2 Questions on the Early Church and Scripture

[PRmerger]

you have started off with an absurdity and finished up with an absurdity naturally - we are told and advised by Christ,St.Paul and the Church to"search the scriptures to see if these things be so" - so there would be no sense in searching the scriptures -twinc

It is indeed commanded of Catholics to search the Scriptures. However, when 2 or 3 disagree, what do the Scriptures say to do?

What is it that the Scriptures say should be the norm and foundation for all Truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Kkoleon: You didn’t quote Peter correctly! You said where Baptism saves us. The next words is ( not to the filth of the flesh) but an answer to a good conscience. Jerry kelso

Yet clearly baptism saves, yes?

 

[twinc]

It is indeed commanded of Catholics to search the Scriptures. However, when 2 or 3 disagree, what do the Scriptures say to do?

What is it that the Scriptures say should be the norm and foundation for all Truth?

1/The protestants and others do do just that and take it to their Church

2/Their Church

twinc

 

[twinc]

Exactly. It demonstrates that the man-made tradition that “Scripture must verify itself” is clearly false.

not at all exactly - scripture does not need to verify itself where no verification is required or called for - twinc

 

[twinc]

Absolutely not–Scripture can not be sufficient to bring a person to salvation. How was it, then, that the Good Thief was saved, without Scripture?

How is it that those who have read Scripture are* not *saved?

How is it that for the first 4 centuries when there was no Bible that people were getting “saved” right and left?

 

[twinc]

twinc:
eternally twisting and adding or subtracting - it says sufficient and the good news it proclaims is believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved - this the good thief did and so did [or must have done]the thousands,you refer to, who heard it and accepted it - btw not the Bible as we have it now but the gospel or good news was in circulation from the start and arrived in a written format and was in circulation here in Britain within only a year or two of our Lord’s resurrection - stop seeing problems or making them when and where there are no such problems - twinc

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by PRmerger
It is indeed commanded of Catholics to search the Scriptures. However, when 2 or 3 disagree, what do the Scriptures say to do?

And yet Scripture does not say to tell it to “their church”, or “your church” or “a church” but rather to, “…tell it to the church…”
Christ prayed for unity, so their should not be any “your” church or “their” church.

So let us expand a bit on the when two or three disagree principle. If the local “church/ekklesia/community” in City A disagrees with the local “church/ekklesia/community” in City B, what does Scripture tell us should be done?

Peace
James

 

[twinc]

And yet Scripture does not say to tell it to “their church”, or “your church” or “a church” but rather to, “…tell it to the church…”
Christ prayed for unity, so their should not be any “your” church or “their” church.

So let us expand a bit on the when two or three disagree principle. If the local “church/ekklesia/community” in City A disagrees with the local “church/ekklesia/community” in City B, what does Scripture tell us should be done?

Peace
James

here we go expanding or contracting = adding or subtracting = forbidden = stick with the original which you rightly quoted = 2 or 3 = not the whole community = twinc

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

here we go expanding or contracting = adding or subtracting = forbidden = stick with the original which you rightly quoted = 2 or 3 = not the whole community = twinc

1)Noone is expanding or contracting anything biblically. JRKH was giving an example to illuminate the point he was making. Stop reacting to what is said and try to understand what is being said. I am not asking that you believe what we teach (odd to say that to a Catholic…) but at least make the attempt to understand what is being said and why .

2)So when you disagree with me on baptism (you being Catholic, me being Catholic) to whom should we go?

When two evangelicals disagree on baptism to whom should they go?

Both Churches will give very different responses to any disagreement regarding baptism. Since we know that Christ is THE TRUTH, which is perfect, there cannot be two divergent/discordant responses. ONE answer is the truth, correct?

Therefore the statement you made above about going to “their church” cannot be accurate since any church without a hierarchical structure founded upon apostolic succession may, in good conscience, teach whatever the opinion of the local pastor is on any issue. And if they may teach whatever the opinion of the local pastor as truth and two pastors disagree, that brings doubt as to who is correct. Since Christ is the Truth, there can be only one true answer to any theological disagreement, Christ. Therefore, search out that church which teaches what the apostles taught, as evidenced in the Bible, the Church fathers, the Didache (since it is the earliest explanation of worship practices we have), and constantly kept traditions, since every church (regardless of whether they want to admit it or not) teach man-made traditions.

FSC

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
And yet Scripture does not say to tell it to “their church”, or “your church” or “a church” but rather to, “…tell it to the church…”
Christ prayed for unity, so their should not be any “your” church or “their” church.

