRmerger]

That would be irrelevant to the facts; try reading the Bible and see if it is not true.

Since it’s NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE and NOT FOUND in any of the teachings of the early Christians, the conclusion is: it’s been made up by a fallible man.

 

[PRmerger]

Using your rationale your Church doesn’t exist, the Trinity doesn’t exist, no other church exist except those mentioned in Scripture, which have long disappeared.

This is a great example of why “it has to be found in the Bible for me to believe it” is a self-contradictory doctrine.

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No where does Scripture say that. ***

Catholicism, however, is** not self-contradictory**, for we believe what is God’s Word–His entire revelation as proclaimed by the teaching of the Apostles.

 

[PRmerger]

Scripture will always verify itself

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15:29[/BIBLEDRB]

What other verse in Scripture verifies this “baptism of the dead”, Pat?

 

[JRKH]

When you have to opposing views based on doctrine there is no reconciliation; one is correct and the other is not or both are incorrect because both cannot be correct. Unity is a different issue altogether and John 17 is the best description of what Christian unity is and what it is not.
(Snip)

You did not answer my question or provide the Scripture based solution for what to do when two, well meaning and devout Christians have different and opposing views on a particular subject.

I fully agree that when there are opposing views on doctrine one is correct and the other is wrong. (though depending on the complexity of the issue both opinions may contain elements of truth and error)

Jesus recognized this and provided the method of solution, by His own words, AND that method is demonstrated quite clearly in Scripture.
This solution provides, and demonstrates a way to sort through the issue AND maintain unity.

This is why I asked you to go to The Word and find the method by which our dillema could be resolved instead of constantly arguing back and forth with no way to finally settle the matter.
Care to take a look at Scripture and see what it says about resolving these matters?

Peace
James

 

[twinc]

of course in this endless nonsense,error is added to error and confusion to confusion and hence any chance of unity and truth is pushed further and further away - so firstly the Church does not teach what some mistakenly think she does for the Chuirch teaches as Paul taught that “by grace[and mercy]through faith we are justified and saved” - it seems that many Protestants and Catholics would regard Paul as a protestant and James as a Catholic - it does seem that James was not a fully converted/convinced Christian when he wrote his epistle and still held to his jewish beliefs in works - in fact he along with his other brethren thought Jesus was a nutter[mad] and it was just before he was hurled to his death that he finally accepted and declared that Jesus was the door viz way - until that moment it seems he was acceptable to the Jews as the Bishop of Jerusalem and only then did he become a true christian,martyr and saint - twinc

 

[twinc]

You did not answer my question or provide the Scripture based solution for what to do when two, well meaning and devout Christians have different and opposing views on a particular subject.

I fully agree that when there are opposing views on doctrine one is correct and the other is wrong. (though depending on the complexity of the issue both opinions may contain elements of truth and error)

Jesus recognized this and provided the method of solution, by His own words, AND that method is demonstrated quite clearly in Scripture.
This solution provides, and demonstrates a way to sort through the issue AND maintain unity.

This is why I asked you to go to The Word and find the method by which our dillema could be resolved instead of constantly arguing back and forth with no way to finally settle the matter.
Care to take a look at Scripture and see what it says about resolving these matters?

Peace
James

what scripture says about resolving this matter is be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things be so - what would be the sense in searching the scriptures if they could not reveal if these things be so - twinc

 

[Pat_De]

This is a great example of why “it has to be found in the Bible for me to believe it” is a self-contradictory doctrine.

---

No where does Scripture say that. ***

Catholicism, however, is** not self-contradictory**, for we believe what is God’s Word–His entire revelation as proclaimed by the teaching of the Apostles.

I would believe you if you could demonstrate you have any real knowledge of Scripture. You are only able to parrot that which you are told to parrot. Whereas Scripture clearly teaches that only those that have received the Holy Spirit can comprehend Scripture and this is not restricted to a single group or authority , but down to the personal and individual level. Since you want Scripture read Psalm 119 for starters if you do not believe or the truncated version of Psalm 19 or try the book of Isaiah or Romans 3, 6, 8, 10 Galatians 3 - take your pick.

Where in Scripture does it say “Catholicism” and “that His entire revelation as proclaimed by the teaching of the Apostles.” Verse(s) please. See how your “rational/logic” works against you? What about the teaching of the prophets and Moses or the Psalmists or Jesus?

