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1cthlctrth
Guest
I’ll make you a deal. If your home is in the process of being robbed by armed maniacs, you can call the mental health experts. I think I’ll stick with the police.
25 unarmed Whites and only 14 unarmed Blacks were fatally shot by police in 2019. Do the data suggest that police deserve an apology from those who vi
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Anrakyr
Guest
You must think this so witty even though it doesn’t do anything to demonstrate why police should be the ones to respond to every crisis. Break-in in progress? Sure, non-verbal autistic sitting in traffic? Not so much.
The point is for health wellness checks. Its happened time and again that police called on people in crisis just ends up with people injured or worse.
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otjm
Guest
For starters, that is a presumption that mental health is better equipped to handle the broad range of crises. Many who are in a crisis pose no danger to others. On the other hand, many crises are a danger to themselves and/or others. Sending in someone unarmed will short circuit itself rapidly if these crisis workers are attacked, resulting in injuries and/or death.
A better approach would be to send out a team of mental health worker and a police person as it provides some safety to the mh worker. Net result, police are still needed.
And any in-depth research of BLM will show that they have no viable plan for what is needed to replace the police defunded. Some, if not many of the big cities are already stretched thin, and even if their calls were replaced by a mh worker, there would not be an adequate number of police to handle crime calls. And those cities, with Seattle as an example, were already under stress in recruiting; even offering big bonuses was failing to garner an adequate number of recruits.
In the 1920s, 100 years ago, Marxist literature stated that the way to destabilze the US was to start a race war. Looking at their tactics now of demanding the defunding of the police (and the knee jerk reactions of some of those same cities) has shown the near immediate results of increase in crime. Multiple peer reviewed studies have show that having more police on the street, not fewer, results in a decrease in crime.
Seattle is now the source of a study as to what defunding police will really mean. The city counsel has over-ridden the mayor’s veto and is planning a cut somewhere in the range of 50 to 70 million dollars. They want better policing, but are going to cut training. That is pure illogic. They want fewer police, but can’t meet needs currently. So with fewer police, needs will be meet at an even lower rate. More illogic.
And the citizens and businesses of Seattle will bear the brunt of this “experiment”.
The one critical question is whether the city leaders and citizens could remove and replace the counsel before so much damage has been done that it will be near term irreversible.
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otjm
Guest
And how often does that occur, as opposed to, say, someone in a suicidal mode and armed, or rage mode threatening family, friends and/or neighbors - or simply whomever they accost on the street?
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Anrakyr
Guest
If there was more healthcare then it wouldn’t escalate to that point.
You can’t start a war by going to one side and saying “guy over there said you had a funny noes.”
There has to be history there to agitate.
Secondly many Americans have this mistaken idea that equality was achieved in a nice gradual increase. Not taking into account all the set backs or periods of down turn.
Just we solved racism already. Good job guys.
Actually I can show you New York when the police went on strike only doing the bare minimum reported crime went down.
Enough
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otjm
Guest
If this was the 1960’s I might be inclined to agree with you.
The FBI did a study some time ago of people in prison (not jail). The single most prevalent characteristic, across all races was the lack of a father in the home.
Next, let’s look at some numbers.
From NPR (not your standard far right news agency): in 1965 25% of black babies were born out of wedlock.
From the same report: in 2005, 70% of black babies were born out of wedlock. And from the National Center for Health Statistics, as of 2015 it was 77.3% of black births are out of wedlock.
As noted periodically in news reports, black children were/are being recruited into gangs around the age of 12; if one must ask why, they are vulnerable to any sort of father figure, and older gang members provide that.
And that has a significant (name removed by moderator)ut pushing them toward a life of crime. Yes, kids with dads in the home commit crimes, but nowhere near the percentage of kids without dads.
And yes, there is poverty in those single parent households - and where is the dad in terms of assisting in any relief from poverty? Not in the home…
Yes, there are plenty of charges of being pulled over by police for “driving while black” and blacks have a higher conviction rate for crimes percentagewise to whites - because they commit more crimes.
Yes, poverty pushes some into crime, but I submit the lack of a male parent in the home has far more to do with a kid going astray than does poverty itself.
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otjm
Guest
“Systematic Racism” is the Marxist cry of BLM and Antifa, neither of which has provided any evidence of what system is racist, and any evidence tof that racism. It is the cry being repeated constantly by the liberal news media, again without a scintilla of evidence.
The bishops may “feel”, or “believe” that there is systemic racism. If we want to talk "systemic, then the racism is actually against straight whites, in particular when anyone of any race is applying for any government job, as preference is given by law to minorities, be they racial minorities or sexual minorities.
Unless and until the bishops can articulate what the “systemic” facts and evidence are, it is a “belief” and a “feeling” - meaning, an unfounded opinion.
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otjm
Guest
Given that in 2015, 77.3% of black babies were born to unwed mothers is a factual number.
No one in power has imposed sexual activity on black women by black men.
Whether the law still says that a woman can only receive welfare if there is no black male in the home is a question for whomever wants to research welfare law; but it was imposed when President Johnson signed the welfare act during his presidency, and that has often been referred to as the beginning of the breakdown of the black family.
Other than that impetus for the black father to leave the family home, one can ascribe a general fall into sexual licentiousness to the general degrading of society as a whole, starting with the “free love” bit of the 1960’s.
And it was the FBI, in a survey of prison population which found the most predominant characteristic among prisoners was the lack of a father in the home.
So perhaps whomever wants to say there is systemic racism in the welfare laws can do so, pointing to that aspect (no welfare for the mother if the father is in the home); but it doesn’t address the sexual liaisons - which the government did not force on anyone.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I do not stand in judgement over our bishops. I acknowledge their authority over me as shepherds of Christ’s Church on earth.
