25 unarmed Whites and only 14 unarmed Blacks were fatally shot by police in 2019. Do the data suggest that police deserve an apology from those who vi

[Anrakyr]

are you talking forced treatment for recalcitrant addicts, and secure commitment facilities for the mentally ill?

if we had early available treatment for mental illness we wouldn’t need police officers to respond to extreme cases.

no one is talking jail as much as publicly available therapists medication and proper diagnosis.

 

[Theo520]

if we had early available treatment for mental illness we wouldn’t need police officers to respond to extreme cases.

Are you thinking of early drug intervention, of forcing them to take their meds daily? Replace the popo with Nurse Ratchet and two burly interns

no one is talking jail as much as publicly available therapists medication and proper diagnosis.

We’ve already got that available.

 

[Anrakyr]

We’ve already got that available.

Not in the US

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Why is that a relevant question?

For the reason I stated in my post.

I assume you mean this:

If the restraint would not normally cause damage

The trick is in the interpretation of the word “normally”. If it kills less than half the people they use it on, is that still OK for “normal” people? How about it is only kills 0.1%? I would say using the word “normal” too strictly is not the proper policy. The police should expect to encounter people with all sorts of health problems and liabilities - even more so for the people they find themselves arresting, in which those with drug problems are very likely. This is no excuse to adopt policies that are not safe for the people they encounter.

potentially deadly to everyone with a weak heart, or asthma, or severe depression

I didn’t say those things. I said being high on fentanyl.

But you didn’t say why killing someone on fentanyl is more excusable than killing someone with asthma.

Also, how would a physical event such as this affect someone with severe depression differently than a person without?

Daniel Prude. He would not be dead now if he had been mentally healthy.

 

[Zaccheus]

Actually, the ME initially concluded he died of a drug overdose. He had enough fentanyl in his system to kill a horse.

And yet he was walking around, going to a store to buy things.

 

[Anrakyr]

And yet he was walking around, going to a store to buy things.

Yeah this is what bothers me the most about it. In the states the coroner is not a medical investigator as much as somebody appointed by the sheriff. And if you think from about it for a moment you realize just how biased that would be in this case.

Not only are coroner not medically trained but if they’re hand-picked by the local sheriff how are you supposed to investigate the local police force?

 

[Annie]

I assume you mean this:

No, I meant this:

Now, when an officer shoots someone who is unarmed and the defense is, well, it turns out this was a very bad guy, the response is generally that the officer could not have known that at the time of the shooting so it does not count.

The trick is in the interpretation of the word “normally”. If it kills less than half the people they use it on, is that still OK for “normal” people? How about it is only kills 0.1%?

Given the knowledge we have if human anatomy, we know what sorts of actions upon it are likely to be fatal.

 

[VonDerTann]

Actually he was going to the store to STEAL things with his counterfeit money.

The fact remains he had so much fentanyl in his system his death was as OD. The defense attorneys should have an easy time showing that, at a minimum, his death was not caused by the officers and hence they are not guilty in the eyes of the law.

 

[Zaccheus]

The accusation of counterfeit money has never been proved as far as I know.
Nor has the accusation that he was under the influence of drugs.

Even if both accusations were true,–

I have viewed the video. Here is eyewitness evidence.

George Floyd died of suffocation.

Note that you have to click the “I wish to proceed” button to view the video.

 

[pnewton]

These are all questions a jury will have to consider, along with the question of whether or not what Floyd did constitute the threat needed for maximum restraint, or whatever they called it, and continued to constitute that threat while the restraint was being applied.

altho it seems like the officers agreed that Floyd was in a state of excited delirium.

If that is the case, then it might weigh against them as any sort of restraint face down is never allowed, and usually fatal, in such cases. Ten years ago, officers were given a pass on this, but I think it is pretty common knowledge. In any case, he really did not have a lot of the signs of that.

 

[pnewton]

are you talking forced treatment for recalcitrant addicts, and secure commitment facilities for the mentally ill? Sounds a lot like jail.

It is not. Mental health hospitals have employees that are trained in handling the mentally ill. Jails have employee trained in handling criminals. The facilities are laid out differently. The rules of dealing with those committed are vastly different.

Nurse Ratchet and two burly interns

The problem with the internet is too many people get their information from TV, and think that constitutes an opinion. You have just insulted every mental health nurse in the field because of a character from a movie in a 1962 novel.

 

[VonDerTann]

“Never been proven” that Floyd had large numbers of fentanyl in his system?

The Hennepin County chief medical examiner Dr.
Andrew Baker said he had a fatal level of fentanyl in his system.

 

[Hodos]

The accusation of counterfeit money has never been proved as far as I know.
Nor has the accusation that he was under the influence of drugs.