No expansion or contraction is involved here at all. Your reaction, calling it adding or subracting = forbidden does not fly because Scripture Specifically TELLS us what to do when two communites disagree. It’s right there in the Holy Scriptures. Read Acts 15.
Now, once we know how to deal biblically with individuals who err and we know how to deal biblically with two communites who disagree, it is a simple repeating of this same principle to larger and larger groups of communities/regions etc. until a single unified, spirit guided teaching is understood by the Universal Church.
Thus the unity that Christ Prayed for is maintained.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

1/The protestants and others do do just that and take it to their Church

2/Their Church

twinc

Fair enough.

We’re all in agreement, then, that the Bible is not the sure norm for understanding what God has revealed?

 

[PRmerger]

not at all exactly - scripture does not need to verify itself where no verification is required or called for - twinc

And where does Scripture tell us which verses require verification?

 

[PRmerger]

eternally twisting and adding or subtracting - it says sufficient

It does? It says Scripture is “sufficient”? Where?

btw not the Bible as we have it now

Indeed.

but the gospel or good news was in circulation from the start and arrived in a written format and was in circulation here in Britain within only a year or two of our Lord’s resurrection - stop seeing problems or making them when and where there are no such problems - twinc

Did you know that there were over hundreds of different manuscripts/texts that were “in circulation” that spoke about the life of Christ and the early Christians? It wasn’t until the Catholic Church, in the 4th century, codified this book and told you that the Gospel of Thomas was not inspired and that the Gospel of Mark was.

See this list of the many early “Christian” writings that were considered:

30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
source

 

[twinc]

It does? It says Scripture is “sufficient”? Where?

Indeed.

Did you know that there were over hundreds of different manuscripts/texts that were “in circulation” that spoke about the life of Christ and the early Christians? It wasn’t until the Catholic Church, in the 4th century, codified this book and told you that the Gospel of Thomas was not inspired and that the Gospel of Mark was.

See this list of the many early “Christian” writings that were considered:

30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
source

here we go again - off at all sorts of tangents and endless merry go rounds and even when unseated off one horse mounting another - so who guided the writings up until the fourth century other than it was understood and later compiled into a Bible viz "if anyone see Gal.1:8-9} - btw if I recall correctly it was truly “The Church” that compiled the Bible,but for some unknown reason you deliberately insert Catholic - twinc

 

[PRmerger]

here we go again - off at all sorts of tangents and endless merry go rounds and even when unseated off one horse mounting another - so who guided the writings up until the fourth century other than it was understood and later compiled into a Bible viz "if anyone [see Gal.1:8-9} - twinc

Firstly, just so we don’t go off on tangents without your answering this question: how do you know what verses in Scripture require verification and what doesn’t.

Secondly, it was the Catholic Church which told you that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos and the Gospel of Thomas is not. Each and every time you quote Scripture you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the CC, and you are acknowledging that you give authority to Sacred Tradition.
[/quote]

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

here we go again - off at all sorts of tangents and endless merry go rounds and even when unseated off one horse mounting another

Who was unseated off what horse? And, ftr, this is not a tangent. It is very relevant to the discussion at hand. I am confused why you think it is something else…

so who guided the writings up until the fourth century other than it was understood and later compiled into a Bible viz "if anyone [see Gal.1:8-9} -

And who teaches a Gospel different than the one received from the Apostles? It aint the Catholic church, I can tell you that. There is too much evidence that it teaches the same thing now as it did then.

btw if I recall correctly it was truly “The Church” that compiled the Bible,but for some unknown reason you deliberately insert Catholic - twinc

Because that was all that existed at the time, the one, holy, CATHOLIC, and apostolic Church. Where is the confusion here?

FSC
[/quote]

 

[PRmerger]

btw if I recall correctly it was truly “The Church” that compiled the Bible,but for some unknown reason you deliberately insert Catholic - twinc

It was a church that had a pope and bishops and councils and celebrated the Eucharist…

Sounds pretty Catholic to me, eh?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Secondly, it was the Catholic Church which told you that the Gospel of Mark is theopneustos and the Gospel of Thomas is not. Each and every time you quote Scripture you are giving tacit approval to the authority of the CC, and you are acknowledging that you give authority to Sacred Tradition.

DING DING DING!!! We got a winner!!!

 

[PRmerger]

DING DING DING!!! We got a winner!!!

shaw:

 

[twinc]

so up to the 4th century everyone managed quite well without a Bible and in fact its only quite recently that the Bible is in general circulation and even now many do not have a Bible which was once on the index because a few protestants sought to finance and distribute the good news - the bad news it seems is ding dong bell,protestants are going to hell only Catholics in heaven - twinc