2nd Vatican Council

[rayray81]

Well the purpose of this thread was so that I could learn more about the whos and whys of Vatican 2. I am so thanks for all your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Keep up the civil conversations.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Originally Posted by Rara Avis
Being born the year of VII means I never new the pre Vat II church.

However the Church I grew up in taught me … nothing.

Hmmm… I was born the year VII began and LEARNED from the Church what the Catholic Church has taught since the first century. Go figure. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon6.gif

I think often the sin of sloth is to blame for those who claim not to have learned anything. Have you even tried? Or did you, like so many, voluntarily neglect your religious education as an adult, thinking what you learned as a kid was supposed to be enough, supposing this was supposed to be the last of your Catholic education?

There are many opportunities to continue your religious education as an adult. For example, I’m enrolled in a Catholic university (cdu.edu/), continuing my Catholic education. Others certainly can do the same, no? If you can’t afford college tuition, the Knights of Columbus offer online studies for free. (see here: kofc.org/publications/cis/index.cfm )

So, who’s really to blame for the lack of Catholic education? Perhaps you were simply one of many lousy students who blame their teachers instead of take responsibility for their own neglect.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

There are serious concerns about the validity of the New Mass

There’s no doubt at all as to its validity. It is no more invalid than the liturgy of the 1962 Roman Missal. Both the *edito typica *of the Pauline Mass and the 1962 edition can be abused, even to the point where the Mass itself becomes invalid. Yet there’s nothing inherent in the approved ecclesiastical norms of the liturgy or canon law that can be dangerous to the faithful. Such a proposition was condemned by the Catholic Church as erroneous. Those so-called Catholics that assert otherwise do so against this condemnation. See here: Are Ecclesiastical Disciplines Infallible?

 

[rayray81]

TNT:

PS: One of RAYRAY’s poll questions:
Q. No opinion, just hope that the discussion in this thread stays civil.
Yea, right. Are you a Blonde??

No I’m not blonde, was just desperate for a 7th option for the poll.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Moral impossibility, can in short, be defined as when you believe that it is wrong to act in a given situation. (i.e attend the Novus Ordo)

What is and is not immoral is not up to your private lights, is it? You sound like a probabilist, which is ironically the same methodology improperly used by those so-called “progressives” advocating use of contraception and abortion. You are aware that probabilism is not the “traditional” pre-Trent view, right? It is unquestionably post-Trent casuistry. I find it surprising that anyone claiming to be a “traditionalist” would rely upon such casuistry to defend their position.

An authentic judgement of the Roman Pontiff provides moral certainty, according to “traditional” Catholicism.

 

[ThornGenX]

I picked the "I wasn’t born yet … " option though I do hope this thread remains civil. I went to a Mass where I could not understand most of the language (A mass in Spanish and the main reason I went was to fulfill a holy day of obligation, namely Easter, and that was the last mass available in my town). Since I took Spanish in high school, I could understand bits and pieces (and some words are close enough to the English word to pick up easily).

Still, I could not imagine going to a mass like that every day. On the other hand, if I woke up tomorrow in a world where nothing but the latin (or other foreign language) mass were available, I would either learn that language or adapt somehow.

 

[Rara_Avis]

itsjustdave1988:

So, who’s really to blame for the lack of Catholic education? Perhaps you were simply one of many lousy students who blame their teachers instead of take responsibility for their own neglect.

I am the ONLY practicing Catholic out of my graduating Class of 1976 … does that say ANYTHING!

But it did produce a protestant minister!

And I did do a heck of a project on the Anglican Church in Gr. 8 religion class - which surprisingly enough I remember quite well! LOL!

Funny thing about religion - most people do not wake up one day and decide they need to find the Lord - Religion is taught just like all other subjects. And if it is not taught at home, school or church … what then.

By the Grace of God I went seeking the Truth … but millions just plain DON"T

I

 

[Rara_Avis]

ThornGenX:

Still, I could not imagine going to a mass like that every day. On the other hand, if I woke up tomorrow in a world where nothing but the latin (or other foreign language) mass were available, I would either learn that language or adapt somehow.

The Language of the Mass is what provides Unity, Oneness. Imagine hearing Mass everyday of your life in one particular way! EXACTLY - never changing - you do not have to hear the words to understand them. And one day you find yourself in a foreign country - nothing is as you know it … except The Catholic Church. That priest is saying the exact same worlds you have listened to your whole life - every gesture, every genuflect, every move - exactly how you have always known - that is the comfort that only The Church can provide … That is what once apon a time made the Church Universal!

Now you never know what you’re going to get when you walk through the doors of a “catholic” church.