Anyway we are both guilty of digressing and getting too far of this topic so probably an indicator that it is time to move to a different subject matter altogether; so hope to see you around.

 

[Pat_De]

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 15:29[/BIBLEDRB]

What other verse in Scripture verifies this “baptism of the dead”, Pat?

You make the premise that Paul is speaking of water baptism for the dead as some type of doctrine and you are asking me to show something that doesn’t exist in any doctrine of Scripture and showing something that doesn’t exist is impossible.

If you were to look at various interpretations of that specific passage of Scripture you would find literally hundreds of interpretations because it is at the surface on of the most obscure passages in all of Scripture. So whoever gave you the idea to toss this particular verse; they, like you, believe you have proven something which would be what? God only knows. So the first thing in approaching such a passage is to throw out the foolishness of some foreign doctrine, which is heresy and was proclaimed heresy by 2 old church fathers Cerenthand and Marcien, which is the Mormon belief in baptizing the dead and was deemed a heresy then as it would be now.

The hope of the Christian is being resurrected, doctrine of resurrection which is our hope and promise and the key to the verse you are looking at resides in verse 32 " If the dead are not raised, LET US EAT AND DRINK, FOR TOMORROW WE DIE." If there is no hope for resurrection of the dead, then their is no hope for reunion with other who are dead in Christ, then what is the point of being Christian?

James Boyer, takes this view as shown in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 15 says, “the hope of the resurrection is held by saved people was after they died a powerful incentive to their loved ones still living to be saved and baptized.”

His view, James Boyer, accords with what we know to be true and what we know to be heresy, which would be the baptism of the dead!

So from that perspective you need only look at David and when His first son with Bathsheba died.

---

21 Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, `Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ 23 “But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” ***

David clearly is showing his hope and knowledge in the resurrection and reunion with the child.

Perhaps this was something that the Corinthians were practicing based on corrupt company they were keeping as the verses follow could indicate. Could also be true that further reading and studying of Scripture is necessary as well, but one thing is certain that the context of the passages in general speak to the doctrine of the resurrection and salvation is always associated with water baptism, not in that it saves, but in that it is commanded after receiving the Holy Spirit, which is the point of ones salvation.

 

[Pat_De]

You did not answer my question or provide the Scripture based solution for what to do when two, well meaning and devout Christians have different and opposing views on a particular subject.

I fully agree that when there are opposing views on doctrine one is correct and the other is wrong. (though depending on the complexity of the issue both opinions may contain elements of truth and error)

Jesus recognized this and provided the method of solution, by His own words, AND that method is demonstrated quite clearly in Scripture.
This solution provides, and demonstrates a way to sort through the issue AND maintain unity.

This is why I asked you to go to The Word and find the method by which our dillema could be resolved instead of constantly arguing back and forth with no way to finally settle the matter.
Care to take a look at Scripture and see what it says about resolving these matters?

Peace
James

This will be good I’m quite certain; so don’t hold me in suspense; let’s see what Jesus said-tell me. To make clarification I said one is right and the other is wrong OR both are incorrect, but based on the evidence in Scripture concerning water baptism I am correct and you are wrong.

 

[Pat_De]

what scripture says about resolving this matter is be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things be so - what would be the sense in searching the scriptures if they could not reveal if these things be so - twinc

LOL great point and can’t believe I overlooked that particular verse since that is what I try to do; particularly on difficult issues, which water baptism is not.

 

[PRmerger]

I would believe you if you could demonstrate you have any real knowledge of Scripture.

Yet you cannot provide any Scripture verse that says “Scripture verifies itself”?

I can tell you this: you can look from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find it anywhere.

It is a man-made tradition that you’ve succumbed to.

Since you want Scripture read Psalm 119 for starters if you do not believe or the truncated version of Psalm 19 or try the book of Isaiah or Romans 3, 6, 8, 10 Galatians 3 - take your pick.

Beautiful verses, all! But, yet, not a single one says that Scripture interprets itself.

Where in Scripture does it say “Catholicism” and “that His entire revelation as proclaimed by the teaching of the Apostles.” Verse(s) please. See how your “rational/logic” works against you? What about the teaching of the prophets and Moses or the Psalmists or Jesus?

