2012 Republican Presidential Nomination

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Pro-life is important but three quick points.
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 (1) Pro-life, to me, means more than opposing abortions. I always have been amazed that some rabid pro-life Catholics can beat the war drums loudly when thousands of innocent people are killed, including many babies in the womb. 

 (2) There are cases when I believe that abortion may be justified. God seems to permit it, too. Perhaps the most common form of abortion is natural, and we call it miscarriage. God appears to be protecting against babies that are in some ways malformed or otherwise abnormal. You also have numerous still-births. 

 (3) One illustration. One family I know already had six children, despite using the Catholic-approved family planning procedure. They had hoped for four but welcomed each new baby warmly, despite heavier and heavier economic pressures. The doctor warned them that another pregancy could mean death of both the mother and the baby. As good Catholics, they 'had faith' and chanced it. Both mother and baby died. The grieving husband, now without his beloved wife and six motherless children, left the church intensely angry and that family became active in a Protestant parish where abortion certainly is not encouraged but the health of the mother is a key consideration and artificial birth control is allowed. If we can avoid all sorts of health hazards with modern pills, surgery and other medical advances, why not artificial birth control? It certainly beats the death of mothers and infants, means greater freedom and joy of married couples in their intimate lives doesn't kill fetuses, and doesn't alienate sincere Catholics. 

 I know this is heresy, but so be it. Surveys indicate that the vast majority of married Catholic couples agree with me. I believe that they should have that right without being viewed as big sinners.

 Therefore, I do not weigh anti-abortion as the major issue when I come to judge candidates for office. It's simply more complex than that.
 
Roy5 said:
Pro-life is important but three quick points.
Code: 
 (1) Pro-life, to me, means more than opposing abortions. I always have been amazed that some rabid pro-life Catholics can beat the war drums loudly when thousands of innocent people are killed, including many babies in the womb. 

 (2) There are cases when I believe that abortion may be justified. God seems to permit it, too. Perhaps the most common form of abortion is natural, and we call it miscarriage. God appears to be protecting against babies that are in some ways malformed or otherwise abnormal. You also have numerous still-births. 

 (3) One illustration. One family I know already had six children, despite using the Catholic-approved family planning procedure. They had hoped for four but welcomed each new baby warmly, despite heavier and heavier economic pressures. The doctor warned them that another pregancy could mean death of both the mother and the baby. As good Catholics, they 'had faith' and chanced it. Both mother and baby died. The grieving husband, now without his beloved wife and six motherless children, left the church intensely angry and that family became active in a Protestant parish where abortion certainly is not encouraged but the health of the mother is a key consideration and artificial birth control is allowed. If we can avoid all sorts of health hazards with modern pills, surgery and other medical advances, why not artificial birth control? It certainly beats the death of mothers and infants, means greater freedom and joy of married couples in their intimate lives doesn't kill fetuses, and doesn't alienate sincere Catholics. 

 I know this is heresy, but so be it. Surveys indicate that the vast majority of married Catholic couples agree with me. I believe that they should have that right without being viewed as big sinners.

 Therefore, I do not weigh anti-abortion as the major issue when I come to judge candidates for office. It's simply more complex than that.
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Salvation is not statistical.

Jesus put it another way,

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
 
Darryl1958 said:
It can mean more, but indeed it cannot ever mean anything less to a Catholic.
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The last phrase “to a Catholic” is important. Can you understand then how members of those religions which do not forbid all abortions, such as Judaism and Quakerism among others, might be wary of voting for a Presidential candidate who would be in favor of banning ALL abortions, no matter the circumstances, by whatever means? And can you also understand how this social position may be a factor in influencing the outcome of the Presidential election to the detriment of the candidate who espouses it?
 
meltzerboy said:
The last phrase “to a Southerner” is important. Can you understand then how members of those southerners which do not forbid all slavery, such as Texas and Mississippi among others, might be wary of voting for a Presidential candidate who would be in favor of banning ALL slavery, no matter the circumstances, by whatever means? And can you also understand how this social position may be a factor in influencing the outcome of the Presidential election to the detriment of the candidate who espouses it?
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Sorry, that’s what I read when I read those arguments.
 
meltzerboy said:
The last phrase “to a Catholic” is important. Can you understand then how members of those religions which do not forbid all abortions, such as Judaism and Quakerism among others, might be wary of voting for a Presidential candidate who would be in favor of banning ALL abortions, no matter the circumstances, by whatever means? And can you also understand how this social position may be a factor in influencing the outcome of the Presidential election to the detriment of the candidate who espouses it?
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No But then I never understood why ordinary Germans tolerated death camps in their midst.
 
bbarrick8383 said:
Sorry, that’s what I read when I read those arguments.
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I didn’t ask whether you agree with the other religious views on abortion or whether you think they are just, only whether you can understand them. I can understand the Catholic view on abortion, based on the definition and sanctity of human life, even though I don’t entirely agree with it, based on my own religion’s perspective on the definition and sanctity of human life. I can also understand the Southern position on slavery, based on cultural upbringing as well as perceived economic necessity, although I don’t at all agree with it, based on my view that slavery is immoral.
 