 

[katherine2]

Rara Avis:

Imagine hearing Mass everyday of your life in one particular way! EXACTLY - never changing - you do not have to hear the words to understand them. And one day you find yourself in a foreign country - nothing is as you know it … except The Catholic Church. That priest is saying the exact same worlds you have listened to your whole life .

Except before the liturgical movement, listening and pondering the words of the Mass was never considered important. It was preent as a dialogue between the priest and God. It wasn’t often even very audible and the laity would mind thier time in their private devotions.

 

[otm]

Rara Avis:

Being born the year of VII means I never new the pre Vat II church.

However the Church I grew up in taught me … nothing.

I understood the language yet knew nothing. I did not know that Mass was a Sacrifce … I was under the impression it was a boring sing song.

Saints … who are they. Prayer … How’s that Hail Mary go again? Purgatory … never heard of it. And isn’t the rosary something you hang from your mirror for decoration?

God is cool and it doesn’t matter what you do because everyone goes to Heaven

And if you don’t go to Heaven well don’t worry about it because Hell doesn’t exist

And what ever you do … All little boys stay away from the priest!
The above are TRUE facts … that was me … that is the fruit of VII.

But by the grace of God I am no longer a product of VII - When I went seaching for the Truth I found it … and too be quite honest once I found it - I was MAD - to think that that which should have been my right since birth was almost completely stolen from me!

While I don’t disagree that you were wrongly taught, blaming that on Vatican 2 makes as much sense as blaming it on the Viet Nam war, which was occuring at the same time.

The cause of this failure of catechesis was the result of individuals going off in their own directions (multiple), and the failure of the bishops to address the changes in catechesis. Given that the dissent in the Church exploded with Humanae Vitae, which was issued after Vatican 2 and not as a result of Vatican 2, but rather as a result of the creation of the Pill and the questions that caused, it would make more sense to blame it on Humanae Vitae. However, even that encyclical did not cause the fallout; what caused it was the dissent that the bishops did not address.

You never were a product of Vatican 2; if you had been, you would have been properly catechized.

 

[Exporter]

I was a convert in 1955. With my St Joseph’s Daily Missal ( Latin on the left page and English on the right page) I learned the Latin responses in a year. This went on for about fifteen years, with my reverence for the Mass as it had been said for Centuries. It gave me a feeling of belonging to the Early Fathers and the valid Church.

Then came Vatican II. I was shocked by the vernacular. In fact I was almost angry. I started to miss Mass often. I thought if they were going to say Mass in English, they (the Church) was trying to be like the Protestants. So what’s the use, I might as well go to a Protestant Church if the were saying Mass in English like Protestants! After ten years of hit and miss attendance I noticed the people who did attend Mass were different - less respective of the Priest and Mass.

In my opinion the results of Vatican II are not what Rome expected. They made a blunder. Just look at the termoil in the Seminaries, the Courts and local parishes since 1985. We didn’t have all these embarrasing events before Vatican II.

 

[Rara_Avis]

katherine2:

Except before the liturgical movement, listening and pondering the words of the Mass was never considered important. It was preent as a dialogue between the priest and God. It wasn’t often even very audible and the laity would mind thier time in their private devotions.

How on earth do you attribute any truth to a statement like that!!!

I would seriously start questioning how accurate your source of information is!

Pope Pius X has put it in these few words: “Don’t pray at Holy Mass, but pray the Holy Mass.” Explaining himself further, His Holiness set forth: “The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice , dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be hear, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar.”

 

[otm]

As taken from a Theologian in a recent Catholic Publication. It is also states that in France, there are more people attending the TLM either through the Indult or SSPX than that go to the Novus Ordo:

There are serious concerns about the validity of the New Mass, especially when said in the vernacular. Quite often the words of the Consecration are ad-libbed and thus the Mass becomes invalid.(even if the translations are valid) When there are serious doubts as to whether one has attended a valid Mass or not, it is best to err on the side of caution and avoid the Novus Ordo altogether.

Moral Theology And Canon Law provide for such situations :

-Canon 1248.2. states that those who through inconveniece or
moral impossibility cannot fulfil the Mass obligation can pray at home ; “personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.”

-Canon 1323. States that one incurs no penalty for violating a
precept when he acts from serious inconvience or even percieved
fear.

Moral impossibility, can in short, be defined as when you believe that it is wrong to act in a given situation. (i.e attend the Novus Ordo)

Now, if you find the Novus Ordo to be a near occasion of sin,
or sacrilege, or a danger to your spirituality-- you are in a situation where you cannot take action (i.e-- you cannot attend the Novus Ordo )

There are no concerns whatsoever as to the validity of the Pauline rite within the Church. The only people who question the validity are those who have seperated themsleves off from the Church, and have endowed themselves with judgemental power based on invalid theology.