That’s why the CC teaches that Scripture alone is not sufficient. It is profitable and useful, and the Word of God, but it is not sufficient.

It is the CC which has taken the entire Revelation of God and presented it to you.

Anyway we are both guilty of digressing and getting too far of this topic so probably an indicator that it is time to move to a different subject matter altogether; so hope to see you around.

Again, you leave, Pat, when the Truth has been presented to you.

 

[JRKH]

what scripture says about resolving this matter is be like the Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things be so - what would be the sense in searching the scriptures if they could not reveal if these things be so - twinc

Aaahhhh - -
You raise a good point.
“What would be the sense in searching scripture if they could not reveal if these things are so”…
The Holy Spirit should reveal the same Truth to all should he not?

Then what is to be done when one group of Early Christians “searches Scripture” and determines that it reveals A and another Gorup of Early Christians “searches Scripture” and determines that it reveals “Not A”.
Then members of each community move to the other’s community suddenly they find themselves among brothers that believe the opposite of what they have been taught - Both based on Scripture.
This is what happened to the Antioch Christians when some folks came up from Jerusalem.

Now - The question is, How was this resolved. HOw did Jesus tell us to resolve such matters?

 

[JRKH]

This will be good I’m quite certain; so don’t hold me in suspense; let’s see what Jesus said-tell me. To make clarification I said one is right and the other is wrong OR both are incorrect, but based on the evidence in Scripture concerning water baptism I am correct and you are wrong.

Up until now I have enjoyed our conversation, but I must admit that your opening comment seems to carry a rather negative and close minded attitude. If I am interpreting this wrong, please forgive me.

However, since you choose not to go to The Word yourself, as the Bereans did, I will provide you with the passage. It is in Mt 18: 15-18. This contains the method by which conflicts may be resolved. Now - Before you claim that this applies to “sin” (if your brother sins…), I will ask you this question. Is spreading a false Gospel a sin??
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, **tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. **18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

Here we have Christ’s own Words telling us that if we cannot resolve a matter personally and informally, then we should present it to The Church and be humble enough to submit to the decision of The Church.

Now we see this played out in Acts 15 where the Christians in Antioch were taught one thing by St Paul, and then were upset by the Christians from Jerusalem who were taught another. This issue was so complex and divisive that not even St Paul Himself, chosen personally by Christ and a star student of a great Rabbi, was able to resolve it.
So - What did they do? They took it to The Church. The result was the Council of Jerusalem where the matter was placed before the elders of The Church including Peter and James.
The results of this council settled the matter, not just for Jerusalem and Antioch, but for the Church universal.
The Church has used such councils from that day to this to resolve many matters of doctrinal dispute (like the baptism issue) as well as to combat heresy. Depending on the issues, the councils might be more or less formal, they might be regional, diocesan, or it might be a full blown ecumenical council.
But whatever size or whatever issues, each one is based upon and built upon the biblical intsructions of Christ in Mt 18 and the example spelled out in Acts.

Therefore, whenever I see a thread like this one, where the two sides are at a “loggerhed”, I feel that it is appropriate to suggest that, rather than continue a duscussion that is going nowhere and both sides have thoroughly expressed their postion, we should “tell it to The Church” and be willing to submit to her decision in humility as we would to Christ Himself.

The next objection that generally comes from this line of discussion is how one defines “Church”. Well I think that Jesus covered that pretty well too. The term Church is used in the Gospels exactly twice. Each time by Jesus himself, and Each time connected with the granting of authority. Mt 16: 17-19 and Mt 18:15-18. The authority granted is to “Bind and Loose…Whatever”.
So while “Church” or “ecclesia” is rightly translated “community” such translation does not remove, or preclude authority.

Now I recognize that you will most likely not accept this at face value. You have been taught to reject any “earthly” authority and yet, by faith, you do. You accept the earthly authroity of those in the 16th Century who told you to reject earthly authority. Christ did not tell you this or He would never have spoken or caused to be written Mt 18:15-18. St Paul does not tell you this or he would not have refered the circumcision matter to the Jerusalem council. Nor would He have called The Church, “The Pillar and Bulwark of Truth”.

I ask that only that you ponder this matter in your heart.

Peace
James