meltzerboy said:
I didn’t ask whether you agree with the other religious views on abortion or whether you think they are just, only whether you can understand them. I can understand the Catholic view on abortion, based on the definition and sanctity of human life, even though I don’t entirely agree with it, based on my own religion’s perspective. I can also understand the Southern position on slavery, based on cultural upbringing as well as perceived economic necessity, although I don’t at all agree with it, based on my view that slavery is immoral.
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Abortion is not is “religious” issue It an issue of fundamental human rights.
 
estesbob said:
meltzerboy;8326910:
I didn’t ask whether you agree with the other religious views on abortion or whether you think they are just, only whether you can understand them. I can understand the Catholic view on abortion, based on the definition and sanctity of human life, even though I don’t entirely agree with it, based on my own religion’s perspective. I can also understand the Southern position on slavery, based on cultural upbringing as well as perceived economic necessity, although I don’t at all agree with it, based on my view that slavery is immoral.
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Tell that to an Orthodox Jewish woman who is REQUIRED to have an abortion by Jewish Law because her life is threatened by not terminating the pregnancy, and is not allowed to have one because ALL abortion has been banned.
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meltzerboy said:
I didn’t ask whether you agree with the other religious views on abortion or whether you think they are just, only whether you can understand them. I can understand the Catholic view on abortion, based on the definition and sanctity of human life, even though I don’t entirely agree with it, based on my own religion’s perspective on the definition and sanctity of human life. I can also understand the Southern position on slavery, based on cultural upbringing as well as perceived economic necessity, although I don’t at all agree with it, based on my view that slavery is immoral.
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meltzerboy,

Deliberately killing a defenseless human being is murder. Calling it “abortion” or “choice” or “monopoly” doesn’t turn it into a different act. The innocent human being is just as dead.

And it doesn’t change the equation that some people define human beings as starting at 1 year, 6 months, 2 years or at the age of reason or only if they register as Democrat.

-g
 
I am disappointed that Sarah Palin is still stringing everyone along. She need to announce she is not running - IMO it would be a huge mistake if she ran
 
estesbob said:
I am disappointed that Sarah Palin is still stringing everyone along. She need to announce she is not running - IMO it would be a huge mistake if she ran
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I think she’s continuing to do what she feels like doing and if people are feeling strung along maybe they should let go and if she decides to run then she decides to run. I stopped caring whether she did or not a long time ago. Would love to see her run, but I’d also love to sit back and watch her stick it to the left from her home via Facebook while wiping tears of laughter from her face with 100 dollar bills.
 
meltzerboy said:
The last phrase “to a Catholic” is important. Can you understand then how members of those religions which do not forbid all abortions, such as Judaism and Quakerism among others, might be wary of voting for a Presidential candidate who would be in favor of banning ALL abortions, no matter the circumstances, by whatever means? And can you also understand how this social position may be a factor in influencing the outcome of the Presidential election to the detriment of the candidate who espouses it?
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If the Lord and the God of the Jews and the Quakers is speaking to them through their hearts, their religious authorities, and their holy scriptures, and if His words are instructing the Quaker and the Jew to support a socially liberal policy of absolutely unfettered access to abortion, even if such a policy is being advocated by those who would want to allow infanticide in certain cases too;
if your Lord and your God is speaking to you and telling you that that is the position that your religion guides you to, then rather than aligning yourself with a movement aligned with the religious right which would restrict access to abortion either partially or maybe even completely at some remote point of time, you ought to vote Democrat as you would anyway.

If that is the position of Judaism, then by all means, vote for the abortion party.
 
Darryl1958 said:
If the Lord and the God of the Jews and the Quakers is speaking to them through their hearts, their religious authorities, and their holy scriptures, and if His words are instructing the Quaker and the Jew to support a socially liberal policy of absolutely unfettered access to abortion, even if such a policy is being advocated by those who would want to allow infanticide in certain cases too;
if your Lord and your God is speaking to you and telling you that that is the position that your religion guides you to, then rather than aligning yourself with a movement aligned with the religious right which would restrict access to abortion either partially or maybe even completely at some remote point of time, you ought to vote Democrat as you would anyway.

If that is the position of Judaism, then by all means, vote for the abortion party.
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However, “absolutely unfettered access to abortion” is not the position of Orthodox Judaism or even Reform Judaism (see post #517). I just don’t want to vote for a candidate who wishes to make ALL abortion illegal regardless of circumstances. Otherwise, for me, abortion is not the major issue; the economy is. That’s why I’m at least considering alternatives to Obama.
 
meltzerboy said:
I didn’t ask whether you agree with the other religious views on abortion or whether you think they are just, only whether you can understand them. I can understand the Catholic view on abortion, based on the definition and sanctity of human life, even though I don’t entirely agree with it, based on my own religion’s perspective on the definition and sanctity of human life.** I can also understand the Southern position on slavery**, based on cultural upbringing as well as perceived economic necessity, although I don’t at all agree with it, based on my view that slavery is immoral.
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There are certain things that, though you may be able to “understand” someone’s position on it, their acts should be wholly unacceptable. Slaveholders have their justifications, the Nazis had their justifications against Jews, the jihadists or Islamists have their justifications for suicide bombings.