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Anrakyr
Guest
So why were father’s absent?
Not saying it’s a excuse but firefighters don’t say “oh well” after they put out a fire. They shift through the debris.
It’s mighty convenient to find a statistic that doesn’t directly have anything to do with race then call it a day.
Sure I can. Redlining. Former Confederate historians marking books with slavery in it “unjust to the south”. As such they pushed for vast edits to historical peices either glossing over or outright omitting events.
Blacks make up 12% of the population but around half the prison population.
Lastly people have this mistaken impression that after 1868 and the ratification of the 14th amendment everything just slowly got better. Like there was a slow magical steady incline of progress without any set backs.
But Americans will watch Remember the Titans like it’s no big deal which took place only fifty years ago in 1971. Back when Blacks could still be refused service and no one could do anything.
There are people alive today who still remember it and that was 100 years after the ratification.
Shall I go on?
Has things gotten better? Absolutely but we have a long way to go.
Yeah, um lynchings also happened before the 60s and after. I’m sure all that free love forced those good old boys to buy rope.
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phil3
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I thought it was rather witty. But but unlike “those that shall not be labeled” I needs facts
happens time and again isnt really a measurable fact. on average 240 million 911 calls are made in the usa yearly.
How many of these do you think the police should not answer?
And I am not talking about the ones where a customer dial 911 because the fries were missing from the meal deal.
I am talking about real calls that someone is needed to resolve the issue.
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otjm
Guest
The bishops’ opinions on systemic racism and immigration laws are prudential, and as Pope Benedict noted, Catholics are not bound to accept a prudential judgement; and if they do not accept it they are still free (as in free from sin) to present themselves for Communion.
Racism is wrong; it is a sin, just as abortion, robbery, adultery and a whole host of other issues are a sin. However, when bishops start saying “we have to do this (or that)” in reference to what they perceive as systemic racism, it is still a prudential statement.
I agree we need to combat racism. And I am still waiting to hear what “systemic’” refers to. Likewise, to the cries of “institutional racism”, another repeated comment without a scintilla of evidence to back it up.
The police are referred to, again without a scintilla of evidence, as “racist”, and that reference was alluded to in Portland, Oregon this last summer, as one black “spokeswoman” noted in an interview, “because the gang enforcement team was always in our area”. The team was eliminated this summer. Note: the team is referred to as “gang enforcement” and as “gun reduction”.
An interview with three officers (one white sergeant, one black sergeant and a woman officer on the gun reduction team) spoke about what has been going on in Portland since the riots started. At about 41 minutes the woman officer relates what has happened since the team was dissolved: within the stretch of time a year ago there were about 35 shootings; in the time this year, 100. And as she notes, only part of the black community is being heard from; the whole of the community is not.
This is a long video. If anyone truly wants to hear something other than the liberal media rhetoric, I would advise listening to the whole video.
At 45:35 the woman officer makes a really interesting statement. I wonder how many people watching this have already made up their minds about a certain issue based on what they see, rather than on the actual evidence.
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otjm
Guest
That was answered in my post. The incentive was provided by the welfare act signed by President Johnson that prevented a woman with children from receiving welfare if there was a man in the home.
33%, not about half.
They commit more crimes. S noted of the FBI survey, the number one characteristic of those in prison, across all races: no father in the home (broad hint - discipline). And blacks have the highest rate of births to unwed mothers, at 77.3% as of 2015.
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Anrakyr
Guest
Police can’t arrest fires. They also can’t arrest heart attacks.
I am talking real prevention. If we had real mental health care we wouldn’t even need to dail.
Facts are police show up and kill people. They don’t need too.
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phil3
Guest
great job at not answering the question. .
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I didn’t say their documents were binding. I said I choose to respect their teaching. Your arguments are also prudential, and I choose not to follow them. I think I have chosen wisely.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The law was struck down in 1968. So why are fathers still absent?
Crime follows poverty.
That also follows poverty. If you looked only at well-to-do blacks I don’t think you would find very many unwed mothers.
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otjm
Guest
Actually, no, or the birth rate for other minorities and for the majority would mirror it. Crime rates for other minorities and the majority are also significantly lower. Having a father in the home or not in the home is more relevant in crime statistics than any other factor.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
It does, when you limit the statistic to those in poverty.
Again, control for poverty and you will find it is the same.
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otjm
Guest
“Real mental health care” is a figment of your imagination. People committing “suicide by police” for the large part if not the largest part have been treated for mental health. And they go suicidal when they stop taking their meds.
If by “real mental health” you mean locking them up and throwing way the key, society will not put up with that - not to mention the ACLU.
And patient autonomy means you cannot force feed them their meds. They choose to go off the meds, because they don’t like the side effect, and we wash, rinse and repeat. Your mantra has to be more than an imaginary “real” mental health. Throwing more money at a system which respects patient autonomy and is massively against permanent lockup doesn’t answer the question of how to keep someone on their meds.
And your constant repetition that we need more mental health does not address the underlying problem.
Yes, we have a need for more mental health. but that is not addressing the problem and will not address the problem of people with a serious psychosis and/or other mental health issues failing to cooperate in the treatment. And a very significant part of the treatment is staying on the meds, which give side effects which causes them to go off meds.
Facts show that the people being killed are a danger to others, are most generally armed, fail to follow reasonable commands, and are shot because of the threat they make. Your insistence to take a few cases and to try to modify policing entirely, and mental health to do that which it is not capable is making for a pointless discussion.
I understand - you already have your mind made up. You keep talking about mental health but fail to say what it is that mental health can do which they are not already doing. State how they can do something differently and we can discuss.
Otherwise this is just getting a repeat of prior statements with no factual evidence.
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