I have yet to hear a priest ad lib the words of Consecration. Presuming, for the sake of arguement, that it has happened, I have yet to hear anyone acutally say they attended a Mas where it occured. And to move from that to the assumption that it is wide spread defies facts and is a slander to the thousands of priests who don’t.

 

[katherine2]

Rara Avis:

How on earth do you attribute any truth to a statement like that!!!

I would seriously start questioning how accurate your source of information is!

Pope Pius X has put it in these few words: “Don’t pray at Holy Mass, but pray the Holy Mass.” Explaining himself further, His Holiness set forth: “The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice , dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the altar. If you wish to hear Mass as it should be hear, you must follow with eye, heart and mouth all that happens at the altar.”

Where do those words come from? The Pope’s letter endorsing some of the principles of the renewal. St. Pius X was the first Pope to begin to embrace aspects of the liturgical movement. He did not found or start it (the monks of Maria Laach and Solesmes might get that honor, if anyone), but he was the first to start to give some of the principles of the movement papal approval. He approved Gregorian Chant (which had died out until its modern revivial) and more grequent communion and other early initiatives of the renewal.

 

[Trelow]

Both extremes are in the wrong.

Either you believe that the Holy See is protected by the Holy Sprit or you don’t.

And if you say you do, but that the Pope ins in error, either before V2 or after, then my friends, I don’t want to be in your shoes come judgment day.

Matthew 12:30-32
He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

My formative years as a Roman Catholic are pre-Vatican II.

Before Vatican II, my church, the Gate of Heaven in South Boston MA., it was standing room only every Sunday and on all Catholic Holidays. The week after Vatican II was announced, half the church was empty, and has been going downhill ever since.

Today the Gate of Heaven church (an 1860 cathedral) has been declared ‘Underutilized’ and slated for closure because of the sexual abuse scandal here in Boston. Out of hundreds of benches, now only the first two rows are partially filled during Sunday service.

I want my Latin Mass. Vatican II was a real big managerial mistake on behalf of the Roman Catholic hierarchy in the Vatican.

 

[Sven]

With Mel Gibson in the spot light and hearing his love a support of a Latin Mass, has perked this post VII born craddle Catholic’s interest. What did I miss. Wouldn’t the common language have unified my non-english speaking Catholics brothers & sisters with me even more? Hmmmm…

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Trelow:

Both extremes are in the wrong.

Either you believe that the Holy See is protected by the Holy Sprit or you don’t.

And if you say you do, but that the Pope ins in error, either before V2 or after, then my friends, I don’t want to be in your shoes come judgment day.

Matthew 12:30-32
He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

It is also extreme to blindly obey any person of authority, especially when they perform questionable acts (hence the sexual abuse scandal in the Church where kids mindlessly obeyed the demands of an authority figure - a homosexual priest). Besides, Vactican II is a managerial blunder, not error in interpreting scripture. I have the experience to have been around before and after Vatican II, and I had more of a feeling of being a Roman Catholic before VII than after!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Exporter,

at the termoil in the Seminaries, the Courts and local parishes since 1985. We didn’t have all these embarrasing events before Vatican II.

Do you know what percentage of priests involved in sex abuse were raised and catechized on the pre-Vatican II Church? The reports show a drastic increase of sex abuse incidents involving the clergy beginning in the 1950s, continuing to rise until it’s peak in the 1970s, then steadily declining. I don’t see how this increase or subsequent decrease is in any way correlated to the Ecumenical council of 1965-1968. Seems rather uncorrelated to me.

Fr. Hans Kung was raised on the Tridentine liturgy, and yet he’s among the most dissident priests we have. So was Fr. Charles Curran. After *Humanae Vitae *was promulgated in 1968, the significant number of defections from the clergy, breaking their priestly oath, some even marrying against canon law and leaving the Church were ALL raised on the pre-Vatican II Church. Seems to me the pre-Vatican II seminaries dropped the ball in producing such disloyal priests during this era.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Here’s an example of what the pre-Vatican II seminaries produced:

Archbishop Leo Binz of St. Paul-Minneapolis … received a new auxiliary bishop in the person of James Shannon, president of St. Thomas College in St. Paul. … Four years later, and one year after Humanae Vitae had been published, Shannon abandoned his priesthood, citing as his reason an inability to accept the encyclical. Weeks after making his public disavowal of the Church’s teaching, he married outside the Church.

(Msgr George Kelly, *Keeping the Church Catholic with John Paul II, *reprinted 1993, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, pg. 40)

It seems to me the seeds of discontent were sown well before Vatican II.