Understanding them doesn’t mean I’m going to take a relativistic viewpoint and decide that slavery, the killing of Jews or suicide bombing shouldn’t be made illegal because not everyone agrees. 🤷

And, yes, I consider the killing of an innocent, unborn human equal to the victims of the holocaust and suicide bombers… Innocents are innocents.
 
meltzerboy said:
However, “absolutely unfettered access to abortion” is not the position of Orthodox Judaism or even Reform Judaism (see post #517). I just don’t want to vote for a candidate who wishes to make ALL abortion illegal regardless of circumstances. Otherwise, for me, abortion is not the major issue; the economy is. That’s why I’m at least considering alternatives to Obama.
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I would not think that Judaism in any of its forms would hold such a position…

Absolutely unfettered access to abortion is not the position of most religions, as far as I know. For Jews and Quakers to be putting more energy against the religious right rather than against the secular left—who hold such a position of unfettered access and universal financing of abortion almost as an orthodoxy statement of secular faith— does a disservice to their religions on this one serious matter then.

It is question then of how much human life in its entirety is valued by other faiths to see how much of a priority that a practice that destroys in the environs of a half a million to a million American lives a year really is.
For Catholics though, which might include Roy5, the teaching is clear enough. I am guessing for most Jews though, and for most liberal Catholics and Quakers too, it doesn’t much matter. Liberal Catholics though, at least have to keep up the appearance.

Also, making abortion illegal in all situations is very, very distant proposition politically speaking. It would be a very hard sell even to many pro-lifers at this time. I would think that Orthodox Judaism would have something very valuable to add to the debate, cloaked in the Biblical language that conservative evangelicals in particular can appreciate.
 
Roy5: Abortion would have STILL resulted in the death of that baby and mother would have been scarred for life if she did not die from complications. Artificial birth control goes against GOD’S PLAN! Are you using that story to argue for poison to block the transmission of the creation of human life?
And** there is no time when abortion is EVER necessary to save a woman’s LIFE. There are two patients in a pregnancy: mom and baby.**

Miscarriage is spontaneous, it is NOT an abortion. God does not cause these to weed out those who are abnormal or imperfect!

I would love if Santorum had a chance, he meets the 5 nonnegotiable points.
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
How is Ron Paul more pro-life than Perry? or Santorum?
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I was interested in finding out who was a commited Pro-Life candidate since someone claimed Paul was more Pro-Life than Santorum.
I used the link provided by gilliam here to find out about how the canidates have voted:
ontheissues.org/2012/Ron_Paul_Abortion.htm#06n-NRLC
ontheissues.org/Rick_Santorum_VoteMatch.htm
ontheissues.org/Rick_Perry.htm

Ron Paul scored only 56% on abortion and 83% total Prolife score by the (NRLC) National Right to Life Committee (mixed record).
Voted NO on restricting interstate transport of minors to get abortions.
Voted NO on making it a crime to harm a fetus during another crime.
Voted NO on forbidding human cloning for reproduction & medical research.

In contrast Rick Santorum I believe was rated 100% (pro-life) by the NRLC:
ontheissues.org/Rick_Santorum_VoteMatch.htm
Also I found this guide to the candidates:
texasrighttolife.com/a/747/Presidential-contenders–Low-fundraising-numbers-high-ProLife-scores
He (Santorum) is well-known for leading the charge against partial birth abortion when President Clinton vetoed the ban against it in 1997. Santorum has also authored legislation in favor of adult stem cell research, fought to pass the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, and the Unborn Victims of Violence Act. Beyond the abortion issue, he helped pass the Individuals with Disability Education Act and the Combating Autism Act. Santourm has been endorsed by Kim Lehman, former executive director of Iowa Right to Life.
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jediliz said:
Roy5: Abortion would have STILL resulted in the death of that baby and mother would have been scarred for life if she did not die from complications. Artificial birth control goes against GOD’S PLAN! Are you using that story to argue for poison to block the transmission of the creation of human life?
And** there is no time when abortion is EVER necessary to save a woman’s LIFE. There are two patients in a pregnancy: mom and baby.**

Miscarriage is spontaneous, it is NOT an abortion. God does not cause these to weed out those who are abnormal or imperfect!

I would love if Santorum had a chance, he meets the 5 nonnegotiable points.
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I agree. Unfortunately, Santorum has some baggage he can’t overcome with his fellow conservatives.
 
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