Whether the accusation of counterfeit money is true or not is irrelevant. The police were responding to a call that he used a counterfeit bill. They had a reason to stop Mr. Floyd.

The medical examiner’s report demonstrated that he had a number of drugs in his system including levels of fentanyl that are over three times the lethal dosage.

George Floyd died of suffocation.

There is no indication from his autopsy that he died of asphyxiation. The autopsy actually contradicts this conclusion. And the medical memos that have been released during the medical examination indicate that he most likely died of an overdose.

 

[Hodos]

You have just insulted every mental health nurse in the field because of a character from a movie in a 1962 novel.

It was a really good book though and Jack Nicholson was superb in the movie.

 

[Zaccheus]

“Never been proven” that Floyd had large numbers of fentanyl in his system?

The Hennepin County chief medical examiner Dr.
Andrew Baker said he had a fatal level of fentanyl in his system.

Never been proven that he was on drugs the day he died. Never been proven that he was stealing or passing counterfeit the day he died.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Now, when an officer shoots someone who is unarmed and the defense is, well, it turns out this was a very bad guy, the response is generally that the officer could not have known that at the time of the shooting…

Could not have known what? That the man was unarmed? Or that he was a very bad guy?

so it does not count.

What doesn’t count? The fact that the man was unarmed? Or the fact that the man was a very bad guy? I really don’t understand the point, and especially how it might apply to a police killing of someone with a medical condition that the officer did not know about. If the officer restrains people in a way that is deadly to people who have taken fentanyl, how is the fact that he doesn’t know who has taken fentanyl and excuse to operate that way? It certainly would not apply to asthma, for example, would it?

The trick is in the interpretation of the word “normally”. If it kills less than half the people they use it on, is that still OK for “normal” people? How about it is only kills 0.1%?

Given the knowledge we have if human anatomy, we know what sorts of actions upon it are likely to be fatal.

The standard practice should not include methods that are only “not likely” to be fatal to the average healthy person. That is way too weak a standard, unless it is a real emergency situation where lives are in danger. In that case, any method is on the table, including the use of deadly force. That certainly does not describe the arrest of George Floyd.

 

[Annie]

The trick is in the interpretation of the word “normally”. If it kills less than half the people they use it on, is that still OK for “normal” people?

Sorry, I pocket-posted the last post by mistake!

I think that given our knowledge of anatomy, we should be able to figure out what has the potential for killing people. However, that range might not include people who have taken so much fentanyl that the dose itself could kill them.

If @pnewton is correct

If that is the case, then it might weigh against them as any sort of restraint face down is never allowed, and usually fatal, in such cases.

then clearly if the officers thought he was in a state of excited delirium, restraining him face down would indeed be contra-indicated.

But this is the sort of thing I am talking about. I don’t think that we should state conclusions that are not based on sufficient evidence.

Also, on looking into this, I find that I was wrong about the officers thinking before the neck restraint that Floyd was in a state of excited delerium --I thought I had read that somewhere but it seems that the mention of ED came during the neck restraint when one officer suggested Floyd should be prone rather than prostrate because he might be suffering from ED.

But you didn’t say why killing someone on fentanyl is more excusable than killing someone with asthma.

It might make a person abnormally vulnerable, as does, according to @pnewton, excited delerium.

Daniel Prude. He would not be dead now if he had been mentally healthy.

According to the autopsy, what contributed to his death was excited delerium and being high on PCP. To blame his depression is to ignore a number of other much more proximate causes. Going along that path, one could say he wouldn’t have been killed had he not bee alive. His depression did not make him physically more vulnerable to therestraint. .

 

[VonDerTann]

You’re being 100% unreasonable as to the quantum of proof you feel entitled to. Exactly what proof would you like? There’s so much proof it is uncontested. “George Floyd had significant levels of fentanyl in his system when he died” is a fact not subject to reasonable dispute.

 

[VonDerTann]

No unarmed people should be fatally shot by police. Black or white.

This is an overly-simplistic statement that breaks down on the rocks of reality. An “unarmed person” includes someone carrying a fake gun. Are you saying that it is never understandable or defensible when a person whips out a fake pistol and aims it at a police officer, and gets shot? That is in fact what you are saying.

 

[VonDerTann]

Ok, so my question is if he would have died from the restraint had he not taken all that fentynal?

First, it’s not a chokehold, which is when someone puts his arm around your neck, possibly sufficiently to restrict breathing or bloodflow.

Was what the officer did sufficient to restrict air or blood flow?

Your questions are valid and the responses thereto will almost certainly be part of the defense.

The “hold” in question is designed to subdue and restrain. Used properly it is not fatal. The defense will likely argue that the police didn’t kill Floyd, at all, let alone kill him deliberately, and there is evidence to back up such defenses.

Plus – George Floyd had COVID too when he died.